OSAS? What do you believe?

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=Mordacai
We are saved by grace through faith. The grace is God's the faith is our's. Only the righteous will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, and only by faith can righteousess be imputed to us. Without faith it is impossible to please God.intial salvation

As long as we continue in the faith we are saved, but if we let the cares and temptations of this world distract us, then we run a very real risk of shifting our faith to another entity thus falling from grace.present tense salvation....1 john 1:8-10 ever time we sin we do this....but are we romans 4:8

romans 4:8 blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin..

and how does one get this?? romans 4:5

Only God knows who will endure to the end. So for all intents and purposes, if we wish to inherit the Kingdom of God then it's best to remain on the narrow road.

----------------
Scott

enduring to the end are the ones who get to use what God has already given to us !!!

Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply full all your need[mental needs... eph 3:16-19] according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus

physical needs were in vs 4:16

So if God gives all mental needs to opportate down Here where this world considers us its enemys....

why do we sin!.....we are not completely saved but partially saved so God can live inside of us!
what part is?

the spirit not the body or soul...lots of verses ...will do latter if you request

 

[Mordacai]

why do we sin!.....we are not completely saved but partially saved so God can live inside of us!
what part is?

I would be more inclined to believe that the reason we continue to sin after our regenereation is because we don't totally submit ourselves to the Lordship of Christ Jesus.

Whether it's because we don't trust Him fully or don't wish to give up parts of our lives. Either way we have not denied ourselves, we have not picked up our cross and though we try desparatly to follow Him, it takes very little to turn our attention away from Him and put it on our own fleshly desires.

 

[frumanchu]

The general application of the word, us, does not imply each, individually. When a person leaves a group (a youth group, for example) he ceases to be of "us" (as a member of the youth group), but the "us" of the youth group continues to exist. God does not withdraw from his people, in truth. But when a person ceases to be of God's people, that prior condition also ceases to apply to the individual concerned. Or perhaps someone can be handed over to Satan if this is not so.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." - 1 John 2:19

There is a great difference between being with us and being of us.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

I would be more inclined to believe that the reason we continue to sin after our regenereation is because we don't totally submit ourselves to the Lordship of Christ Jesus.

Whether it's because we don't trust Him fully or don't wish to give up parts of our lives. Either way we have not denied ourselves, we have not picked up our cross and though we try desparatly to follow Him, it takes very little to turn our attention away from Him and put it on our own fleshly desires.

#1 enemy... the interself AKA the flesh..OSN
#2 enemy... the outer enemy...Satan
#3 enemy .. another outer enemy ..the world system

More than one enemy in the bible...

Ever part of mankind does not submit towards his Lordship because of the flesh?

In a sense we agree but I broke it down more so...

 

[Mordacai]

#1 enemy... the interself AKA the flesh..OSN
#2 enemy... the outer enemy...Satan
#3 enemy .. another outer enemy ..the world system

More than one enemy in the bible...

Ever part of mankind does not submit towards his Lordship because of the flesh?

In a sense we agree but I broke it down more so...

The flesh. the world, the devil, the three theaters of battle in our spiritual war. Man is without hope, he cannot possibly hope to win one of these battles let alone all three of them. Only by our faith in Christ our we found righteous. Only by faith in Christ are we given freedom from the bondage of sin that the flesh, the world and the devil once had us under.

Put your faith and trust in the Savior of the world, Christ Jesus our Lord, and find out that holiness in this lifetime is an attainable goal.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Rom 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The wages of sin is death, even if you once had true moment of faith in Christ. The only reason that someone who once confessed Jesus with his mouth could have for becoming a slave to sin again is he has placed his faith in something other than Christ.

We can't serve two masters.

 

[Ben johnson]

I believe a man filled, saved, and sealed by the Holy Spirit is not able to continue in sin. I believe a saved individual out of control in sin will be taken home by God.

What does this mean? There are those who think that 1Cor5:5 speaks of PHYSICAL DEATH so that his SOUL may be saved. But that would mean that the IMMORAL man, worse than GENTILIES, GOES TO HEAVEN!!! Is that possible? Can severely immoral men go to Heaven? How can you possibly believe that one "OUT OF CONTROL IN SIN" will be warmly welcomed in Heaven? Was Jesus WRONG in Matt7:16-20? Was Paul wrong in 1Cor6:9-11 & Gal5:19-21? Was John wrong in 1:3:7-10? Have you found EXCEPTIONS for these absolutes?

