Out of interest, why do you believe in God?

[Chesterton]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here as well. If your moral sense does not come from within...if you could do whatever you please and don't out of fear or having to answer for behavior that would contribute to suffering, than that isn't moral at all. Or, I may not be understanding your post. If so, sorry.

I'm just saying that the atheist view was always been appealing to me. Falling asleep is pleasant. Being asleep is also pleasant, I suppose, unless I have a nightmare. If atheists are right, they'll be no nightmares.

But if Christians are right, there may be nothing but a nightmare for some.

 

[WatersMoon110]

I'm just saying that the atheist view was always been appealing to me. Falling asleep is pleasant. Being asleep is also pleasant, I suppose, unless I have a nightmare. If atheists are right, they'll be no nightmares.

But if Christians are right, there may be nothing but a nightmare for some.

I think I might sort of see what you are getting at: That is it more comforting to believe that death is the end rather than believe in Hell.

But you're missing something very important here: Atheists do not believe in Hell. And, a good number of my atheistic friends were never Christian and never believed in any sort of afterlife. It isn't about believing in no afterlife versus believing in Hell - it is just about believing there isn't any sort of afterlife, Paradise or Punishment.

 

[wanderingone]

Similarly it's not just plain-sailing being a non-believer.

I agree, and I generally choose not to analyze or at least over generalize the reason for belief or non belief. I don't think you'll find any rude commentary from me regarding people who are atheist, and why they believe as they do.

especially if it turns out God is a stylish singer with the voice and sarcasm of Alan Rickman.

I think Rickman's sarcasm might send me fleeing to the dark side .. and if God looks like Rickman I would never recover from imagining God exposing himself (or the lack of himself) to Linda Fiorentino...

 

[Beanieboy]

I have noticed there are many intelligent posters here with a Christian symbol next to their name <staff edit>.

I'm just wondering if you could explain from your own point of view, why you believe God exists?

I'd prefer to hear positive arguments in favour of God, rather than stuff like "well, atheism can't be valid because..."

Also, I expect most of you will say there is a chance that you could be wrong, but for those that think there is no way you could be wrong, I automatically don't want to hear from you, again, no offence.

This is just sheer curiosity more than anything...

Yikes. Well, I can explain it as best I can, but it isn't going to make a lot of sense. It isn't based on proof, but more on faith, more on gut.

Let me give an example. I sometimes see crowds, and what I will notice is that to the eye, they seem to be a huge group of individuals, likes a box of pearls. However, I was watching the crowd, and watched how some people would grab the shirt of the person in front of them, forming a chain, so, it's like of like seeing a jewelry box of pearls, but on pulling out one, you see a string of pearls, neatly connected to some, and not to others. In the same way, I think that we are all interconnected far more than we understand. What we do affects others more than we believe. Each action, and interaction, is like a chain of events, a stone thrown into a pond that ripples out. So, if you are mean to your employee, it ripples down into your kid kicking the dog. However, if you act in loving kindness, it blooms in others acting in kind as well, potentially. So, in my mind's eye, I often envision people connected by a black thread, some closely, some so close that each thought is a vibration to the other so that they seem to read their thoughts, their emotions, and others are more distant, yet connected, still feeling a light pulse. It's like being a cell, and in treating other cells kindly, you strengthen the body, which collectively is God. However, when one has diabetes, the body begins to be at war with itself, fighting itself, and the body becomes weak, and so, the world becomes weak, and we, and God, suffer.

Why do I believe in God? Honestly, I have never not believed. I remember being 3 or 4, and sitting alone in the garden, or walking alone in the yard, talking to God the way I would talk to an imaginary friend, only, God felt very real. I understood God mostly as I was taught, because I listened, and thought that I didn't hear God, didn't feel God, and as I grew older, I thought of God being outside, or up past the stars, and wonder if he was paying attention, if he heard me when I talked.

I think that is why one must "become like a child" to enter the Kingdom - believing in a credibly and understandably hard thing to believe - a God that is love, that is there to help and guide us, that we cannot see, cannot hear, cannot touch. As I grew older, I felt sad, frustrated, and concerned, feeling like my prayers were one sided conversations.

At 18, I spoke in tongues, and had that crazy on-fire thing that such people get because you feel God inside, and your tongue physically moves of its own accord. Words form with no effort, and with no control of your conscious mind. However, you feel amazed that God would even grant you such a thing, that God would care about you in a world of millions, in a world that seemed to constantly be crying out for him.

