OT: President Obama's press conference and executive decision on gun laws

[Gxg (G²)]

typical pick and chose outta the Bible what he wants stuff, so meh. the problem is that Christ never actually condemned a soldier for being a soldier, and John the Baptist actually gave instruction on how they can live virtuous lives.

St Paul also says that the government's role is to bear the sword of vengeance, etc.



so while his article has good points, it's not very accurrate if you look at both the Bible and Christian history

Yeah, I agree. It was interestng (for me at least) to see how another soldier would go past those things noted in Matthew 3 with the soldiers - in addition to Cornelius in Acts 10-11 and the Roman Centurion who was noted by Christ for having greater faith than all in Israel in Matthew 8/Luke 7:1-9.

But then again, as he/other like-minded people are soldiers, I can respect what he was seeking to advocate. It seemed similar to what I've seen of other Church Fathers who didn't seem to endorse war and believers being soldiers universally.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

they certainly can be that's for sure, but it is within a states right to do the kind of regulation that gzt is talking about, so personally, if Massachusetts wants tough gun restrictions or whatever, then fine.

even when the states are used as an extension of the Fed, there is a difference between that, and centralizing the power in the Fed. personally, I'd rather have the former.

Feeling where you're coming from..

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yeah, I agree. It was interestng (for me at least) to see how another soldier would go past those things noted in Matthew 3 with the soldiers - in addition to Cornelius in Acts 10-11 and the Roman Centurion who was noted by Christ for having greater faith than all in Israel in Matthew 8/Luke 7:1-9.

But then again, as he/other like-minded people are soldiers, I can respect what he was seeking to advocate. It seemed similar to what I've seen of other Church Fathers who didn't seem to endorse war and believers being soldiers universally.

oh sure, and there are a ton who have his view toward pacifism, my issue is putting a blanket statement down the way he does as if that is the only way to look at things concerning war.

 

[RKO]

This debate reminds me of a great quote I recently read. It was not from an American source, but it said that the problem with guns in America is not so much it's love affair with guns, but the way American culture embraces violence. there seems to be some truth to that...

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And that's what I've been saying all along---we're a violence-loving culture! It's the same with abortion. While I'm pro-life and would be fine with making it illegal right NOW, I'm sad to say that it would accomplish little in the way of saving lives. Yes, it would be great to declare as a culture that we're not ok with abortion, but in the end this culture sees life as cheap. They'll find a way. When you view life as cheap, you'll let your kid practice/fantasize killing people in video games that are horrific, you'll have abortions, you'll kill people that look at you the wrong way, and you'll get a gun illegally. And if you can't find a gun, you'll use something else. There are lots of weapons out there---cars, alcohol, poison, bricks, knives, shotguns, rocks, you name it. You want to kill, you'll kill. The culture doesn't value life be it young, old, in utero, etc. The whole culture is violent basically.

This debate reminds me of a great quote I recently read. It was not from an American source, but it said that the problem with guns in America is not so much it's love affair with guns, but the way American culture embraces violence. there seems to be some truth to that...

 

[RKO]

if human beings were truly 'consistent life ethicists' ALL human life would be sacred and priotected. That includes things like getting rid of the death penalty, which the majority of Christians in this country oppose.

The sad truth is that there is no agreement on which lives are sacred. That's true for humanity as a whole, and sadly enough, for Christians as well.

edit- One more observation. As Christians, we aren't supposed to be able to choose which human lives get saved and which get killed. But we do make those choices.

 

[Dorothea]

This debate reminds me of a great quote I recently read. It was not from an American source, but it said that the problem with guns in America is not so much it's love affair with guns, but the way American culture embraces violence. there seems to be some truth to that...

Well, that sure seems right on the money if you ask me.

 

[Dorothea]

if human beings were truly 'consistent life ethicists' ALL human life would be sacred and priotected. That includes things like getting rid of the death penalty, which the majority of Christians in this country oppose.

The sad truth is that there is no agreement on which lives are sacred. That's true for humanity as a whole, and sadly enough, for Christians as well.

edit- One more observation. As Christians, we aren't supposed to be able to choose which human lives get saved and which get killed. But we do make those choices.

I tend to agree with you, once again.

I listened to a man interviewed on MSNBC I think it was, the other day that somebody posted on their FB wall. It was after the pro-life march in Washington, D.C. The anchor asked the man, who was the son of a rape survivor who decided to keep him, about his views on the Catholic Church's talk about gun violence. The Pope/Vatican said something about if we care that much about the babies in the womb, we should also care as much about those being killed by gun violence. The guy answered this in such a way that I completely agreed after it brought clarity to my views. I've been pro-life for ages, but ALL pro-life, for the past 5 years at least. Anyway, he said that the two aren't comparable. He said that we first need to care for the life of the person in the womb, and that needs to carry out to when they are outside the womb.

Anyway, I agree. Even I, who do support crisis pregnancy centers, still feel I have a bit of indifference to the issue. That I don't "do" enough if I really am for the life of the babies and all people. If we don't care or abortion has become such a non issue, or that the sensitivity to what really happens to the baby is desensitized, it does cause indifference and lack of compassion and love, and that seeps throughout the culture and that lack of compassion and love for our neighbor is felt there as well, imo.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

oh sure, and there are a ton who have his view toward pacifism, my issue is putting a blanket statement down the way he does as if that is the only way to look at things concerning war.