Oh well - on to a proper examination of Ephesians:
He - declares who undertook an action - He
chose - tells us what that action was - choosing
us - tells us who the action affects - "us"
in him - tells us with more precision just who was affected - "us in him"
before the foundation of the world - shows when the choosing was done
that we should be holy - shows what was chosen
(He) - unstated - therefore the person who did the prior choosing.
having predestinated - takes a new action
us - affecting the same people
to adoption of sons - describes what is predestinated
in Christ - declares where that action is taken.

First let's define "SALVIC-FAITH" as identical and interchangeable with "SALVIC-BELIEF".
Second, establish that SALVIC-FAITh is NOT from God but from the individual --- from the convicted heart. Rom6:17, 10:10, 2Tim3:15 (can I trust everyone to look these up? Or shall I quote them?)
Third, understand that the ANSWER to Eph1:4 is 2Thess2:13 --- "God has chosen you from the beginning THROUGH FAITH..."
(salvic-faith is from MAN, it is not instilled by God)

Interesting to me that someone pointed to Galatians as a basis for "conditional salvation" - when the whole issue with the church of Galatia was that they were practicing a "works based" faith - which according to Paul was incorrect.

Are you really willing to say that:
• BEGUN in the Spirit (3:3)
• OBEYING the TRUTH (5:7)
• RUNNING WELL (5:7)
Are you REALLY WILLING to assert that these attributes describe the NEVER-SAVED? How can you make that work???

I think that before looking at 2 Peter 1:9-11 you should take a look a little earlier in the passage at verses 3 and 4: "His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our KNOWLEDGE OF HIM WHO CALLED US BY HIS OWN GLORY AND GOODNESS. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promise, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world cause by evil desires."

With respect --- how is it that you are willing to read 1:3-4, correctly recognizint that the "APOPHEUGO-ESCAPED" corruption by the "EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the KURIOS-LORD and SOTER-SAVIOR Jesus Christ" --- are SAVED --- but the EXACT SAME word-for-GREEK-WORD description in 2:2:20-22, is NOT SAVED?
How do you make that work?

2Pet1:9 describes one who has "FORGOTTEN purification from former sins" --- either he WAS NEVER SAVED (then please explain how he WAS purified? How???) --- or he is STILL SAVED (really? He LACKS morality, LACKS godliness, LACKS kindness, LACKS brotherly love, has FORGOTTEN former purification --- still SAVED? Really willing to go there?) --- or he TRULY has LEFT salvation. And THEREFORE, verse TEN is a REAL WARNING for US not to do the SAME!!!

Again, I mean no disrespect to all of you; but I cannot imagine how you make these verses work...

 

[Ben johnson]

"Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Absolutely, thus once saved always saved.

Absolutely NOT "once saved always saved". Work through this with the GREEK:

"In the case of those who ...made METOCHOS-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit" (Heb3:1, "partners in a heavenly calling", 3:14 "partners in Christ" --- all "metochos"). Does the Holy Spirit PARTNER with the unsaved?

...And THEN have FALLEN AWAY ("parapiptos" aorist active participle --- supports CONTINUING ACTION), it is ADUNATOS-POWERLESS-UNABLE (impossible) to restore them to repentance...

• SEEING AS (KJV)
• BECAUSE (NIV)
• SINCE (NASV)
• WHILE! (NASV footnote)

...they crucify to themselves Jesus anew and hold Him to shame (regard with contempt)

The REASON they won't WANT to repent is BECAUSE of their contemptuous apostasy --- the verse says no more, NO LESS.

Once again, never was it claimed that they were saved. Had they been elected, they could not be lost.

Hmmm; one can have "SHIPWRIECK of faith that NEVER EXISTED" (1Tim1:19), can GO ASTRAY from the truth though they've never HAD it so they were ALWAYS ASTRAY (2Tim2:17-18). Do you think James meant (in 5:19-20), "if any of YOU BRETHREN wander from the truth but really were never IN the truth so you can't actually WANDER"?

"1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

Once again, they departed from the faith, but were never saved to begin with.

So they DEPART FROM faith that they were NEVER IN. And I suppose the LAST verse of that chapter isn't a WARNING to CONTINUE IN salvation?
"Pay CLOSE ATTENTION to yourself and your teaching, PERSEVERE in these things; for as you DO this you will SAVE YOURSELVES and those who hear you!"

