OT: President Obama's press conference and executive decision on gun laws

[Dorothea]

I watched this just a little while ago. I didn't think what he proposed and signed was unreasonable, but rather common sense. What are your thoughts?

President Obama Introduces a Plan to Reduce Gun Violence | The White House

 

[gzt]

I do think that a lot of the problem was that it was hard to enforce existing laws, and some of these executive orders address that by mandating interagency cooperation and such. I also think a lot of the problem in formulating good evidence-based policy for reducing gun violence was that research into the causes of gun violence was effectively stopped, so I think it's very good that he's telling the CDC to look at it and giving them funds for it. I don't think things like assault weapon bans or limits on magazines accomplish much. Background checks and tracing guns will have an effect, though.

 

[Dorothea]

I do think that a lot of the problem was that it was hard to enforce existing laws, and some of these executive orders address that by mandating interagency cooperation and such. I also think a lot of the problem in formulating good evidence-based policy for reducing gun violence was that research into the causes of gun violence was effectively stopped, so I think it's very good that he's telling the CDC to look at it and giving them funds for it. I don't think things like assault weapon bans or limits on magazines accomplish much. Background checks and tracing guns will have an effect, though.

yes, I agree.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I watched this just a little while ago. I didn't think what he proposed and signed was unreasonable, but rather common sense. What are your thoughts?

President Obama Introduces a Plan to Reduce Gun Violence | The White House

I think it's an outstanding compromise. He's not demanding that everyone give up every firearm they own, but saying "look, these assault rifles and 20+ round magazines are absolutely ridiculous." There's absolutely no reason for civilians to possess that kind of firepower. So I applaud Obama's administration for putting this out there and I hope it gets traction.

In a majority of the cases, the weapons used in shootings were purchased legally, so taking assault weapons and large capacity magazines off of the table will have a larger impact than we imagine.

Now, I know the age-old retort that those same shooters would have purchased their guns illegally. Well, I wonder if that's actually true. For one, I think finding someone who would deal black market firearms is harder than it's depicted in the media. Another thing is that the person purchasing the firearm has no idea if the dealer's being watched by any law enforcement agencies or if the weapon itself is "hot", so all of those variables could actually be a deterrent.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I live in Central California---Tea Party National Headquarters USA.

Around here all you hear is "President Obama is taking away our liberty, stealing the constitution from out of under us, betraying the American people, and taking our guns away so he can control us all!"

Paranoia and conspiracy theories...Tea Party usual faire

 

[Gnarwhal]

I live in Central California---Tea Party National Headquarters USA.

Around here all you hear is "President Obama is taking away our liberty, stealing the constitution from out of under us, betraying the American people, and taking our guns away so he can control us all!"

Paranoia and conspiracy theories...Tea Party usual faire

You have my sympathies. Though my county's pretty red for California too...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think it's an outstanding compromise. He's not demanding that everyone give up every firearm they own, but saying "look, these assault rifles and 20+ round magazines are absolutely ridiculous." There's absolutely no reason for civilians to possess that kind of firepower. So I applaud Obama's administration for putting this out there and I hope it gets traction.

In a majority of the cases, the weapons used in shootings were purchased legally, so taking assault weapons and large capacity magazines off of the table will have a larger impact than we imagine.

Now, I know the age-old retort that those same shooters would have purchased their guns illegally. Well, I wonder if that's actually true. For one, I think finding someone who would deal black market firearms is harder than it's depicted in the media. Another thing is that the person purchasing the firearm has no idea if the dealer's being watched by any law enforcement agencies or if the weapon itself is "hot", so all of those variables could actually be a deterrent.

Good points. I applaud the President for what he's seeking to do - in agreement with what other countries have done. As another individual noted wisely:

There are other countries with high gun ownership and lower gun related death rates but America seems to be an enigma. The fact is, that Americans need to have this debate and stop believing in the myths about guns and how they make the place safer. The thousands per annum victims of gun related deaths pay the price for the ideology of the right to bear arms. If this was a plague, or a road related matter, the debate would be over already and something would have been done.

How many kids would have paid the price for this if the guy only had access to non-firearm weapons? Read this?

Anyway, I understand both sides of the debate, but I am sick of adults playing the blame game while nutcases can get access to military weapons, which are only designed to kill mulitple human being targets per use efficiently....the amount of guns does not influence the amount of nutcases who want to use them on other people. The easier it is to get guns, the easier it is for a criminal or a nutcase to get guns. It's about culture. The Swiss are more civilized and calm people, obviously, and have lots of guns but not much crime.

....It's not really about people not being responsible- it's about society not being responsible in keeping harmful things away from those who cannot use them! We don't allow people to use heroin, because it's harmful. Nor do we allow drink driving. Hopefully bath salts will be banned soon. At some point this gun thing has to change. It's simply not functioning properly.


