OSAS? What do you believe?

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Romanbear

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Hi Faithful4ever; :wave:
If OSAS is true; Would you care to comment as to what is being said in this passage?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him a hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
In Christ; :)
Romanbear
 
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Andrew

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Forgiveness is required under the OC, if you want to be right with God. In fact, there are tons of things you have to do right and do it right all the time if you want to be right with God, so much so that no one can succeed. Hence the need for a Saviour.

Don't forget that when Jesus ministered on earth, he was born under law and still preached law to bring it back to it full impact so that the people wld see a need for a saviour and God's grace.

Under the NC, when a person is truly born of God, God is in him and he would want to forgive. So the case of the unforgiving servant is just not true for born again Christians who have experienced the love and forgiveness of God.

Also, if we are to apply the passage above to Christians today, then in light of "Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.", how many of us can forgive from our heart perfectly ie not miss out anyone? That alone wld put a lot of Christians in hell, including me!.
 
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Romanbear

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Hi Andrew; :wave:
While I respect your opinion I have to disagree in one way and agree in another.
A quote from you;

Also, if we are to apply the passage above to Christians today, then in light of "Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.", how many of us can forgive from our heart perfectly ie not miss out anyone? That alone wld put a lot of Christians in hell, including me!.

For years I had trouble with this. I figured that if you can't forget about it then you haven't forgiven. Because forgetting meant perfection. We have to face it, we will never be perfect in this flesh,It won't lets us.
I learned to forgive by praying for the understanding of imperfect forgiving. From the heart is easy.What this means is that you trully forgive them this doesn't mean you won't remember. It means you let it go and you don't bring it up again in a vengeful way. The Lord expects us to forgive because he forgave us. Holding a grudge against someone doesn't hurt them one bit because most times if they don't say they're sorry they could care less about weather you're holding a grudge. Most of the time the only one who suffers is the one holding the grudge. This also when someone says they're sorry and you feel you can't forgive. It just doesn't hurt them like it's going to hurt you. Letting go of it means you don't dwell on it anymore. Just do your best to not think about it anymore if you fail.Pray about it and start over.
To forgive those whom you may not be aware of anylonger is really easy. Just pray and tell the Lord that you forgive everyone who may have harmed you or sinned against you that you don't remember.
I realize that you believe in OSAS I did as well at one time but there are more than just mat18:35 to back it up
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

IMHO> there is no such thing as once saved always saved. in Rev. There are sins that are unto death even after being saved.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
If all this is a lie which it would have to be for OSAS to exsist.It exsist as long as we persever or continue in him. Hence the words Keep the faith brother.
In Christ :)
Romanbear
 
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2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Would anyone care to comment on the implications of the following verses concerning the doctrine of eternal security?

1. Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2. 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Finally, two questions that necessarily need answering:

1. "Can Christians dispose of (or throw away) their salvation?" rather than "Can Christians lose their salvation?"-?

2. Were the doctrine of eternal security founded in the bible and justifiably true, why would we be called to:

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

or

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

or

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

or

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 
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Colossians

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Hanani,

Christ death enables us to be saved it enables everyone to be saved but you have to have faith in Christ to be saved
And how do you get this faith?

Jesus died for everyone therefore giving everyone his grace but not everyone chooses to accept and use his grace
And why do some make a better choice than others?
 
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Yukerboy

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"1. Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

True enough. However, as for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

2. 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Had you gone on to the next verse "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. "

We are justified, sanctified, and washed. God has forgiven the elect.

"Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Absolutely, thus once saved always saved.

"1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Once again, the fact is a person can believe they are saved, yet never were.

"1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

Once again, never was it claimed that they were saved. Had they been elected, they could not be lost.

"1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

Once again, they departed from the faith, but were never saved to begin with.

"2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. "

You can know of the Bible and of God and not believe. Once again, never saved.

"2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

Amen.

Finally, two questions that necessarily need answering:

1. "Can Christians dispose of (or throw away) their salvation?" rather than "Can Christians lose their salvation?"-?

Absolutely not. Either a person is saved or they are not. There is no such thing as being saved and then unsaved. To do so is to claim God makes mistakes. He has known who was elect before the beginning of time.