Then, feeling like I had gone through the looking glass, and was looking at everything from the other side, there was a weird spiritual rift in the Church, something that I had never experienced in my Christian Life before. The Church was singling out gay people, and telling them they could not be members, and some even said that they weren't welcome. AIDS surfaced, and rather than offer compassion, comfort, there was simply blame, and judgement, and saying that God was punishing them. So, as I watched a couple of friends die, there was nothing but jeers for my mourning.

I decided to leave Christianity, but not leave God. At times, I considered it, angered by the followers, but still able to speak in tongues, it was a difficult thing to deny.

What I have come to understand is that God has always spoken to me. I suppose that I wanted a Hollywood deep bass voice as sunlight broke through a cloud. However, it comes in the form of a thought. It's quiet, and the more you listen to it, the stronger it gets. It's what most call their conscience, the thing that weights on our heart, the small voice that says, "You should call your brother" when it seems, by coincidence, that he needed someone to talk to. I also realized that I feel God, because God is literally love, and when I love others, when I am loved, that is God. It is warm, timeless, priceless, and nothing else seems to matter when you truly express it, or receive it. Sometimes it feels overwhelming, bigger than our hearts can hold, and makes me almost cry from the intensity.

I also have come to believe that God is not some angry ogre that thinks that there must be bloodshed for the forgiveness of Sins. Christ forgave sins prior to his resurrection. I believe that man, seeing how Christ turned the Church on its head, humbling the Pharisees while exalting the lowly, the ostricized, taking away the power of the oppressor, of taking away the message not unlike today that you are what you own, and replacing it with you are what your heart shows, and to give wastefully, to love one another without demanding anything in return, made Man need to kill Jesus, to kill the message, to go back to the way things were. However, when one is killed, they become a martyr for the cause, only strengthening it.

So, I think God sent Jesus, if that actually happened, not to sacrifice him, but sent him to show the love of God, and for us to learn how to love by example, even if that means having to give up one's life.

I have come to learn that there is no hell of eternal damnation, but of purification, that one who wants to go to Heaven to tell his unsaved neighbor "I told you so!" or to exalt himself will be miserable in heaven, and must let go of his arrogance, his wish of revenge, his love for self over love for his neighbor, to be released from that, and enter into the Kingdom.

And finally, I have realized that it is not us who needs to get God's attention. It is God that tries so desparately to get ours, constantly. He is with us always, knows our thoughts, feels our pain with us, and loves us unconditionally so that we will know love, love ourselves, and love one another, and live in peace. I never for a moment question or ask if God is listening, because I think of God as my very breath, in and out of my soul, woven, and a part of me.

And even now, I don't know how not to believe in God, anymore than I don't know how to not believe in the Sun.

 

[Beanieboy]

I will add that I do not, because of theological and doctrinal contradictions of my belief, call myself Christian.

So, who is the God that I believe in? I think there is only one, the life force, the breath of us, the love energy, but I believe that as a Christian, I tried hard to grasp God, and in doing so, limited God, tried to put fireflies in a jar and keep them there, only to end up with a jarful of dead fireflies. In releasing God, I would sometimes look up at the night winter sky, and imagine the entire sky being but a thumb, or a cell, of God, of God being all things, and all things being part of God, some enormous huge being, and to grasp such an understanding is like trying to explain the soul to an ant. I allowed myself to see God without prejudice and pride, and saw God in Hinduism, saw the peace of God in Buddhism, saw the devotion and sacredness of God in Islam as my students left class to pray. We want to keep God in a jar, keep a leash on him and call him Ours, and sadly, say that he is not yours. However, a Hindu, born into a Hindu family, from a Hindu family loves their children just as much as a Christian mother loves hers, and knows love. Many yearn for truth, for love, for goodness, and regardless of the religion, find it.

I suppose that is why I only refer to God as God, rather than Father, Son and Holy Spirit, which is the tradition that I was raised in, and know well. I believe that God transcends any label we can give it/him/her, nor should we try to restrict God, label God, classify God, and limit his ability, breadth, his mercy, his gentleness, his power and greatness, his goodness and humility, his sacrifice, or love that is eternal. And when I do this, when I remember the overwhelming power of God and his love, it is easy to believe, easy to trust that goodness will win over, trust that I am more than safe against any evil that comes my way, easy to hold on to hope. And when I remember that it is not my strength that propels me forward, not my love within my heart, but the strength of God, the strength of his love with is unending, which can be given so wastefully becomes it flows eternally within my heart, simply by allowing him to, then I believe without fear, without hesitation. I am one with God, and he with me, and religion becomes irrelevant, for there are no boundaries to his love, and everyone becomes my neighbor.

