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OSASers choose to reject Jesus’ warnings about losing salvation!

Discussion in 'Soteriology DEBATE' started by extraordinary, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    Augustine, Aquinas and Luther have been cited. #252.

    I guess there isn't much point continuing because you won't read it.
     
  2. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Did they hold to the doctrines? If so, then there's nothing more to discuss.
     
  3. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    I've already said otherwise.

    If you can find any evidence of Christian writers that believed in PotS prior to John Calvin then please come back with a post.
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You mean besides Augustine and the Council of Orange?
     
  5. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    ?
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    ??
     
  7. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    James Arminius taught that we are saved and kept secure in Christ by grace through faith. Therefore, the very same question (with corrected grammar) could just as appropriately be asked of a Calvinist:

    How can a Calvinist know that he or she is doing enough to stay saved?
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    We don't do anything to stay saved. But I noticed that you didn't answer my question.
     
  9. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    There may be many Christian writers prior to Calvin that believed that all true Christians persevered to then end - would you name some please?
     
  10. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Augustine and the Council of Orange have already been “named.” Even Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny could be named. Augustine has already been quoted where his teaching expressly contradicted the teaching of Calvin on the Perseverance of the Saints. The Council of Orange no more affirmed the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints than did Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny!
     
  11. PrincetonGuy

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    The question that was asked was a loaded question like, “Have you stopped beating your wife and kids?” (A loaded question is one in which the question includes a false implication).
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Augustine and the Council of Orange.
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Not loaded at all. We are told that true believers can lose their salvation. But those that tell us this are sure that they haven't fallen into that category. How can they be so sure?
     
  14. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    These being such, you will have a citation to hand. I don't assert that you are wrong. but would just like your position proved, please.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2014
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Google it. Do your own research.
     
  16. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    This information is absolutely false, and everyone who is familiar with the teaching of Augustine and who is familiar with the Council of Orange knows for an incontrovertible fact that the information posted here by Hammster is false.
     
  17. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    It was a loaded question because it falsely implied that Arminian theology teaches what it does not teach.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    They are free to look for themselves. I'm not going to copy and paste a bunch of stuff.
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Maybe a poor choice of words. We've been told that the regenerate can, by their own actions, lose/forfeit/pick your term salvation. Yet they are sure they are doing whatever necessary to maintain this salvation. And I am wondering how they can be so sure.
     
  20. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Tens of millions of man hours have been spent investigating the teachings of Calvin, and today we have hugely more evidence that his theology was aberrational than we have evidence that the teachings of Charles Taze Russell and the teachings of Joseph Smith were aberrational. This research has been published in hundreds of thousands of documents in scores of languages. Nonetheless, both Russell and Smith have millions of followers who are just as sure of the truth of their beliefs as are Calvinists sure of the truth of their beliefs. This is not to say that Calvinism is outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity, but only that the quantity of evidence against the truth of Calvinism is hugely greater than the quantity of evidence against the truth of the teachings of Russell and Smith.

    Moreover, of the five points of theology known today as the five points of Calvinism, the evidence against the point known as the Perseverance of the Saints is the greatest. Not only is there a lack of any evidence that anyone at all, prior to the Protestant Reformation, understood any of the verses or passages in the Bible to teach or support the doctrine, but we have in the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers numerous examples of the teaching of conditional security.
     
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