"2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. "

You can know of the Bible and of God and not believe. Once again, never saved.

Word-for-GREEK-WORD the SAME as chapter 1:
1. APOPHEUGO-escaped world corruption through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of Jesus
2. APOPHEUGO-escaped defilements through the EPIGNOSIS-KNOWLEDGE of Jesus

...but you insist that chapter TWO doesn't mean the SAME as chapter ONE? How do you make that work?

"Far better to have never KNOWN-EPIGINOSKO the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN it to have TURNED-AWAY-FROM-EPISTREPHO-EK the holy commandment..." But you say "they didn't REALLY know it, they didn't REALLY TURN AWAY from it"...

"2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

Let's read the CONTEXT: "Chosen lady and her children ...some children walking in truth... ...many deceivers have gone into the world... WATCH YOURSELVES that you might not LOSE what has been WROUGHT, but may receive FULL REWARD; anyone who GOES TOO FAR (goes on ahead) and DOES NOT ABIDE in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD; but he who ABIDES has the Father and the Son." Somehow this is NOT a warning against "believers being deceived by antichrists/deceivers, to GOING TOO FAR and NOT ABIDING IN CHRIST, so that they no longer have God." Not a real warning; how do you make that work? (Comment also on 2Pet3:17, Col2:8 --- they say the SAME THING...)

Finally, two questions that necessarily need answering:

1. "Can Christians dispose of (or throw away) their salvation?" rather than "Can Christians lose their salvation?"-?

First, establish that our CONFIDENCE is JESUS (Heb10:19, w/ Heb6:19).
Second, recognize that Heb10:35 is admonishing us to NOT THROW AWAY JESUS!!! Clearly written, word-for-word.

 

[Ben johnson]

All the elect are called to do such. If you do not abide in Him and walk as He walked, you were never part of the elect.

There are THREE SEPARATE and DISTINCT, different views of OSAS.
1. Carnal Christian, "baby", need-not-grow; can be fornicating/drunken/stealing/carousing but STILL SAVED. ("Antinomianism")
2. Calvinism (Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Predestined-Election, Perseverance of Saints, Reformed Theology)
3. Eternal Security --- salavtion offered to ALL, but once "IN" either the heart is TOO CHANGED to leave, or God interferes to PREVENT leaving

All three views assert: "if you're not saved NOW, then you never were to BEGIN with".

The "poblem verses" (problematic to OSAS) must be interpreted with one of these:
1. They were never really SAVED in the FIRST PLACE
2. They never really FELL from salvation
3. This isn't a REAL ACCOUNT, it's just HYPERBOLE; it's HYPOTHETICAL fatherly advice (to keep us in line) (as if the ELECT could ever get OUT of line), but it can't REALLY HAPPEN.
4. This entire letter (James, 1&2Peter, Galatians, Colossians, 2Jn, etc) weren't really written for us HERE and TODAY; it applied to a DIFFERENT TIME, we can just IGNORE the whole LETTER(s).

But you would have to throw out pretty much the WHOLE BIBLE, for they all said the same. Galatians were REAL PEOPLE, they WERE running well, WERE obeying the truth, WERE begun in the Spirit; now they return again to SLAVERY and LAW, they are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN from grace. NEVER-WERE-SAVED? DIDN'T-REALLY-FALL? Unreal-HYPOTHETICAL? How do you make it work with OSAS?

Excellent post, Yuke. Excellent.

@ Fru...

 

[Ben johnson]

The argument is something like this. If it were possible for a true Christian to sin willfully after receiving the gospel truth by rejecting it, there would be no hope of him ever getting saved again. The only thing awaiting him is the fiery indignation of God seeing that he has trodden under foot the Lord Jesus and counted His blood by which he was saved an unholy thing. The only way of salvation is through the blood of Jesus and if a Christian could reject that there is no hope for him seeing he rejected the only thing that could save his soul.

