Our God The Consuming Fire
- Thread starter FineLinen
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Scratch your head all you want , it seems you have chosen to reject the gospel of Jesus according to what is written in the BIBLE in favor of a man-/woman created doctrine where there is no punishment for sin.I can't prove something isn't there
The idea that His grace is limited to "those who believe in Him" is what I've been referring to. We're instructed to love even our enemies - do you believe WE are to be more loving and merciful than God?
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You made a false accusation that what I state is not in the Bible , when indeed it is.
Paul taught that salvation was to everyone THAT BELIEVETH.
Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
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Psalm 86:5
For thou, Lord, art good,
and ready to forgive;
and plenteous in mercy
unto
all them that call
upon thee.
Romans 3:23"22 And THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS from God comes through FAITH in Jesus Christ to all who BELIEVE There is no distinction,For thou, Lord, art good,
and ready to forgive;
and plenteous in mercy
unto
all them that call
upon thee.
23 For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.…
Get that?? That is what is called the Gospel of Jesus.
spoken by Apostle Paul in Romans 3:23 --- the righteousness from GOD comes through FAITH in JESUS to all who BELIEVE.
That is called Salvation and it's conditional upon faith in Jesus Christ to all who Believe.
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Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment; 28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment; 28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.
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Nowhere is salvation conditional!
Our Father is the God of salvation. He is NOT a potential Saviour: He IS Saviour of ALL mankind with a special emphasis upon the "especially" of His love and grace.
Definition of POTENTIAL
Please welcome the One who swallows death in victory
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Do not be silly.
The Father of all fathers punishes sin. The purpose for punishment is not mindless unending punishment, but punishment of such calibre it brings change and transformation.
The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases.
Never
Not ever.
At no time.
Not in any degree.
Not under any condition.
Ceases
To come to an end.
To no longer continue.
To cease to exist/ come to an end.
The Steadfast Love of the Lord Never Ceases (lyric video)
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Apostle Paul thought it serious if someone was preaching a different gospel then the one the Apostles taught.
Galatians 1:8 " 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse!
9As we have said before, so now I say again:
If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse!…"
Galatians 1:8 " 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse!
9As we have said before, so now I say again:
If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse!…"
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(The following was written by John R Gavazzoni as one of several explanations by members of a Christian internet forum sent to a brother in Christ who had asked if anyone could help him understand the meaning of the lake of fire and brimstone.)
Please consider the following very general attempt to answer your question. I believe the association of fire with purification in both old and new testaments is easily traceable. I won’t list proof texts, but they do abound, and probably others will take the time to present those in detail. In the old testament the prophetic analogy of silver being purified by fire is classically representative of the purification theme of the Bible.
I would say that, typically true of him, Paul, gets to the heart of the matter when he writes about every man’s work being tried by fire, yet the man, himself, being saved. John, whose theology parallels Paul’s more explicit style, with a more implicit style of his own, makes it a point to call the lake in question not only the lake of fire, but also of brimstone, which is an old word for sulfur. With sulfur being a common agent of ceremonial purification in temples of worship in ancient times, I think the association is obvious in the Book of Revelation.
Now, to specifically address the possibility that John means to convey destruction rather than purification, let me say that neither scripture nor science recognizes the destruction of anything in the sense of annihilation, that is, of anything being reduced to a state of absolute nothingness. Destruction does not render anything nonexistent, but rather incapable of carrying out its function, as in the destruction of a tank in warfare. The mass of metal is still there, but it can’t function as a tank any longer.
Even if you were to vaporize the tank completely, yet, it’s intrinsic elements would still exist in other forms. Contrary to conventional theology, all things were not created from nothing, and none of the things that have been created will ever face nonexistence, and by that I mean nonexistence in any form. All created things are subject to change, change in form, but not subject to losing their intrinsic existence.
So, what we have in the process of purification by fire is, first, a separation of the object of purification from all that defiles it, all that is foreign to it’s intrinsic constitution, and then the removal of the corrupting element(s). But, as all analogies and parables fall short, in some way, of fully representing the truth they are meant to convey, so is the case here. (I think Bible teachers speak of parables not walking on all fours).
In the case of death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire and a separating of these foreign elements of corruption from the persons who are subjected to the divine flame, it is clear that the persons are saved; they are delivered from the corruption to which they were subjected, but other scripture indicates that death, that last (ultimate) enemy is not merely discarded, but is swallowed up in victory.
I think the Holy Spirit very specifically inspired Paul to write of swallowing up and not mere discarding and certainly not annihilation. When something is swallowed it undergoes a quite remarkable process whereby it becomes, physically speaking, part and parcel of the swallower himself. It is transformed into blood, bone and tissue and has become integral to the person’s body. The Book of Hebrews uses the analogy of shaking. Everything that can be shaken will be removed by that shaking, but what then?
