Other than your own, what liturgical tradition is your favorite?

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,128
5,686
49
The Wild West
✟472,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I love all the Orthodox rites, but other than my own I would have to say the Syriac Orthodox. The Armenians have much more pleasing music (to my western ears, anyway; it is easily the most familiar-sounding if you come from a western, Greco-Roman/Chalcedonian background, as I do), but I think the Syriacs strike a good balance between the reedy sharpness and extremely melismatic Coptic chant (which in some cases, like with some of the longer Holy Week hymns like "Pekthronos", can get a bit difficult to follow) and the more predictably metered other kinds of chant.

It also helps in my case personally that the Syriac Orthodox liturgies are the only ones outside of the Coptic that I have really studied, thanks to the relative scarcity of reasonably-priced English-language works on the Ethiopian liturgies. So I feel like I can sort of 'get the hang' of the Syriac Orthodox qurbono easier than some other form that I'm less familiar with, as beautiful as those of the Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Armenians certainly are.

Plus it just sounds really good in English, if you have a proper bilingual priest:


As for those outside of my communion, I quite like the Mozarabic liturgy, though I only know the reconstruction of Fr. Cisneros (same as everyone else, I guess). The Ambrosian liturgy is also very pleasing, though I think I still prefer the Mozarabic.

We have very similiar tastes. Although I love Syriac Orthodox music when it is sung in a Suroyo (ethnically Syriac) church as opposed to a Nasrani church; I don’t think the music sounds as good when translated into Malayalam.

The Mozarabic Rite does have one huge advantage over the Ambrosian Rite and that is, since it is barely used, it was not really substantially altered under Sacrosanctum Concilium. Whereas the Ambrosian Rite, because Pope Paul VI was, if I recall correctly, a former archbishop of Milan, got lots of extra attention.
 
Upvote 0

Shane R

Priest
Site Supporter
Jan 18, 2012
2,282
1,102
Southeast Ohio
✟565,348.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Widowed
I love all the Orthodox rites, but other than my own I would have to say the Syriac Orthodox. The Armenians have much more pleasing music (to my western ears, anyway; it is easily the most familiar-sounding if you come from a western, Greco-Roman/Chalcedonian background, as I do), but I think the Syriacs strike a good balance between the reedy sharpness and extremely melismatic Coptic chant (which in some cases, like with some of the longer Holy Week hymns like "Pekthronos", can get a bit difficult to follow) and the more predictably metered other kinds of chant.

It also helps in my case personally that the Syriac Orthodox liturgies are the only ones outside of the Coptic that I have really studied, thanks to the relative scarcity of reasonably-priced English-language works on the Ethiopian liturgies. So I feel like I can sort of 'get the hang' of the Syriac Orthodox qurbono easier than some other form that I'm less familiar with, as beautiful as those of the Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Armenians certainly are.

Plus it just sounds really good in English, if you have a proper bilingual priest:


As for those outside of my communion, I quite like the Mozarabic liturgy, though I only know the reconstruction of Fr. Cisneros (same as everyone else, I guess). The Ambrosian liturgy is also very pleasing, though I think I still prefer the Mozarabic.
An English translation of the Ethiopian Rites.
 

Attachments

  • englishethiopianliturgy.pdf
    976.5 KB · Views: 12
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,128
5,686
49
The Wild West
✟472,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
An English translation of the Ethiopian Rites.

I have that! Note the Liturgy of the Apostles, which is based on the Anaphora of Hippolytus, which in turn is the basis of Eucharistic Prayer B in Rite II of the 1979 BCP (and Eucharistic Prayer 2 in the Novus Ordo Missae). Also note the Antiochene order of the anaphoras, which initially may seem odd given that the Ethiopian church was historically part of the Coptic Church, until the 20th century, however, the Ethiopians were assisted in the development of their liturgy by a group of seven Syriac monks, who are venerated as saints, which is why we see features in common with Antiochene liturgies in general and West Syriac (Syriac Orthodox, Maronite Catholic and Syriac Catholic) liturgies in particular, in terms of the structure of the services, the placement of the Institution Narrative and the Epiclesis, and the large number of anaphorae.