I thought this article had some interesting things to say about the history of US gun lobby and how it has (mis)shaped the debate

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I do think that a lot of the problem was that it was hard to enforce existing laws, and some of these executive orders address that by mandating interagency cooperation and such. I also think a lot of the problem in formulating good evidence-based policy for reducing gun violence was that research into the causes of gun violence was effectively stopped, so I think it's very good that he's telling the CDC to look at it and giving them funds for it. I don't think things like assault weapon bans or limits on magazines accomplish much. Background checks and tracing guns will have an effect, though.

There was a good discussion elsewhere on the issue concerning the debates behind why many seem almost fearful of any type of gun-control.

But on the issue, part of me was thinking on some things after talking with the Co-Leader I work with as a Youth Worker - and he noted (as he's in his 30s) that he may have strong feelings on the issue...but that's mainly because of the era he grew up in. And as he noted to me, it's different talking about gun control from the perspective of an older adult - and then asking about it from the perspective of a teenager. For they have to deal with things that he never had to face decades ago - and they are the ones who see violence/shootings and even having threats given to them for death (as I've personally seen doing street ministry/seeing one little girl get threats not to "walk home alone" after she said some things to some kids from a rival neighborhood - and ended up having to be escorted home by the police).

As I've noted to others, it should never have taken the shooting of an elementary school in order for the attention of others to be captured on gun control - and I'm seriously hoping that there'll be serious discussion that takes place on the ways that things probably could've been avoided like the shooting if some of those teachers had guns themselves/were able to shoot back. ...and the ways that experiences are becoming more universal (Sadly) rather than limited to one group. For it's fact that there're kids that've have experienced most of the things that've happened for those kids today who lived to witness violence - as it concerns inner-city kids who grow up seeing a culture of violence breeding death of family/friends all the time and are used to it..and used to seeing no one grieved over that. For them, having a gun or automatic weapon is a means of gaining some semblance of control over their existence when they've often been pushed to the edge and feel they had no choice if they were to survive....

Others like Geoffrey Canada have been a voice of remembrance for what no one can afford to forget in our days...as seen in his book entitled Fist Stick Knife Gun: A Personal History of Violence. Fist Stick Knife Gun is also available as a graphic novel adaptation by Jamar Nicholas....and one can read chapter 20 from Fist Stick Knife Gun on Scribd.

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[inconsequential]

While I don't have a problem with the steps themselves and do find them to be pretty common sense measures, it's the fact that he basically decreed these things, which furthers a dangerous precedent that causes my concern. I was pretty concerned about the Patriot Act and the NDAA because of how they could easily be abused.

I have no use for a high capacity magazine but the laws proposed will make pretty much any semi-auto an "assault weapon", which is absurd.

Honestly, I think the anti-conspiracy theory folks are just as off base as the full blown conspiracy theorists. I bet if we had a hard right winger in the White House issuing executive orders to mandate research into the dangers unions pose to the free market (or something similar) the lefties would be up in arms about it.

But I realize there's really no point in trying to discuss the issue as I'll just be labelled a right wing nutter and marginalized, if not outright mocked, by those leaning to the left.

 

[inconsequential]

Just for the record, after looking at the issue objectively, I think what the founding fathers had in mind regarding the Second Ammendment was MUCH closer to what Switzerland has than what we currently have. But that is kind of moot since the box has been open a long time and neither closing it nor incarcerating Pandora will fix the situation.

 

[Dorothea]

While I don't have a problem with the steps themselves and do find them to be pretty common sense measures, it's the fact that he basically decreed these things, which furthers a dangerous precedent that causes my concern. I was pretty concerned about the Patriot Act and the NDAA because of how they could easily be abused.

I have no use for a high capacity magazine but the laws proposed will make pretty much any semi-auto an "assault weapon", which is absurd.

Honestly, I think the anti-conspiracy theory folks are just as off base as the full blown conspiracy theorists. I bet if we had a hard right winger in the White House issuing executive orders to mandate research into the dangers unions pose to the free market (or something similar) the lefties would be up in arms about it.

But I realize there's really no point in trying to discuss the issue as I'll just be labelled a right wing nutter and marginalized, if not outright mocked, by those leaning to the left.

I think you make some valid points. There is a bit of a concern in what this will lead to. I, at least, felt this, even though I listened carefully and agreed to the common sense measures. But just thinking now how many gun laws there have been in the past few decades, and people still have the right to bear arms, so to speak. But I can understand the concern of what this may lead to in the future.

 

[inconsequential]

There IS a grand conspiracy to take away our rights. It was started in the Garden and there have been human collaborators all along, whether they realized it or not. We have all played some small part in it.

