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Our Angels

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by healthwoman, Feb 15, 2003.

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  1. healthwoman

    healthwoman Clergy Woman

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    In Acts 12:16 where they say the person at the door could not have been Peter (Peter was in jail at the time), they conclude that it must be his angel. This is the only place in the bible where it talks about a facial likeness between someone and an angel. I wonder if the angels that watch over us (some call them guardian angels) look like us in the face? And going back even further-- could God have made US to facially resemble them? They were created long before us. Just a thought.

    Linda :angel:
     
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  2. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    +7
    Maybe they ARE us. Meaning, maybe the angel of Peter is actually Peter, but in a different time and place, ie. heaven. Maybe conciousness goes further and deeper than we realize.

    So if that is true, the angel of the Lord would actually be the Lord Himself in different forms.

    Acts 12:15 And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel. 16 But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened the door, and saw him, they were astonished. 17 But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison.

    But in this case it looks like it was the Lord that had released Peter from prison, and it was the real Peter before them, not an angel.

    Acts 12:18 Now as soon as it was day, there was no small stir among the soldiers, what was become of Peter. 19 And when Herod had sought for him, and found him not, he examined the keepers, and commanded that they should be put to death.

    Just after that it seems Peter could not be found in the prison and Herod had the guards killed.
     
  3. healthwoman

    healthwoman Clergy Woman

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    Wow! I hadn't thought of that. I guess as humans we tend only to think in this demension. This will certainly give me something new to meditate on. (Which is why I posted this in the first place) Thanks!

    Linda
     
  4. BT

    BT Fanatic

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    People people people. CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT. Start reading in Acts 12:8. You've got the story all wrong. Here's a paraphrase..

    An angel came and got Peter out of Jail "Acts 12:8"
    He brought him out, so Peter goes to his friends house. "Acts 12:12"
    He knocks on the gate and Rhoda sees him and is amazed and doesn't even think to open the gate but runs into the house to tell everyone that Peter is there. "Acts 12:14"
    So Peter keeps on knocking and eventually they open the door for him. "Acts 12:16"
    Peter tells them that the LORD has brought him out of the prison."Acts 12:17"
    Herod finds out Peter is not in the prison (cause he's at his friends house) and orders the guards put to death. "Acts 12:19"

    Healthwoman that's the truth of the account. How you gleaned anything else from it... beyond me.

    Duane that's a load of false doctrine if ever I heard it.
    "Just after that it seems Peter could not be found in the prison and Herod had the guards killed."

    It seems Peter could not be found in the prison because HE WASN'T THERE.

    We are not angels, we don't become angels when we die, angels are one of God's creations and we are another. Totally seperate. Yeeeesh.
     
  5. healthwoman

    healthwoman Clergy Woman

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    <DIR><SUP>
    </SUP></DIR>




    <DIR><SUP>And when she knew Peter's voice she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in and told how Peter stood before the gate. And they said unto her 'thou art mad'. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they 'it is his angel. But Peter continued knocking and when they had opened the door and saw him they were astonished</SUP>
    </DIR>




    <DIR><SUP>The verse speaks for itself. They didn't believe her when she said Peter was at the door. They told her "it is his angel" which is why I believe our angels resemble us</SUP>
    </DIR>




    <DIR><SUP>Linda</DIR></SUP>
     
  6. healthwoman

    healthwoman Clergy Woman

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    I don't know what's going on with my last reply. The code's all screwed up
     
  7. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    +7
    When men see angels, the angels appear to look like men, do they not?
    And when we get to heaven we shall be as the angels, do we not?
    If angels look like men, and we are like the angels in heaven, then how do you differentiate between men and angels in heaven?
    Matthew 22:30 - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
     
  8. healthwoman

    healthwoman Clergy Woman

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    The way we will differentiate is that we'll be higher ranking and have more power. In the resurrection we will be joint-heirs with Christ.
     
  9. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    +7
    Luke 20:36 - Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    We are equal to the angels, look like the angels, and are like the angels.
    Only Christ is higher.

    Again I ask, how do you tell the difference between angels and men in heaven?
    Can you show me a passage that states that we will be higher than the angels?
     
  10. healthwoman

    healthwoman Clergy Woman

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    1john 3:2 says we will be like him. (Christ) If He's higher than angels so will we be!
     
  11. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    +7
    But I think that is referring to the type of body that Christ now has. Christ will still be above us, being the only begotten of the Father.
    But if our "angels" are really us, our spirit, in a future time and place to what we percieve now, then when we get to heaven we will be the angels but in our resurrected bodies. Substance given to spirit.
     
  12. FaithtoFaith

    FaithtoFaith Member

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    Actually there is something that places us higher than the angels, remember the scripture that says "we will judge angels".

    1 Corinthians 6:3
     
  13. FaithtoFaith

    FaithtoFaith Member

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    1 Corinthians 6:3 says we will judge the angels. If we are going to judge them, then we have to be higher than them.

    &nbsp;

    Sorry Guys and Gals, I didn't see my first post show up!&nbsp; Bear with me as I learn how to use this forum!

    &nbsp;:confused:
     
  14. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    +7
    Or angels judge angels.
     
  15. luigi028

    luigi028 New Member

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    Brothers and sisters, please!

    Be careful with this. Don't just read a verse and go the whole 9 yards with it! CONTEXT. If I understand what you guys are saying, then shall we also assume that ghosts exist just because the apostles thought Jesus was a ghost walking over the sea? Come on. Now let's look at a couple of things because there is no doubt that we are NOT angels:

    Now where in earth do you come up that they thought it was his angel based on facial features? The verse reads like this:

    (Acts:13) Peter knocked at the outer entrance, and a servant girl named Rhoda came to answer the door. (14) When she recognized Peter's voice, she was so overjoyed she ran back without opening it and exclaimed, "Peter is at the door!"
    (15) "You're out of your mind," they told her. When she kept insisting that it was so, they said, "It must be his angel."
    (16) But Peter kept on knocking, and when they opened the door and saw him, they were astonished.