For me the most interesting Ethiopian anaphora is that of St. Mary, which features more Marian content than any other Eucharistic text I have encountered.

We see 14 anaphoras here, but there could be others; there is a fantastic wealth of untranslated and obscure Ethiopian Orthodox material, and very few scholars know the Ge’ez language in which they were written. Ge’ez writing features integrated musical notation which I believe is the oldest system of notation in continuous use, followed by Byzantine notation and some Renaissance era Western systems of notationq (Coptic, Assyrian and Syriac chant historically was not notated but memorized, with some room for improvization in the priest or bishop’s part of the Coptic Tasbeha system of chant).

There are something like 86 anaphoras in the liturgical library of the Syriac Orthodox Church, but the 14 most popular are on the following website, in case you are unaware of it:

Anaphora: Table of Contents
 
Upvote 0

Till Schilling

Active Member
Feb 3, 2021
184
121
Bern, Switzerland
✟17,430.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I sympathize with your position, but there is the problem of 1 Corinthians 11:27-34; churches that practice closed communion do so for the most part because they are concerned of harm coming to people who partake unworthily, not discerning the body and blood of our Lord.

In addition to the question debated here of whether this is a correct reading of 1Cor 11:29 - and I feel it is NOT but is reading a text of the 1st century through the lenses of a debate of the 16th century - I wonder which of the churches who practice closed communion base their practice on this. Other than confessional Lutherans as in the LCMS. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church in my understanding do not allow believers from other denominations to participate as they do not see them as belonging to the church of Christ. It is ecclesiology that informs their practice of closed communion. Not concern for people being harmed.

Personally I have no problem with that. They are just faithful to their beliefs. But I can see how it could be off-putting not to be regarded a Christian.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Till Schilling

Active Member
Feb 3, 2021
184
121
Bern, Switzerland
✟17,430.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
More than 20 years ago I had the opportunity to join a small group of Syrian orthodox believers - and, no, I don’t know which exact group that was and whether they pray in Arabic or Aramaic - in their Easter liturgy. It was very moving. As they had to use a general gathering room rather than a church they were all gathered, even crowded around their priest. Very different from what I have seen in liturgies in Orthodox churches. And they were singing all the time. And moving around together. It was special.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,121
4,191
Yorktown VA
✟176,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
In addition to the question debated here of whether this is a correct reading of 1Cor 11:29 - and I feel it is NOT but is reading a text of the 1st century through the lenses of a debate of the 16th century - I wonder which of the churches who practice closed communion base their practice on this. Other than confessional Lutherans as in the LCMS. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church in my understanding do not allow believers from other denominations to participate as they do not see them as belonging to the church of Christ. It is ecclesiology that informs their practice of closed communion. Not concern for people being harmed.

Personally I have no problem with that. They are just faithful to their beliefs. But I can see how it could be off-putting not to be regarded a Christian.

I know that a number of Orthodox churches state the 1 Cor passage as one of the reasons for closed communion. But it is also directed at us as well, that we do not take the Eucharist lightly. The first prayer of communion of Basil reads in part, "...And, O Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not the communion of Thy immaculate and life-giving Mysteries be to me for condemnation nor let it make me sick in body or soul through my partaking of them unworthily; but grant me till my last breath to receive without condemnation the portion of Thy holy Things, ..."
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,561
12,110
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,179,025.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
In addition to the question debated here of whether this is a correct reading of 1Cor 11:29 - and I feel it is NOT but is reading a text of the 1st century through the lenses of a debate of the 16th century - I wonder which of the churches who practice closed communion base their practice on this. Other than confessional Lutherans as in the LCMS. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church in my understanding do not allow believers from other denominations to participate as they do not see them as belonging to the church of Christ. It is ecclesiology that informs their practice of closed communion. Not concern for people being harmed.

Personally I have no problem with that. They are just faithful to their beliefs. But I can see how it could be off-putting not to be regarded a Christian.
In the Orthodox Church, Orthodox Christians are not allowed the receive Holy Communion if they have not properly prepared, so it is very much about protecting people from themselves.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Till Schilling

Active Member
Feb 3, 2021
184
121
Bern, Switzerland
✟17,430.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
In the Orthodox Church, Orthodox Christians are not allowed the receive Holy Communion if they have not properly prepared, so it is very much about protecting people from themselves.