I think it's foolish to believe that there are not things going on behind the scenes, driven by people who are under Satan's influence. How could anyone not believe that Satan influenced people and events leading to the Communist take over in Russia? Did the revolutionaries intend to create an evil empire that would wreak such havoc and misery? I doubt it but I bet Satan knew how such a thing would go and influenced key people to bring it to fruition.

I have a bit of first hand experience dealing with demonic forces and using them to influence people and situations. I can't believe that it doesn't happen on a macro level.

 

[Ignatius21]

Just for the record, after looking at the issue objectively, I think what the founding fathers had in mind regarding the Second Ammendment was MUCH closer to what Switzerland has than what we currently have. But that is kind of moot since the box has been open a long time and neither closing it nor incarcerating Pandora will fix the situation.

Could you elaborate on this? I don't know anything about Switzerland's laws or how it compares to the US, either during our founding or today.

 

[Dorothea]

There IS a grand conspiracy to take away our rights. It was started in the Garden and there have been human collaborators all along, whether they realized it or not. We have all played some small part in it.

I think it's foolish to believe that there are not things going on behind the scenes, driven by people who are under Satan's influence. How could anyone not believe that Satan influenced people and events leading to the Communist take over in Russia? Did the revolutionaries intend to create an evil empire that would wreak such havoc and misery? I doubt it but I bet Satan knew how such a thing would go and influenced key people to bring it to fruition.

I have a bit of first hand experience dealing with demonic forces and using them to influence people and situations. I can't believe that it doesn't happen on a macro level.

I actually agree with you.

 

[inconsequential]

Could you elaborate on this? I don't know anything about Switzerland's laws or how it compares to the US, either during our founding or today.

Rather than a standing army all able bodied/minded citizens are trained to serve in the national militia. They keep their weapons in their homes and are prepared to respond quickly if called into service. All citizens are encouraged to participate in gun safety courses as well as shooting sports.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There is plenty of hypocrisy and absurdity in both parties to go around. With the Democrats, you get all sorts of promises of a perfect social utopia through government. What you get is a mixed bag. You do get unions that help improve (most of the time) the quality of life for the typical middle class union worker, you get a cleaner environment, you get more restraint with foreign invasions and war-mongering, you get social safety nets to ensure that the elderly and lowliest among us have access to affordable health care and retirement. You get regulation that does make life better. I know I like my airlines regulated. I want to know the plane I'm flying in won't crash. I also don't mind food inspectors and USDA keeping the food industry honest. I also like the FBI and ATF and CIA looking out for us. However, with these things, you also get abortion, gay "marriage" and the homosexual agenda rammed down your throat, often times excessive regulations that can slow down productivity and commerce, and the social safety nets get so bloated and overly-generous as well as ineffecient that it makes you scratch your head.

With the Republicans, you get a robust military, more limitations on abortion, push-back and refusal to accept the gay agenda, more distrust toward the liberal system imposing leftist ideas on the populace via the education system, etc. They have a better social policy with morality. But with this you also get insane amounts of money being directed into tons of defense contract fraud and waste. You get CEO's who run companies into the ground rewarded and protected. You get the rich's taxes lowered significantly. You get the insurance companies raising rates on the middle class as they record obscene profits. You get union-busting as the Koch Brothers types try to ensure that the bosses and shop owners have ALL the power and the little guy has no bargaining chips whatsoever! You get a filthier environment because $$$$ comes before clean and untainted water supplies and clean air. In short, you get sexual morality and such, but you also get vulture capitalism that cares nothing for the elderly, the middle class, and so many others.

Both sides are diabolical in their own right, and both sides contain large kernels of truth and justice. I'm at a point in my life that the extremes on both sides just make me CRAZY!

 

[ArmyMatt]

the one thing I always wonder about is why guns? why is it that whenever somone stabs someone to death, why don't we have a national dialogue to end knife violence?

personally, and this is my inner libertarian, the only gun control I believe in is two hands and good aim.

 

[inconsequential]

I hear ya brother. I'm starting to giggle and gibber a little myself.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

the one thing I always wonder about is why guns? why is it that whenever somone stabs someone to death, why don't we have a national dialogue to end knife violence?

personally, and this is my inner libertarian, the only gun control I believe in is two hands and good aim.

Add to that pencil violence - in light of how many kids/teens have been harmed with others using that as weapons. The same with paper clips and a host of other things that get used in schools (especially the hood) for violence.

If people are expecting a utopia, I don't know if they'll ever get it - and many times, there can be overreaction to things.

At one point, I remember where you could no longer play dodgeball due to how others said too many kids got hurt due to being hit in the face - and I always thought "Those kids SHOULDN'T have been playing!!!" since they were often the ones who either didn't like sports - or were always talking rather than paying attention.

 

[inconsequential]

the one thing I always wonder about is why guns? why is it that whenever somone stabs someone to death, why don't we have a national dialogue to end knife violence?

personally, and this is my inner libertarian, the only gun control I believe in is two hands and good aim.