One time, I had this clear revelation that all God wants is for us to love each other. It isn't about law, or sin. All that he asks is to love our neighbor as ourselves. Immediately, I thought myself inventing nonsense, but no, it was true. It was so simple. And I thought, "Unless one becomes like a child, he cannot enter the Kingdom." Unless one thinks as pure, and as simple, as a child, and realized that all we are called to do is simply live in love toward our neighbor, that we won't enter the kingdom, won't know God. Another time, he told me repeatedly, "I'm not here to judge you. I'm here to heal you." He said it in a thought over and over, and kept asking me why I didn't understand, why I wouldn't accept it, why I asked forgiveness, when there was nothing to forgive.
And when I knew this second revelation, the simplicity, for the first time in my life

everything made perfect sense.

 

[Beanieboy]

Final note: On this forum, it is probably against the rules, but one will often be accused of not being Christian, not being a True Christian (TM), worshipping false gods. In saying that I am not (technically) a Christian any longer, a former poster said, believing Once Saved Always Saved, that I was never a Christian then, because it negated his claim. He claimed that it was impossible for someone to fall away, to be a Christian and leave, despite stories of the Lost Sheep, or even the Prodigal Son.

However, I remember a really cool scene in 6 Feet Under. The girl in art school was a little disillusioned by her career, and her aunt said, "Maybe you aren't a real artist." She became very defensive and said, "What do you mean by that? Why would you say that?" Her aunt responded, "If you would tell me that I'm blue, I would smile and shrug it off, because I know that I'm not. However, what I said bothered you, because somewhere inside, you wonder if it's true."

So, when someone accuses you of whatever, says that there is no such thing as a Gay Christian, that you don't really know God, especially if it is coming from the mouth of a sharp tongued serpent, shrug it off, because you know what you believe, and whatever they accuse you of is of no worth, no more than the foolish Pharisees that laughably accused Jesus of exorcising demons in the name of Satan.

 

[truthshift]

I'm sure you've heard all of the standard fare as far as arguments for theism go, so I won't bother with that.

I'll be honest. Our universe, and more specifically, our planet, have always held me in awe. Just the sheer magnificence of a blade of grass. The world we inhabit is fascinating to me. And while I believe that our universe is an old universe, created primarily by the means that have been and are being discovered by science, I have never been able to believe that the wonders of our universe were not set in motion by something. In all honesty, it seems more likely that some being started things in motion, gave natural processes a 'push', than that all we see is just... there.

Obviously I could be wrong, and you can make the case that I have a "God of the gaps", but I've never been able to shake that view, so even if I were to lose my faith in Christianity I'd probably be a deist.

As far as why I chose Christianity out of the religions I have looked at (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and the Baha'i Faith), I'm sure it's a combination of many things. My location and relatives probably played some part in it. I can't say I wouldn't be a Muslim if I was born in Saudi Arabia. But, I find the teachings of Jesus to be very much aligned with my personal moral beliefs, and think the example of self-sacrifice on the cross is an example to live by, namely valuing the lives of others as highly as your own. Obviously it is difficult to fully live up to such an example, but I try my best.

Great post!

Thanks for being straight forward about your beliefs.

I want to focus particularly on your first paragraph. I am right there with you! I think that the Earth, the galaxy, the universe and all of existence as a whole are awe-inspiring. There are so many things that we do not understand and I find beauty in the unknowns of the world but at the same time I feel that things become more beautiful when I finally understand their "function" for lack of a better word. That's to say, the more I know about things, the more I grow to love their complexity.

However, I disagree with the ideal that something/someone set it all in motion with a purpose. When I look at how complex ecosystems are and how intricate the water cycle is, and so on and so forth. I do not see greater purpose in it, other than what we give it. By that I mean- my understanding is that everything (the earth in this case) started simply enough and over time as environmental factors allowed; the systems that function on our planet built upon themselves much like a city grows in complexity and density as the population rises. The infrastructure is refined over time to allow it to function.

As we see in cases of extinction or species endangerment, there are kinks and bumps in the system that get worked out over time(for better or for worse) but, the system continues to function because there are still parts of the system that continue to exist. The entire thing is dynamic because it adjusts as parts are added and omitted.