Sure, but that is not what my statement was about. It was about the reasons for not allowing Christians from other denominations to commune. I did not say that the Catholic or Orthodox churches are not concerned about their own people. It was in reply to the following thread, as an addition to the statement by the Liturgist:

I must admit, I've drifted this way over time. I used to be much more willing to do so, but these days, I avoid these services unless there's some compelling reason to go. I see the refusal to communicate fellow-Christians as too much of a travesty of what our worship should be.

I sympathize with your position, but there is the problem of 1 Corinthians 11:27-34; churches that practice closed communion do so for the most part because they are concerned of harm coming to people who partake unworthily, not discerning the body and blood of our Lord.

My point was - and correct me if I am wrong - that the Catholic and the Orthodox churches' reason to not grant access to their Eucharist to Christians of other denomination in the first place because of their ecclesiology. Because they believe that those from other denominations are incomplete Christians and should/must first join their denomination, i.e. become Roman-Catholic or Orthodox before they can commune.

Actually, I am not critizing this position. And it does not stop me from attending the Holy Liturgy in an Orthodox church. I would never expect them to offer me to commune with them and in fact I would not want to. There is too much that separates us. No point ignoring it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,359
7,327
Tampa
✟775,929.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Sure, but that is not what my statement was about. It was about the reasons for not allowing Christians from other denominations to commune. I did not say that the Catholic or Orthodox churches are not concerned about their own people. It was in reply to the following thread, as an addition to the statement by the Liturgist:

My point was - and correct me if I am wrong - that the Catholic and the Orthodox churches' reason to not grant access to their Eucharist to Christians of other denomination in the first place because of their ecclesiology. Because they believe that those from other denominations are incomplete Christians and should/must first join their denomination, i.e. become Roman-Catholic or Orthodox before they can commune.

You have the idea, but not a complete picture. They, in general, don't allow it because they believe that you should be in agreement with what "the Church" teaches, so that you know you have all the correct beliefs and will not put condemnation upon yourself. So, not that you have to "join" their denomination, but that you need to believe in the fullness of what they believe to be the fullness of the church. The Catholic church is more liberal on allowing other denominations, particularly the Apostolic ones, to commune when needed.

Now, in practice it can vary in real life. My Lutheran grandfather and grandmother were given communion from a Catholic priest (ironically one I came to know personally later) while he was in the hospital. The priest knew that he was Catholic, but elected to do so anyways as my grandfather was close to death.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Till Schilling

Active Member
Feb 3, 2021
184
121
Bern, Switzerland
✟17,430.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
You have the idea, but not a complete picture. They, in general, don't allow it because they believe that you should be in agreement with what "the Church" teaches, so that you know you have all the correct beliefs and will not put condemnation upon yourself. So, not that you have to "join" their denomination, but that you need to believe in the fullness of what they believe to be the fullness of the church.
At the point of believing all that, you would naturally want to join / be welcomed into that particular denomination because you would consider it to be the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church.

The point of welcoming Christians from other denominations at the Lord's table however is precisely to give meaning to the idea that they are also Christians and also belong to Christ's church even though they might believe differently in some aspects.

Let me again emphasize that I do not object to the closed communion practice of the Catholic and the Orthodox church. And that, to come back to the OP, as a guest I value the beauty of their liturgy very much. At least in the case of the Orthodox church. I am, however, not kidding myself on the huge doctrinal differences.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tampasteve
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,359
7,327
Tampa
✟775,929.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
At the point of believing all that, you would naturally want to join / be welcomed into that particular denomination because you would consider it to be the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church.

The point of welcoming Christians from other denominations at the Lord's table however is precisely to give meaning to the idea that they are also Christians and also belong to Christ's church even though they might believe differently in some aspects.