2. Were the doctrine of eternal security founded in the bible and justifiably true, why would we be called to:

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

or

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

or

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

or

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

All the elect are called to do such. If you do not abide in Him and walk as He walked, you were never part of the elect.

Yuke
 
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PilgrimSteve

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Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

The book of Hebrews is a contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. To properly understand the book of Hebrews this must be kept in mind. One of the main keywords in Hebrews is “better” which is used in reference to the New Covenant. The writer of Hebrew is dealing with converts under the New Covenant who are going back to the things of the old covenant for whatever reason. There are about five different explanations for the five warning passages in Hebrews such as the verses above. Some teach that this is speaking about a false professor, one who came close to being saved even partaking of spiritual things. I reject this explanation because the writer uses the strongest possible words to describe one who is truly a Christian. Also in chapter 10 we read:

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

Notice that the person mentioned here cannot be a false professor because verse 29 says he was sanctified by the blood of the covenant or in other words he was set apart by the blood of Jesus. This cannot happen to anyone but a child of God. The unsaved are not sanctified by the blood of Jesus.

Another very popular explanation for these passages is that the person was truly a child of God but lost his salvation. I reject this explanation as well. First, there are to many Scriptures that teach that a child of God is granted eternal life at his conversion in Christ. If a person could lose their salvation then we have to redefine many words. For example “forever” would not mean forever, “eternal” would not mean eternal, “everlasting” would not mean everlasting, “never perish” would not mean never perish. Now if we change the meanings for these words in relation to salvation then we ought to be honest with ourselves and apply the same meaning wherever we see the words. So when Scripture teach that those who are thrown into the lake of fire and the smoke of their burning ascendeth forever then we must conclude that this might not br forever seeing the same word is used in relation to salvation. Look at the problems you would have if you are consistent in applying the same definitions to word concerning other issues as you do concerning salvation. Below is a small sample.

Rom. 16:26 “But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God.”

If salvation is not everlasting then a honest person would have to ask is God everlasting seeing the same word is used to describe both.

2 Cor. 9:9 “(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.”

If salvation is not forever how can God’s righteousness be forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Rev 4:9 “And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever , and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,”

If salvation is not forever then does the Lord live forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Hebrews 9:12 “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].”

Was it eternal redemption or was is temporary in some cases?

Heb. 10:14 “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin”

Did the Lord perfect forever those that are sanctified or in some cases only temporary?

Rev. 1:6 “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever . Amen”

If salvation is not forever then is the Lord’s glory and dominion for ever and ever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

If salvation is not forever then is the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”

If salvation is not forever then is the everlasting punishment of unbelievers forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?


2 Thes. 1:9 “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

Jude 1:13 “Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”

Mark 3:29 “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:”

I hope you can see the danger in redefining words with set meanings in order to accommodate a doctrine. This boils down to letting your doctrine define the Word of God instead of letting the Word of God define your doctrine. Here are the set meaning of some of the words, what right do we have in redefining them?

Forever
165 aion {ahee-ohn'}
from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Eternal life, Everlasting
166 aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,
since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Dwelleth
3306 meno {men'-o}
a root word; TDNT - 4:574,581; v
AV - abide 61, remain 16, dwell 15, continue 11, tarry 9, endure 3,
misc 5; 120
1) to remain, abide
1a) in reference to place
1a1) to sojourn, tarry
1a2) not to depart
1a2a) to continue to be present
1a2b) to be held, kept, continually
1b) in reference to time
1b1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
1b1a) of persons, to survive, live
1c) in reference to state or condition
1c1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
2) to wait for, await one

Everlasting
126 aidios {ah-id'-ee-os}
from 104; TDNT - 1:168,25; adj
AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2
1) eternal, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Perish
622 apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
from 575 and the base of 3639; TDNT - 1:394,67; v
AV - perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

that never shall be quenched
BDB/Thayers # 762
762 asbestos as'-bes-tos}
from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 4570;; adj
AV - unquenchable 2, never shall be quenched 2; 4
1) unquenched, unquenchable
1a) of eternal hell fire to punish the ******
Another explanation which I believe is the correct one is that the writer of Hebrews is using a hypothetical situation to make a point. This is the only explanation that I am aware of the does not violate other Scriptures. The writer of Hebrews is concerned that some are turning back to the Old Covenant ways so he sets out to prove how foolish this is in light of how much better the New Covenant is. His argument would amount to something like this for Hebrews 6:4-6 (the verses at the top of this post).