It is interesting to see how many take the stance of pacifism and lay that over each/every comment made by Christ and then condemn others who disagree. Was talking in-depth with another leader I work with and we have a very lengthy debate on the issue - as he felt that the scriptures never supported self-defense in the sense of using weapons to protect yourself/advocating the use of guns since his view was that Christ said we were to bless Roman oppressors. And he also noted that Christ never advocated for revolt against the Roman Empire or waging a campagin - and when talking to him on the issue of guns, it came up that one can't say the Bible is against any non-pacifism view when seeing the history of the NT and the many in it who were called by the Lord to wage war/use violence.

With the gun debate, the sway of Christians can make a lot of difference if others advocate that Christ would never have wanted others to champion gun ownership or weapons....

 

[ArmyMatt]

This debate reminds me of a great quote I recently read. It was not from an American source, but it said that the problem with guns in America is not so much it's love affair with guns, but the way American culture embraces violence. there seems to be some truth to that...

that is a truism if ever I heard one. most who go to movies nowadays go for blood, explosions, etc and that is it. they talk about LOTR battle scenes, and not the awesome little gems like where Gandalf tells Frodo about why Gollum should live.

we do love it so, sadly

 

[RKO]

that is a truism if ever I heard one. most who go to movies nowadays go for blood, explosions, etc and that is it. they talk about LOTR battle scenes, and not the awesome little gems like where Gandalf tells Frodo about why Gollum should live.

we do love it so, sadly

Actually I used the wrong word in my paraphrasing of the original. It said America "CELEBRATES violence." even truer, imo.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Actually I used the wrong word in my paraphrasing of the original. It said America "CELEBRATES violence." even truer, imo.

I hear you man. we surround ourselves with violence, sex, and gluttony, and then wonder why folks do what they do.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I hear you man. we surround ourselves with violence, sex, and gluttony, and then wonder why folks do what they do.

Is there any way for that to be countered in the times we live in or will a culture of violence as we see it always remain?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is there any way for that to be countered in the times we live in or will a culture of violence as we see it always remain?

oh I think we are just as savage as we have always been and always will be. we just mostly put our violence in movies and TV, so we think we are more civilized than we used to be.

but I have a feeling this culture will continue until Christ returns.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

oh I think we are just as savage as we have always been and always will be. we just mostly put our violence in movies and TV, so we think we are more civilized than we used to be.

but I have a feeling this culture will continue until Christ returns.

Yeah - not a happy prospect by any means, although thankful that Christ will bring redeemption ultimately and help us to see the ways that we're still primitve/savage even though society may say otherwise due to trying to mask it/make it seem like we're more refined in it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

we surround ourselves with violence, sex, and gluttony, and then wonder why folks do what they do.

There was actually an interesting article on the issue which I thought you'd be interested in...more found here on the subject:

• RANDOM COMMENTS ON AMERICA'S GUN DEBATE

The post was focused on a discussion that was developed by an individual known as Seven Bates - although the discussion has long been deleted sadly. However, the discussion was very brilliant as it concerns discussing some of the root issues that many in the U.S don't want to address. For the UK and Japan have a lot of guns in their country, people who choose to purchase guns for home protection and self defense, Hunting/sporting firearms enthusiasts...and criminals. And yet even with their levels, then the UK and Japan with their laws on gun control don't have anywhere near the same amount of violence as we do in the U.S. For more accuracy/detail on the matter, Japan has about 650 murders a year...averaging 37 gun homicides a year, with Japan's population being about 125 million. In Japan, handguns are completely banned in Japan, and shotguns or rifles are strongly regulated - with their being about 700k guns in Japan, most of which are shotguns. Logically, that'd mean that about 6% of the murders are being performed with a gun.

With the UK, they've averaged about800 murders a year, with about 50 a year from guns - and the UK has a population of 60 million, with handguns banned in the UK, and rifle or shotgun ownership requiring a lot of registration. Moreover, there are about 3.4 million guns in the UK - meaning that there're about 7% of the murders being performed with a gun with an average of 4 murders performed with a handgun per year.

All of that is highly significant when considering how the U.S currently averages 14,500 murders a year...with 9,000-11,000 of those being gun deaths - with us having over 300 million guns for a population of over 300 million, meaning that it is about 70% of murders being performed with a gun. How is that the case - and are we willing to deal with that?

I'm thankful for others noting that it doesn't matter whether one gets a gun honorably or not since much of the root behind gun violence is due to others not knowing what to do in the moment. Specifically, the restriction/wisdom others use with guns doesn't do a lot when considering how there are two types of gun crimes - passionate and premeditated - and crimes of passion happen a lot. The crimes of passion with guns are composed of situations where where someone decides that shooting another person is to be seen as a natural escalation to an altercation - and a lot of people have perished due to how because someone used a gun in a heated situation, despite the fact that they had alternatives to choose from. A person trying to steal something from a house and they got blown away by the owner - or someone in a heated situation choosing to use a gun to resolve it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

that is interesting

 

[isshinwhat]

I hear you man. we surround ourselves with violence, sex, and gluttony, and then wonder why folks do what they do.

Psychologist Lt. Col. Dave Grossman On The Act Of Killing - YouTube

Watch from 19:30ish on...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I remember how, as a kid, Mortal Kombat came out, where you actually killed folks at the end of each match in the game, and all the blood that came with that.

it's amazing how tame that looks now, compared with games today.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I was in high school when that game came out and that whole "finish him!" thing with the killing the opponent....dang, that tripped me out back in the day. Like you said, nowdays that's like Bambi level

I remember how, as a kid, Mortal Kombat came out, where you actually killed folks at the end of each match in the game, and all the blood that came with that.

it's amazing how tame that looks now, compared with games today.