Let me again emphasize that I do not object to the closed communion practice of the Catholic and the Orthodox church. And that, to come back to the OP, as a guest I value the beauty of their liturgy very much. At least in the case of the Orthodox church. I am, however, not kidding myself on the huge doctrinal differences.
I agree with all of the above. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,128
5,686
49
The Wild West
✟472,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
At the point of believing all that, you would naturally want to join / be welcomed into that particular denomination because you would consider it to be the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church.

The point of welcoming Christians from other denominations at the Lord's table however is precisely to give meaning to the idea that they are also Christians and also belong to Christ's church even though they might believe differently in some aspects.

Let me again emphasize that I do not object to the closed communion practice of the Catholic and the Orthodox church. And that, to come back to the OP, as a guest I value the beauty of their liturgy very much. At least in the case of the Orthodox church. I am, however, not kidding myself on the huge doctrinal differences.

The LCMS, WELS and other Protestant churches, some Lutheran, some not, practice closed communion. WELS in particular pretty much only gives communion to people confirmed in it.

Of the Oriental Orthodox, the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch and the Coptic church regularly commune Eastern Orthodox, and some Syriac Orthodox parishes are known for communing Roman Catholics. Then you have the Malankara Independent Syrian Church, which is in communion with the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which is part of the Anglican Communion (or in communion with it, via the Church of South India).
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,128
5,686
49
The Wild West
✟472,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
By the way I have heard that of the churches of the orient, only the Eastern Orthodox clergy are actually likely to refuse to communicate someone, and this varies from parish to parish, and between the different EO churches, and then you have the Old Calendarist schism, and I have heard they are severe to the point of wanting to rebaptize other EOs. And I imagine if one tried to join the Russian Old Believers who are not in communion with the MP one would be rebaptized, even in the case of the priestless Old Believers, who you can find in rural Oregon, who don’t have the Eucharist because they believe the Czar killed all of the Orthodox bishops and therefore the last true priest died centuries ago. There apparently were some priestless sects that even discontinued marriage based on the Eastern Christian idea that the priest performs the wedding and does not merely witnesses it, but rather sacramentally united the bride and groom in the “Crowning” liturgy.

At the risk of sounding like a nasty clericalist snob, which I am not, I do actually find this theory appealing on some levels, that being the idea of marriage as not merely a sacrament but one of such holiness that the priest or I suppose a bishop has to do it, whereas in an emergency the ancient custom of the church is that anyone can baptize (also interestingly, this I think is conceptually related to the fact that in the ancient church the most minor of minor orders was that of exorcist, in some texts, they ranked lower than doorkeepers, who were in those doors tonsured).

Now, the weird thing about the matrionial rite is the Oriental view that the priest performs the marriage vs the Occidental view that the couples perform the sacrament on each other clashes with the views of the Roman and Orthodox on divorce and remarriage. The Orthodox will remarry but only a limited number of times, and with penitential characteristics to the liturgy, which is an approach I kind of like as a pastoral care option that entails the Eastern concept of oikonomia, wherein strict rules are waved to make salvation more accessible.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,205
19,058
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,504,304.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
At the risk of sounding like a nasty clericalist snob, which I am not, I do actually find this theory appealing on some levels, that being the idea of marriage as not merely a sacrament but one of such holiness that the priest or I suppose a bishop has to do it

The difficulty I have with this is that it suggests that people married without those rites (in other churches, or as adherents of other faiths, or in secular settings) are not "really" or properly married. I'm not keen on setting up a situation where Christians look down on others with the view that "My marriage is better/more real than yours."

The Orthodox will remarry but only a limited number of times, and with penitential characteristics to the liturgy, which is an approach I kind of like as a pastoral care option that entails the Eastern concept of oikonomia, wherein strict rules are waved to make salvation more accessible.

It's interesting that you think that's a pastoral option; in all my reading on it I've come to the exact opposite conclusion. Imagine, for example, that you're getting married for the first time, but to someone whose spouse died; and you're only allowed a "penitential" wedding and marriage? As if it is something to be ashamed of? I think it's the exact opposite of pastoral. It's an exercise in public humiliation.