"Do not be conceited but fear; if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold the kindness and severity of God --- to those who FELL, severity, but to you God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness, OTHERWISE YOU WILL ALSO BE CUT OFF. And they also, if they do not CONTINUE IN UNBELIEF, will be grafted in again, for God is able to graft them in again." Rom11:21-23

"But I have this against you --- you have LEFT YOUR FIRSTLOVE. Remember therefore from where you have fallen, AND REPENT and do the deeds you did at first; else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place ---- unless you REPENT." Rev2:4-5

QUESTION: Is a CHRISTIAN, a truly SAVED-ONE, sinless?
ANSWER: No.
Question: Is it God's will for us TO sin?
Answer: NO.
Question: Is it God's will for us NOT-TO-SIN (rather, to pursue righteousness?)
Answer: YES!
Question: Can we deny that God's will for us to be sinless, is RESISTIBLE?
Question: If God is RESISTIBLE (see Heb12:25, "Do not RESIST Him..."), then is not REPENTANCE, equally resistible?
Answer: YES!

Thus Heb10:26 really menas what it SAYS: "If WE continue sinning willfully after having RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries."

James writes to BELOVED BRETHREN, urging us to beware of SIN; "God tempts no one, each is tempted when enticed and carried away by his own lust; then lust conceived births sin, and sin brings DEATH (thanatos). DO NOT BE DECEIVED BELOVED BRETHREN." 1:14-16 Did James not really MEAN IT? Or was James talking to UNSAVED BELOVED BRETHREN? Or talking TO us ABOUT the unsaved? How do you make this work with OSAS?

I hope you can see the danger in redefining words with set meanings in order to accommodate a doctrine. This boils down to letting your doctrine define the Word of God instead of letting the Word of God define your doctrine. Here are the set meaning of some of the words, what right do we have in redefining them?

Does OSNAS do this? Or does OSAS do this? OSAS says "they weren't REALLY escaped in 2Pet2:20-22"; "they didn't REALLY wander from the truth in James5:19-20". "The RUNNING-WELL-BEGUN-SPIRIT-OBEYING-TRUTH-GALATIANS weren't REALLY saved". Peter doesn't REALLY mean "guard against falling from steafastness" in 2:3:17, Heb12:25 doesn't REALLY mean "don't refuse God", Heb12:15 doesn't REALLY mean "don't fall short of God's grace", Heb3:12-14 doesn't REALLY mean that we CAN be hardened by deceitful sin to "falling away from the living God", nor that we are partners in Jesus ONLY IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end", Paul didn't REALLY worry that we are just as AT-RISK of going astray as Eve was in 2Cor11:3 (or Paul REALLY meant we COULD be led astray from simplicity/purity of devotion to Jesus BUT STILL BE SAVED); Jude didn't REALLY mean "keep yourselves in the love of God", Jesus didn't REALLY mean "if anyone IN ME doesn't bear fruit he's TAKEN AWAY" (Jn15:2) nor did Jesus REALLY mean that "anyone who does not abide in Me is cast off ...and burned" (Jn15:6).

I could go on and on and on; verse after verse "doesn't really MEAN what it SAYS". I've been making a list of verses against OSAS, so far it's at about 35-40. And still growing. Tell me again which view "redefines words instead of letting Scripture define their belief?"

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

did Jesus Christ die for all sin or not?

past present and future.

can man jump out of God's hand ...John 10:28-29..eph 1:4

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Satan lost his postion in God Kingdom 2nd in command and his salvation with it
ezek 28:14 had annoiting of H.S. inside of him like us.

But why do the angels desire to look into these things God has given us? 1peter 1:12

eph 3:8-11 its called grace

we the Gentile Church will have a greater position than the jews since they get land on the new earth as we get to be with the Lord into the ages helping ruling with Christ over the Jews Hebrews 11:40..ect..


Did God finnish the work on the cross or did he not! john 19:30 it is finnished

 

[mametz]

Hi

This always seems to me to be one of the biggest problems with those that do not believe OSAS.

That they want to add works to the finished work of Christ!!

just a thought!

 

[Ben johnson]

This always seems to me to be one of the biggest problems with those that do not believe OSAS.

That they want to add works to the finished work of Christ!!

Works? WHAT works?

There is always something DEMANDED to be "added to the finished work of Christ" --- BELIEF.

There is no GIFT, that is not RECEIVED.

 

[Mordacai]

Hi

This always seems to me to be one of the biggest problems with those that do not believe OSAS.

That they want to add works to the finished work of Christ!!

just a thought!

The only "works" to be found in the new testament is the attempt at achieving righteousness by adhering to the law.

Paul speaks over and over of the freedom we have in Christ. He's referring to the freedom we have in not having to obey the ceremonial law of Moses. This freedom comes from our faith in Christ. Faith is not a work, it's a requirement for those who seek an inheritance into the Kingdom of God.

