OT: President Obama's press conference and executive decision on gun laws

[inconsequential]

It's also helpful to remember that many statistics about gun violence include justifiable shootings by police and citizens.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The Helots from Messenia were not just a class, but a whole ethnic group of slaves. It's incredible to read about the Krypteia, the Spartan secret police, who would brutalize and terrorize the Helots to keep them in constant fear and in line. The Athenians and then especially later the THEBANS (!!!) used the threat of a Helot revolt to keep Sparta at bay. Sparta's limitation was that they couldn't deploy troops for long. When no one was home "minding the store," the Helots got ideas!

It'd be wild if they ever had something like sword control/weapons control like we have gun control today - in the event that the Helots from Messenia ever got to the point of saying they were over it and ready to start fighting back.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It's also helpful to remember that many statistics about gun violence include justifiable shootings by police and citizens.

Which ones did you have in mind when it comes to shootings?

 

[inconsequential]

Which ones did you have in mind when it comes to shootings?

Armed robberies, home invasions and other violent crimes where the perpetrator might be justifiably shot by police or an armed citizen.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I watched this just a little while ago. I didn't think what he proposed and signed was unreasonable, but rather common sense. What are your thoughts?

President Obama Introduces a Plan to Reduce Gun Violence | The White House

One of the biggest things I've heard repeatedly is that any attempts at gun control are fultile since (according to many) the real reasons behind shootings occurring is prayer being taken out of schools and God not being exalted. Thus, for many, true reduction in Gun violence could only occur if/when you began to have teaching and discussion of God in more prominence.... as prominent Evangelicals like Mike Huckabee and others have noted.

I do think prayer is a big deal and that discussion of God makes a difference - although I think it may be a bit simplistic when saying that the sole reasons the shootings in Colorado happened is due to allowing prayer in school to be taken out and not having the Evangelical heritage that used to be dominant in schools no longer allowed. As another said wisely:

I get a bit frustrated with those who make comments like: "this is what happens when prayer is taken out of schools" That's a twisted view of prayer, anthropology, and theology. If this is your process of thought then explain to me why these things still happen IN places of worship. There's prayer there. This is a murderous act of demonic proportions. Men's hearts are evil. Jesus changes hearts. I'm heartbroken. As pastors, we MUST address this tomorrow.
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On the side of my cousins, one of their aunts were killed in church by her spouse - who proceded to kill the pastor and others in the church as well. And we already had it recently where someone was killed in Creflo Dollar's church (a deacon). Moreover, there was one time where A Living Church of God meeting was gunned down by 44-year-old church member Terry Michael Ratzmann at a Sheraton hotel in Brookfield, WI. Ratzmann was thought to have had religious motivations, and killed himself after executing the pastor, the pastor’s 16-year-old son, and 7 others. Four were wounded. Additionally, Larry Gene Ashbrook opened fire on a Christian rock concert and teen prayer rally at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, TX. He killed 7 people and wounded 7 others, almost all teenagers. Ashbrook committed suicide. and there are acounts of others killed in church have also occurred ()...be it here or elsewhere around the world

For examples, one can go here or here:

• --"2 shot, 1 dead in graffiti incident outside Westlake church" (
• --"Three people killed in US church shootings " (
• ---"People murdered in America, in churches too " (
• -"Deeper Life Church shooting" )
• -"Man shot and killed during prayers at Atlanta-area megachurch; suspect arrested" ()

My dad/cousin and I were talking on this last year when it comes to others often saying "If only when we were in the good ol days when guns/shootings didn't occur because we had prayer in school!!" - for there can often be a false narrative that occurs because one type of evil isn't seen in a specific era and is taken to mean all evils were not there. At the same time prayer was in schools and 10 commandments were there, you had segregation in the classrooms and prejudice - alongside hatred in differing forms, even for people who could pray the Lord's prayer in the classroom and knew all the commandments. There were still others sleeping around and doing messed up things with organized crime/mob violence to others - and even if it may've been less in other areas, it was still worse in others.

And for others around the world at Christian schools that were not protected from violence and yet seeking to glorify the Lord, what of it? Was God not with the little girls who were bombed in the church MLK taught at in the 60s? Were children not protected by the Lord in Sunday school when it came to things like Rosewood and other examples of violence on communities? What about the children harmed in genocides around the world by dominant groups - even though they know of/Love Jesus? Moreover, for those who did not follow the Lord and yet they never had any history of school violence, what of them? Are we to say that they automatically are responsible for school violence because they do not have God in the classroom? I do wonder.
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All of that said, I do think it's noteworthy what the president is seeking to do - and although it may not be perfect, it's a start in the right direction.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Armed robberies, home invasions and other violent crimes where the perpetrator might be justifiably shot by police or an armed citizen.

Got that earlier - although what I was wondering on was the actual source of stats you studied on the issue (reference). Would love to investigate, as I've done my own research but don't know if you have something else in mind that would add to that

And with guns being used to stop those things, that is indeed something that needs to be considered when it comes to violence being justified at times. It's truly terrible that the the price of the freedom to bear arms seems to be paid by the most innocent so often..and yet I'm thankful that there are others taking time to show why knowing history can help in keeping negative historical events from repeating themselves - as it's a trip how often people act as if teachers having guns to protect is a new issue and don't keep track of the the times teachers with guns saved the day/stopped others who had them.