This brings us to the depth and extent of reconciliation in the economy of God. Certainly, God has reconciled the alienated person to Himself in Christ, that is undeniable in the scripture, but beyond that, God does not defeat death and the place/Hades [the capacity and potential] of death, by merely removing them. He takes alienation, enmity and hostility themselves and reconstitutes them back into the grace out of which they first proceeded. In a word, God defeats his enemies by transforming them into friends.
At the heart of the message of the Book of Revelation is majestic statement of Him who sits upon the throne, “Behold, I make ALL THINGS new.” God loses nothing. The loss of anything does not compute when it comes to God. He created good and evil, the prophet said, and in the end, all things return to God that “He might be all in all.”
What a God,
John R. Gavazzoni
Index Of Writings Of John Gavazzoni
Please consider the following very general attempt to answer your question. I believe the association of fire with purification in both old and new testaments is easily traceable. I won’t list proof texts, but they do abound, and probably others will take the time to present those in detail. In the old testament the prophetic analogy of silver being purified by fire is classically representative of the purification theme of the Bible.
I would say that, typically true of him, Paul, gets to the heart of the matter when he writes about every man’s work being tried by fire, yet the man, himself, being saved. John, whose theology parallels Paul’s more explicit style, with a more implicit style of his own, makes it a point to call the lake in question not only the lake of fire, but also of brimstone, which is an old word for sulfur. With sulfur being a common agent of ceremonial purification in temples of worship in ancient times, I think the association is obvious in the Book of Revelation.
Now, to specifically address the possibility that John means to convey destruction rather than purification, let me say that neither scripture nor science recognizes the destruction of anything in the sense of annihilation, that is, of anything being reduced to a state of absolute nothingness. Destruction does not render anything nonexistent, but rather incapable of carrying out its function, as in the destruction of a tank in warfare. The mass of metal is still there, but it can’t function as a tank any longer.
Even if you were to vaporize the tank completely, yet, it’s intrinsic elements would still exist in other forms. Contrary to conventional theology, all things were not created from nothing, and none of the things that have been created will ever face nonexistence, and by that I mean nonexistence in any form. All created things are subject to change, change in form, but not subject to losing their intrinsic existence.
So, what we have in the process of purification by fire is, first, a separation of the object of purification from all that defiles it, all that is foreign to it’s intrinsic constitution, and then the removal of the corrupting element(s). But, as all analogies and parables fall short, in some way, of fully representing the truth they are meant to convey, so is the case here. (I think Bible teachers speak of parables not walking on all fours).
In the case of death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire and a separating of these foreign elements of corruption from the persons who are subjected to the divine flame, it is clear that the persons are saved; they are delivered from the corruption to which they were subjected, but other scripture indicates that death, that last (ultimate) enemy is not merely discarded, but is swallowed up in victory.
I think the Holy Spirit very specifically inspired Paul to write of swallowing up and not mere discarding and certainly not annihilation. When something is swallowed it undergoes a quite remarkable process whereby it becomes, physically speaking, part and parcel of the swallower himself. It is transformed into blood, bone and tissue and has become integral to the person’s body. The Book of Hebrews uses the analogy of shaking. Everything that can be shaken will be removed by that shaking, but what then?
This brings us to the depth and extent of reconciliation in the economy of God. Certainly, God has reconciled the alienated person to Himself in Christ, that is undeniable in the scripture, but beyond that, God does not defeat death and the place/Hades [the capacity and potential] of death, by merely removing them. He takes alienation, enmity and hostility themselves and reconstitutes them back into the grace out of which they first proceeded. In a word, God defeats his enemies by transforming them into friends.
At the heart of the message of the Book of Revelation is majestic statement of Him who sits upon the throne, “Behold, I make ALL THINGS new.” God loses nothing. The loss of anything does not compute when it comes to God. He created good and evil, the prophet said, and in the end, all things return to God that “He might be all in all.”
What a God,
John R. Gavazzoni
Index Of Writings Of John Gavazzoni
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You've been arguing that God's grace expires and He punishes in a tormenting way in hell (instead of healing and restoring us). That's what I don't see in Scripture. Instead I see this as a theme of His overall plan:
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them" (2 Cor. 5:19).
Salvation FROM what, though....is the question? Salvation from sin or salvation from hell?
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- Sep 8, 2018
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Yes Really.
What do you do with John 12:32. I will draw all people to myself. Is this true or not?
What about Phil 2:10 the every knee shall bow and tongue confess passage?
Which is the same as Isa 45:22,23.
They shall confess that in God alone they have righteousness and strength...who? All people!
But of course this cannot be what God means...we must correct and explain these clear statements away by our eternal everlasting forever and ever punishment doctrines. Right?
As I said, I have left that behind.
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Yes and the same in Jeremiah 7. They did this abominable thing, burning their children in the fire, in the valley of the sons of Hinnom--in Greek it is called Gehenna. And as you see burning people in a fire does not originate with Father or ever enter His pure mind to do such a wicked thing.
The destructive effects of Hell teaching - The destructive effects of Hell teachings
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