In the bigger picture, I think Christians need to remember that marriage, as a human custom, far predates the Church and has always occurred outside the Church as well as inside it; we do not "own" marriage, and although we might want to regulate it in line with Christian norms, any definition of marriage which makes it something particular to the church is, among other problems, spectacularly historically and socially dishonest.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Till Schilling

Active Member
Feb 3, 2021
184
121
Bern, Switzerland
✟17,430.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
In the bigger picture, I think Christians need to remember that marriage, as a human custom, far predates the Church and has always occurred outside the Church as well as inside it; we do not "own" marriage, and although we might want to regulate it in line with Christian norms, any definition of marriage which makes it something particular to the church is, among other problems, spectacularly historically and socially dishonest.

In Switzerland people can - and do! - now get married to their cat. Or other animals. Not sure how the marriage is consumated though...
 
  • Haha
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,128
5,686
49
The Wild West
✟472,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I know that a number of Orthodox churches state the 1 Cor passage as one of the reasons for closed communion. But it is also directed at us as well, that we do not take the Eucharist lightly. The first prayer of communion of Basil reads in part, "...And, O Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not the communion of Thy immaculate and life-giving Mysteries be to me for condemnation nor let it make me sick in body or soul through my partaking of them unworthily; but grant me till my last breath to receive without condemnation the portion of Thy holy Things, ..."

In the Orthodox Church, Orthodox Christians are not allowed the receive Holy Communion if they have not properly prepared, so it is very much about protecting people from themselves.

Indeed. The Russian Orthodox Eucharistic praxis as explained to me is to confess weekly, ideally at the Saturday night Vigils, and then to partake on Sunday, and more frequently if possible. This is also why St. John of Kronstadt basically implemented a form of public confession, less organized than the Anglican form formerly commonly heard at the start of Choral Evensong, because in Kronstadt’s approach everyone was directed to shout their sins so loudly that no one’s would be audible (this sounds almost Pentecostal to me), and did other things to ease the high frequency reception of the Eucharist.

The Greek Orthodox and in the OO church, the Syriac Orthodox it should be stressed while in theory according to some want you to confess annually, do not require the kind of preparation the Russians require at most parishes.

I think the Russian approach is an ideal to be aimed for, but by ensuring certain preparatory prayers and confiteors are heard in the vernacular, it would not be required. I also greatly for this reason like the Prayer of Humble Access from the Anglican liturgy.

But that said, the Russian approach is not hard; I am reliably informed Russian clergy tend not to penance people during confession, and hear confessions during Terce and Sext before liturgizing. And communication rates at Russian parishes are not shockingly low.

By the way, on a digression I love the EO technical term “liturgize” so I think to save my arthritic hands henceforth when posting in Traditional Theology I am going to use it. I’ve actually heard statements from Orthodox clergy during lectures along the lines of “Another priest and I were preparing to liturgize the other day...” The verbalization of liturgy I really like, because it implies that the liturgical action has a dynamic, salvific and eschatological function, which of course it does!
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,128
5,686
49
The Wild West
✟472,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
In Switzerland people can - and do! - now get married to their cat. Or other animals. Not sure how the marriage is consumated though...

Its an abomination and under the canon laws of the ancient church anyone who did that would be excommunicated for years. If you want a shock, find a copy of the Canons of St. John the Faster, which shows just how severe the Early Church actually was.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,128
5,686
49
The Wild West
✟472,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The difficulty I have with this is that it suggests that people married without those rites (in other churches, or as adherents of other faiths, or in secular settings) are not "really" or properly married. I'm not keen on setting up a situation where Christians look down on others with the view that "My marriage is better/more real than yours."

That’s a valid concern but the Orthodox have a liturgy* for that: blessing an existing marriage, which is a joyful service normally done by the way when receiving married couples into their Church. Their official position is that they don’t know the status of marriages they did not perform, so the Trebnik, or Book of Needs, also called the Euchologion sometimes, but sometimes the Euchologion is something else, provides the liturgical remedy. Also, someone who divorced and remarried before becoming Orthodox, especially if they were not received through baptism, is going to find it very hard to become ordained, whereas a large number of Orthodox priests now serving in North America were married elsewhere before converting.