Mad props to the example set by the assistant principal in Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi, who stopped a shooter from doing a mass shooting at a junior highschool by using his own gun...and for other places for some good review:

• --"How to Stop School Shootings"
• --"A principal and his gun" ( )
• --"More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Law" ( )
• The Volokh Conspiracy - Do Civilians Armed With Guns Ever Capture, Kill, or Otherwise Stop Mass Shooters?

The principal did a great thing, IMHO, especially having the foresight to be prepared, just in case. Law breakers by their very defintion defy the law. So, no amount of gun laws, for or against possession, will "stop" law breakers from doing what they are commited to doing. Very interesting to see that this event happened 15 years ago, and has happened again with the Colorado shootings - and yet that's something that didn't seem to get brought up by the President during the debates on gun control. I may be alone in saying this - but I think having armed teachers/guards in the school systems would make a world of difference - and the same goes for other areas.

 

[inconsequential]

All I was saying is that when someone cites the number of people killed with handguns, they rarely remove the number who were "justifiably" shot before throwing the number up there. It's not accurate to equate a police officer shooting an armed robber with a drug dealer shooting a rival when listing numbers that should indicate only criminal uses of firearms.

 

[inconsequential]

I believe it was someone using stats that Piers Morgan cited from the FBI. He threw out a number and someone took the actual number and from the same report showed how he had failed to account for police shootings and citizen self defense shootings. This made the number much lower.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I believe it was someone using stats that Piers Morgan cited from the FBI. He threw out a number and someone took the actual number and from the same report showed how he had failed to account for police shootings and citizen self defense shootings. This made the number much lower.

Got ya. Sad that happened in the manner it did since it was unecessary...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It's not accurate to equate a police officer shooting an armed robber with a drug dealer shooting a rival when listing numbers that should indicate only criminal uses of firearms.

Do you feel the president himself has not taken this into account in light of his current decisions?

 

[inconsequential]

Do you feel the president himself has not taken this into account in light of his current decisions?

Honestly, I think he reacted out of strong emotion as a father and with his liberal ideology he failed to consider how it would be taken by the more hard line gun rights people. I have more concern over Feinstein's actual legislation than Obama's executive action. I don't think he overstepped as badly as is portrayed by some but it's hard to separate his action from the left's legislative push to actually ban whole classes of guns as well as instituting mandatory registration, which has always, historically, resulted in confiscation.

Many states are introducing legislation at the state level which would make it illegal for federal agents to enforce such laws. We are living in interesting times, my friend.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Honestly, I think he reacted out of strong emotion as a father and with his liberal ideology he failed to consider how it would be taken by the more hard line gun rights people. I have more concern over Feinstein's actual legislation than Obama's executive action. I don't think he overstepped as badly as is portrayed by some but it's hard to separate his action from the left's legislative push to actually ban whole classes of guns as well as instituting mandatory registration, which has always, historically, resulted in confiscation.

Many states are introducing legislation at the state level which would make it illegal for federal agents to enforce such laws. We are living in interesting times, my friend.

Good points - as the desire to protect as a father can often lead to missing the mark of ensuring fathers are able to protect their children universally...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Honestly, I think he reacted out of strong emotion as a father and with his liberal ideology he failed to consider how it would be taken by the more hard line gun rights people. I have more concern over Feinstein's actual legislation than Obama's executive action. I don't think he overstepped as badly as is portrayed by some but it's hard to separate his action from the left's legislative push to actually ban whole classes of guns as well as instituting mandatory registration, which has always, historically, resulted in confiscation.

Many states are introducing legislation at the state level which would make it illegal for federal agents to enforce such laws. We are living in interesting times, my friend.

I don't think we'll have confiscation in the future necessarily

 

[gzt]

I really don't see the problem with registration.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don't either....people are acting like it's the X-Men "mutant registration act"

I really don't see the problem with registration.

 

[MKJ]

I don't either....people are acting like it's the X-Men "mutant registration act"

It bothers people who are conspiracy theorists.

I just don't know that it is that useful a use of funds.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It bothers people who are conspiracy theorists.

I just don't know that it is that useful a use of funds.

I don't think most that it bothers are conspiracy theorists, I think folks just kinda see this as the start of a slippery slope that starts with a good intention, but ends up causing problems (ie the Patriot Act, shudders).

 

[gzt]

I don't think most that it bothers are conspiracy theorists, I think folks just kinda see this as the start of a slippery slope that starts with a good intention, but ends up causing problems (ie the Patriot Act, shudders).

The Patriot Act was problematic from the beginning, no slope there.

But here's the thing: guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. So shouldn't we monitor what people get guns? Shouldn't we record gun transactions? And doesn't that seem to require registering those guns?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't either....people are acting like it's the X-Men "mutant registration act"

You mean the one from the first X-Men film?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The Patriot Act was problematic from the beginning, no slope there.

But here's the thing: guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. So shouldn't we monitor what people get guns? Shouldn't we record gun transactions? And doesn't that seem to require registering those guns?

Good logic on the issue and one of the reasons I often wonder why many complain on the government not doing enough to protect others and yet also arguing that the government is wrong when it tries to do something to protect - examining those who get weapons and seeing if they're qualified.

It seems the main fear others have is wondering who'll do the inspection - a matter of "Who watches the Watchers?" and monitors those who monitor. That was what many complained on with the Patriot Act in light of 9/11 when others cried out and said " This could've been stopped if the government was more forceful in actually examining others for where they stand and not letting anyone go through or not checking things out fully" - and then once the Patriot Act was passed, people felt that things were allowed to go too far as it concerns personal privacy being seemingly dismissed.