    They FIRST thought it was "his angel" and THEN they open door and see him. So clearly they assumed first only to be confronted with the fact that it was no angel, but Peter himself. No chance for a confusion based on facial features.

    Now, don't come and say "oh then why they thought it was his angel?" because it was INCREDIBLE, just like the apostles thought Jesus was a Ghost when they saw him walking over the water. Furthermore, Peter would have been scared to death to not only see and angel but that it resembled him! Its just nonsense.&nbsp;Clearly the bible teaches that we are NOT angels.

    1 Corinthians 6:3
    Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

    and

    Hebrews 1:4
    4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
    5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
    "You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father[1] "[2] ? Or again,
    "I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son"[3] ? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
    "Let all God's angels worship him."[4] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
    "He makes his angels winds,
    his servants flames of fire."[5] 8But about the Son he says,
    "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
    and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    Besides that, the bible speaks about the REDEEMED singing a new song, a song that angels ignore because they do not know what does it mean to be Son. They dont understand what is is to receive something without deserving it, such as salvation through Christ.

    Also, God didnt spare the angels that sinned:

    2 Peter 2:4
    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

    But he has spared us, because once again, we are NOT angels.

    And last but not least:

    Colossians 2:18
    Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

    So please be careful, read in context and don't extrapolate.

    God bless you all,
    028
     
  16. healthwoman

    healthwoman Clergy Woman

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    I never said we were angels. I do however still believe that we have angels that existed prior to our creation that resemble us facially.
     
  17. Ratioann

    Ratioann Regular Member

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    Why would God make us resemble angels facially?
     
  18. healthwoman

    healthwoman Clergy Woman

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    I don't know the answer to that, but I believe it's true.
     
  19. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    +7
    Well, the thing with Peter was already cleared up. It was not an angel, it was Peter whom the Lord had let out of the prison.

    Those verses in Hebrews are clearly speaking of the Lord. And Jesus will always be above us and the angels.

    As for us being the angels after we get to heaven, I am really not trying to stretch anything except maybe how you all percieve our reality. We are compared to the angels directly. The Bible clearly says we will be equal to, and like the angels. Just because it also says that we will judge the angels does not change the nature of either the angels or us. When we get to heaven it is because we will be the children of the resurrection. We will be like the angels, and equal to them, but with resurrected bodies.

    Nothing that has been said should lead anyone to think they should worship angels, especially if men and angels are the same creatures.

    We, when we are in heaven, as the angels in heaven do, will still worship God Almighty, whose name Jesus inherited. Jesus will still be the tangible, visable God Almighty. And He will always be the one leading us to His Father as we are being perfected in the Holy Spirit.

    Everything was established in Light before it ever became matter. The substance follows the Light. What has happened in Light, will happen again in substance as the Body of God grows.
    Ecclesiastes 3:15 - That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
     
  20. BT

    BT Fanatic

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    Healthwoman are you a Roman Catholic?

    I know that they believe in gaurdian angels.. mabey that's where you're getting the false doctrine from?

    Other than that "Christian" doctrine doesn't teach "guardian angels".. sure there are lots of angels and "Sometimes" they come in human likeness but we don't have a particular angel that is responsible for taking care of us. That's not a Biblical concept..

    Here's a reference to this verse taken from the Albert Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

    "It is his angel. Any way of accounting for it rather than to admit the simple fact, or to ascertain the simple truth. All this was produced by the little hope which they had of his release, and their earnest desire that it should be so. It was just such a state of mind as is indicated when we say, "the news is too good to be believed." The expression it is his angel may mean, that they supposed the tutelary guardian, or angel appointed to attend Peter, had come to announce something respecting him, and that he had assumed the voice and form of Peter, in order to render them certain that he came from him. This notion arose from the common belief of the Jews, that each individual had assigned to him, at birth, a celestial spirit, whose office it was to guard and defend him through life. Cmt. on Mt 18:10. That the Jews entertained this opinion is clear from their writings. (See Kuin”el.) Lightfoot thinks that they who were assembled supposed that this angel had assumed the voice and manner of Peter, in order to intimate to them that he was about to die, and to excite them to earnest prayer that he might die with constancy and firmness. Whatever their opinions were, however, it proves nothing on these points. There is no evidence that they were inspired in these opinions; nor are their notions countenanced by the Scriptures. They were the mere common traditions of the Jews, and prove nothing in regard to the truth of the opinion one way or the other."

    Matthew 18:10 is the verse that some have misunderstood as the "guardian angel" verse

    "Take heed that you despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven."

    The part "their angels" is the one that has confused people. Here is a good comentary from St. Jerome on this verse.
    "t is St. Jerome's note upon this place, That great is the dignity of these little ones, seeing every one of them from his birth
    hath an angel delegated to preserve him. But though others think that the opinion of a tutelary angel, or of one particular
    angel's having the custody of one particular saint, as his continual charge, has not a sufficient foundation in the holy scriptures! yet all the angels in heaven are ministering spirits unto them; and though they do not always attend upon their person (for they stand before the face of God) yet it is to to receive his commands, either to help them in their exigencies, or
    punish those that injure them."

    Anyway someone else posted that we become angels. Another doctrine of the Catholic church that I have heard that is absurd. As previously stated we are not angels, we do not become angels ever. You can't change an apple to an orange no matter how much you believe you can.
     
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