I agree that it's fantastic and complex and there is much that we do not understand, but I think that the ideology of it all being too complex to understand for our 'simple' brains is just giving up. Giving the credit to a God just seems like the easy way out. We live in societies and develop communication to pass, gather, and store information as a whole. Perhaps as an individual- we cannot fullly understand it all but as a group, I think we can.

Our recorded existence started relatively late in the "system". What we recognized when we came about is a fully functioning machine that had no recognizable pattern, initially. Our ancestors attributed it to a divine creator with a much greater understanding than ourselves and our own lack of understanding lets us continue to do so.

As we come to know more, I think we will recognize that its not just an awe-inspiring existence but one that we can define for ourselves. I personally believe that what function or purpose that exists in the universe is created by us or other intelligent beings. Cars are created and function for our purposes. Rivers and oceans have been given purpose by us as sources of food and traveling methods. Beyond what purpose we give the world and ourselves, there is nothing but relativity and chaos. I honestly believe that we are our own masters in an infinite and raw universe.

----

Regarding your choice to be a Christian over another religion is probably correct. More than anything, the environment you grew up made the decision for you. However, I believe in personal responsibility and I think it is important for you to start examining your reasoning. I think that it is reasonable to assume that you are Christian for the same reason many people in the middle east are Muslim and for the same reason that many indigenous tribes have their particular beliefs. To me there is nothing that puts any of these belief systems above another. What evidence that is brought to bear for the case of Christianity in particular, is the product of many generations of people working to give Christianity tangibility.

I think that you can say that Christianity fits your moral system for the same reason that you are Christian. It is your environment and upbringing that helps define morals. In a place where those morals along with Christian teachings, are common-place, they will obviously coincide.

Again, thanks for the honest post about why you believe.

-E

 

[Braunwyn]

I'm just saying that the atheist view was always been appealing to me. Falling asleep is pleasant. Being asleep is also pleasant, I suppose, unless I have a nightmare. If atheists are right, they'll be no nightmares.

But if Christians are right, there may be nothing but a nightmare for some.

Well, I certainly don't like the idea of not existing. Even when we're sleeping we're still here and sometimes we know it. As far as belief goes, if it were me, I wouldn't buy into any of that hell bologna. I would go for the loving/compassionate god that had moral sense him/herself.

 

[Funny Fundie]

I have noticed there are many intelligent posters here with a Christian symbol next to their name <staff edit>

I'm just wondering if you could explain from your own point of view, why you believe God exists?

I'd prefer to hear positive arguments in favour of God, rather than stuff like "well, atheism can't be valid because..."

Also, I expect most of you will say there is a chance that you could be wrong, but for those that think there is no way you could be wrong, I automatically don't want to hear from you, again, no offence.

This is just sheer curiosity more than anything...

I always thought that a Godly belief and a reverence for Him was a property of human intelligence--the higher the intelligence, the more potent the Godly belief. This idea of mine is scientifically supported by the fact that most intelligent people in our history (Newton, Pascal, Darwin and even Einstein, albeit somewhat limited in the latter) also have and had very high-grade intellects.
The obverse seems true; that is to say, dumber people seem to be empty and void of Spirit. And just follow the quality of thinking of the higest-grade dumb people, such as Dawkins and a few others: most of their thinking is correct (but they are masters of the obvious), but when these spiritually-stunted individuals try to do anything pedantic or demanding of serendipity, they fall short with low-quality thoughts. Evidence: the spiritually-stunted person who pastes that "CoEXIst" bumper sticker on their car: here we have someone who is marginally smarter than dumb, but too dumb to see the 'COEXIST' utopia for the absurdity it is. I mean, is there anyone who the 'coexistent' person would not coexist with? Of course: everybody. Everybody that does not believe in a 'COEXIST' utopia. Such an individual would be intolerant to someone like Pat Robertson, while yelling at Pat Robertson, accusing Robertson of intolerance.

The spiritually-inept: the dumbest humans an almighty God created.

 

[Funny Fundie]

It's just a pure flame.

Typical.

I'd agree, bro and recommend you report this call-out thread. I can't do it, because the Administrators here love me about as much as Karl Marx loves Mother Theresa so it will all fall on deaf ears...

 

[truthshift]

The spiritually-inept: the dumbest humans an almighty God created.