Eternal security has blown this idea of works so far out of proportion that to even love Christ by obeying His commands is works.

Grace has been poured out on the whole world, only by faith can man claim that grace for himself.

The fact that we have to hear the Gospel message in order to believe it or not does not take away from God's sovereignty. Nor does keeping the commands of Christ, continuing in the faith, enduring to the end or holding on to the confidence we had at first.

Rest easy though, God still holds the trump card, our faith would all be in vain were it not for His precious grace.

 

[frumanchu]

Hey, Ben...how much of your manuscript are you going to cut and paste into the threads?

Have you come up with a good "responsible grace" explanation for 1 John 2:19 yet?

 

[Bulldog]

I belive in OSAS, but what about this verse?:

"Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. "(Luke 8:13)

 

[frumanchu]

I belive in OSAS, but what about this verse?:
"Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. "(Luke 8:13)

That verse is part of a parable (the parable of the sower). It's intended purpose in its context appears to be to prepare the disciples for what types of reactions they are likely to encounter when the gospel is preached. Some will turn away quickly in the face of persecution, others will walk away to pursue their lusts for the things of this world.

There are different 'types' of belief one can have. As Scripture tells us, the demons believe, but obviously such a belief is not unto salvation. Those who have a true saving faith in Christ will be revealed to others by their perseverance.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hey, Ben...how much of your manuscript are you going to cut and paste into the threads?

Hmph --- I rarely cut-n-paste. Unless it's something like my list of FORTY VERSES that STAND AGAINST OSAS. But I know the text very well, so my laboriously-typed posts do reflect heavily on the text. And very often the fool coputer CRASHES and I hafta RETYPE the post (you know Ben does long posts --- so it occasionally moves him nearly to SCREAMING FITS...)

There are different 'types' of belief one can have. As Scripture tells us, the demons believe, but obviously such a belief is not unto salvation. Those who have a true saving faith in Christ will be revealed to others by their perseverance.

The "belief" in Jms2:19 is the kind that produces no good works --- in other words, it is not a belief that RECEIVES JESUS.

Those in Luke8:13 "hear, receive the word with joy, and BELIEVE" --- there is no distinction made between the belief of the THIRTEENERS, and that of the FIFTEENERS; except those in verse fifteen HOLD IT FAST, BEAR FRUIT WITH PERSEVERANCE. And those in verse thirteen fall because of "persecution/affliction/temptation" (Mk4:17), There is no reason to believe Jesus was saying that the thirteeners' belief was FALSE or NEVER-SAVED.

Have you come up with a good "responsible grace" explanation for 1 John 2:19 yet?

Yes, we've discussed it; you remain unconvinced.

1Jn2:19 speaks of "antichrists who went out from us" --- a specific incident, specific antichrists. Does this mean that "ANYONE who GOES OUT FROM us was never WITH us"?

2Jn1:7-9 speaks to "children walking in the truth" (vs4), warns against "antichrists/deceivers --- so WATCH yourselves that you do not LOSE what was WROUGHT (but may receive FULL REWARD) --- anyone who GOES ON AHEAD and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD; he who abides has the Father AND the Son."

But (as I remember), your take on this is "he's speaking only of heavenly CROWNS that are wrought, not salvation ITSELF"; and there is a SUBJECT change between vs8 & 9", so you don't think the warning is against "BELIEVERS going on ahead (going too far) and not abiding in Christ's teachings" (which is identical to "going out FROM us").

You say "rewards are CROWNS, salvation is NOT A REWARD"...
I say "Paul calls salvation a REWARD in Col3:24"...
You say TOMATO...
I say TOMAHTO...

...WELLLL, sometimes I say "Tomater"....

 

[stiksensitive]

Luke 12
10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

I believe in OSAS, but this verse has always confused me. Can anyone exlpain it to me? Also:
11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
I would really appreciate an explanation! Thank you!

 

[stiksensitive]

I want to say something. You know that God knew us before we were born, and He knew the sin we would do. He knew these things before He formed us in the womb. He saw them, and continued. He knew we would fall away, or SIN,but He continued. He knew which ones would turn to Him. When we got saved, He accepted us into His family, in your immediate family, no matter what we do to them, no matter how we neglect them, they still are our family. Formed from the same flesh as you. We were recreated in Christ, and now belong in His family. No matter what we do to Him, or what we do FOR Him, we are still a part of Him, of Him, and a part of His family. NO MATTER WHAT!