It's interesting that you think that's a pastoral option; in all my reading on it I've come to the exact opposite conclusion. Imagine, for example, that you're getting married for the first time, but to someone whose spouse died; and you're only allowed a "penitential" wedding and marriage? As if it is something to be ashamed of? I think it's the exact opposite of pastoral. It's an exercise in public humiliation.

That’s nothing new in an Orthodox construct, because all Orthodox liturgies have a cathartic element, and as such, are in part exercises in public humiliation, especially by the Celebrant. Have you read the Pre-Communion Prayers, where frequently everyone, but at least the celebrant, accuses himself not only of sin but of being the worst of sinners?

There is also the part of the anaphora where the priest before communing steps out onto the ambo, bows to the congregation and says “Forgive me, for I have sinned.” The life of their priests is a bit of an antithesis to say, Creflo Dollar, in that it consists of continual self-abasement, and some quit after a few years and return to the laity.

This cathartic aspect to the Orthodox liturgical system, in which fasts are long and there is a constant theme of repentance, may seem alienating to Christians from other traditions, but its also largely hidden by the joyous celebratory superstrate, which tends to be more pronounced than in other liturgical rites, partially I think because of the, at times, imperceptible, contrast between the penitential and joyous strata of the liturgical text.

And by the way, there is no Orthodox service that approaches the Litany from the old BCP in terms of penitential characteristics. John Wesley wanted Methodists to attend the Litany** and fast on Wednesday and Friday, but needless to say, I’ve yet to meet one who does.

And of course when it comes to divorced persons, the Roman Catholics just would not remarry them at all, except with an indulgence, the refusal of which to Henry VIII having lasting and self-evident consequences.

Actually speaking of Roman Catholics, the most penitential liturgical rite I have found is the one used by Carthusian hermit-monks, but it is very hard to become a Carthusian especially over the age of 35, and since the monastic community is self-selecting, pastoral care issues are vastly different (still very present, but different).

In the bigger picture, I think Christians need to remember that marriage, as a human custom, far predates the Church and has always occurred outside the Church as well as inside it; we do not "own" marriage, and although we might want to regulate it in line with Christian norms, any definition of marriage which makes it something particular to the church is, among other problems, spectacularly historically and socially dishonest.

I agree, and I am not worried about that because the Orthodox bless the existing marriages of people who convert. In the Early Church, oikonomia on this issue was even extended to polygamists (this is most likely what Paul meant when he told Timothy the bishop should be “the husband of one wife.”)

*It was hard to not write “app.”
** The Litany either being that of the 1662 BCP, or after the Peace of Paris, in the new United States, the condensed recension of it composed by Wesley, the ill-fated Sunday Service Book.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,128
5,686
49
The Wild West
✟472,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
By the way @Paidiske just to avoid the potential for misunderstanding, in discussing liturgical rites other than my own that I admire, and why, I am not seeking to be prescriptive or to suggest an intermingling of these rites. It’s a risky business, intermingling liturgical rites, for reasons CS Lewis made abundantly clear in a short essay he wrote on changes to the liturgy.

The only recent intermingling proven by the passage of time to have worked, to my knowledge, was in Anglicanism, where Cranmer borrowed one of the prayers from the Orthodox synaxis, The Prayer of St. Chrysostom (probably written by St. Basil since their synaxis probably predates the dominance of the St. John Chrysostom Anaphora), for Morning and Evening Prayer, and also the use of the Epiclesis from the Liturgy of St. James in Scottish/non-Juring and American Episcopalian Communion services, which were very minor changes that no one noticed. And that’s really the most one can safely do.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,128
5,686
49
The Wild West
✟472,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
We should also draw a distinction between the liturgical text and the liturgy in practice. Most Anglicans using the traditional services omit large parts of them, and in Russian Orthodoxy, a brave group of seminarians did do the entire All Night Vigils in 1910, against the advice of a doctor concerned of the risks of chanting. It took ten hours. The only church I know with routine rites that long is the Ethiopian, and I suspect they are also abbreviating.

In the same way, a penitential substrate of a liturgy, such as that in the BCP, often exists but is inaudible and unnoticed by most present due to routine abbreviations which have become part of the form of practice.
 
Upvote 0