Haha, so, if we're created to be inept spiritually(whatever that means), doesn't that mean that it's God's fault? Doesn't sound that fair to me.

 

[Beanieboy]

I'm just saying that the atheist view was always been appealing to me. Falling asleep is pleasant. Being asleep is also pleasant, I suppose, unless I have a nightmare. If atheists are right, they'll be no nightmares.

But if Christians are right, there may be nothing but a nightmare for some.

If Christians are right, they will have to explain to God why, rather than be fishers of men, they jeered and mocked others, even seeming to find secret glee, in souls being lost that Christ gave his very life for.

That seems a much more terrible nightmare, and one which makes me question if some Christians are truly save, if the rejoice in the lost burning in hell. It is not the Father above that they are serving, but the one below.

Now, think about that as you fall asleep.

 

[HighwayMan]

Based on the mystery of the origins of the universe (and existence itself), I'd say I'm 50-50 on the possibility of the divine. Based on philosophical thinkings on the values and ideologies of the human being (or what some would call the spirit), I'd say I'm learning more towards believing. Yet, even this 50-50 split seems finely tuned to me.

 

[Garyzenuf]

I always thought that a Godly belief and a reverence for Him was a property of human intelligence--the higher the intelligence, the more potent the Godly belief...

You thought wrong, try again.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

I'd agree with beanieboy for the most part.

To my discredit, there have been long periods of my life were I have tried to believe there was no God.
Actually trying to believe something that I didn't think was true was a very miserable exercise.
I did it because I could see the incredible comfort in the atheistic world view.
I most earnestly did not want to submit my will to another Being. Unfortunately I could not get away from the fact that said Being exists and that I was trying to deceive myself.

What I said in my previous post on this thread has nothing to do with morality per se; rather, in the words of Quintus Maximus (or Russell Crowe) "What I do today echoes in eternity."
That's a frightening thought, but one I'll have to live with because trying to believe something I find unbelievable is cowardly and actually very difficult.

YNWA
Mike.

 

[nesian]

[cliche]Because I can![/cliche]

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I'd agree, bro and recommend you report this call-out thread. I can't do it, because the Administrators here love me about as much as Karl Marx loves Mother Theresa so it will all fall on deaf ears...

Yeah, that's a flame, but you claiming all non-religious people are stupid isn't.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

You fail at understanding the human condition.

Quite possibly so Levi. But I do understand this much : there is no one, homogenous human condition. There are human conditions that vary depending on the human in question, their habits and their temperament.
Working as a doctor, I'm in somewhat of a privileged position in that many people (some of whom are dying and know they are) will speak to me about their hopes and fears. I've learned a little bit from this, enough to come to the conclusion that you are wrong re your suspicions for the motivation behind many people's theism.

YNWA
Mike.

 

[David Brider]

Honest answer to the OP: it just makes sense to me. I mean, leaving aside the Christianity aspect of it, I can't help thinking that even if I ceased to be a Christian I'd continue to be a theist of some description, or possibly a deist, because all things considered it makes more sense to me that there is some sort of God/god/gods/goddess/goddesses (delete as applicable) than that there isn't. That's partly from a Paley's Watch point-of-view (without wishing to get embroiled in a creationism/evolution debate, the universe seems to me to bear the hallmarks of having been designed rather than being the result of random happenstance), and partly because taking into account all the people over the ages who claim to have had some sort of direct communication with God, I find it hard to believe that they were all lying/deluded/insane. Of course, there is the problem that not all of them were coming from the Christian tradition and therefore their testimonies don't necessarily agree with my theology on the exact details, but *meh* *handwaves* I'm sure it'll all make sense in the long run...

Hope that helps.

David.

 

[PantsMcFist]

Well, I grew up a Christian, so that will affect what I believe about God, but I've tried to simplify my faith, in terms of cutting it loose from the cultural interpretations and values which are often placed on God through contemporary Christianity.

First and foremost, my own life experiences suggest to me that the existence is not materialistic by nature. Secondly, I find the universe to be ordered logically and precisely. I believe that the physical universe must have a cause outside of it, which is where God comes in.

I think the logical consistency of the universe is indicative of that which brought it into being, so I think that we can meaningfully infer things about the nature of this Creator through reason and logic. To that end, I find the kalaam cosmological argument the best expression of how I think about God. William Lane Craig has done some great work on this concept, and has several debates on youtube. To a lesser extent, I also find the ontological argument sound, though less convincing.