If it were possible for someone who is truly saved (verses 4-5) to fall away and abandon the salvation he has received by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus (verse 6). It would be impossible for him to be renewed to repentance (salvation) because in order for him to be renewed he would have to crucify the Son of God again, and put him to an open shame which will never happen (verse 6). The point being that outside of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus in the New Covenant there is no salvation.

I believe this explains Hebrews 10 as well.

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

The argument is something like this. If it were possible for a true Christian to sin willfully after receiving the gospel truth by rejecting it, there would be no hope of him ever getting saved again. The only thing awaiting him is the fiery indignation of God seeing that he has trodden under foot the Lord Jesus and counted His blood by which he was saved an unholy thing. The only way of salvation is through the blood of Jesus and if a Christian could reject that there is no hope for him seeing he rejected the only thing that could save his soul.

The hypothetical is the only way I know of that allows these verses to fall in perfect harmony with the rest of Scriptures. I hope this may help some. May God open all of our eyes of understanding.

PilgrimSteve
 
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PilgrimSteve

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Hi Frumanchu,

Thanks, here is another tract I did awhile back on eternal security you might like.

In the Image of Christ
Colossians 3:8-11

“The Gates of Hell”

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build
my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
Matthew 16:18


These are the words that Jesus spoke to Peter after he confessed in verse 16 that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is just one little sentence spoken by Jesus, yet it speaks volumes about the church. As we study God’s Word, we learn that the church is not buildings made up of brick and mortar, wood and nails, but by individuals who have placed their trust in Jesus for the salvation of their souls. These individuals are not called Christians because of where they attend, but because they have put their trust in Christ and follow Him.

One of the first things a careful student of the Bible will observe is that the church was not in existence at the time Jesus spoke these words. Notice that Jesus said, “I will build my church”. He is talking future tense here. This would not make sense if the church was already in existence. Also, we see that the church belongs to the Lord Jesus, He refers to it as, “my church”. The church doesn’t belong to any individual, family or group, no matter how important or famous or rich they may be. One can own a building or a piece of land, but not the church. The church belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ, because it was purchased with His very own blood (Acts 20:28). We also learn that the Lord Jesus is the master builder of the church; He said “I will build my church”. It is the Lord who adds to the church; we may co-labor with the Him, but it is the Lord who gives the increase (Acts 2:47, 1 Cor. 3:6-7).

As you have already seen, with just five words the Lord has taught us many wonderful things concerning the church. Yet, I believe one of the priceless truths for the believer is to be found in the remaining part of the verse, “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. The truth that is taught here is most precious because it clearly declares the security of salvation that the one who believes has. There are many today who teach that a person can be saved and yet somehow afterwards lose their salvation. Some say that a person can lose their salvation by his own will, saying he no longer wishes to be saved, others teach that a person can lose his salvation by willful sin.

Those who think that a true believer could lose his salvation for whatever reason would have difficultly reconciling their belief with this verse. You see, if a person could lose their salvation it would make Jesus out to be a liar in this verse, since the gates of hell would in fact prevail against the church. It would be helpful to understand what Jesus was talking about when He spoke of the gates of hell. Death and the grave throughout the scriptures is called hell or hades. Acts 2:26-31 is a good example of this when speaking about the Lord Jesus.

“Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption”.
In Luke 16:19-31 we read about the rich man and Lazarus. In verse 22 we read “the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments”. In this passage we learn that the rich man’s body was buried in a grave yet his soul was being tormented in hell. Hell, then, is the place for those who die in their sins, those who never called on the name of the Lord for salvation (Rom. 10:9-13). It is a place of great unrelenting torment and eternal suffering (Rev. 14:9-11 20:10-15)

The gates of hell open to receive the dead but they never open to let the dead escape. This is a sobering thought. Friend, if you die in this life without Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior your dwelling place will be in the torments and sufferings of hell where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. There is no escape from that place. The only time death and hell will give up the dead is when the dead are judged and thrown into the lake of fire along with death and hell (Rev. 20:13-15). This is the wrath of God that all men deserve because of their rebellion and sin against Him. Yet, because of His great love for us, God sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to die in our place. God poured out His wrath on His own Son, the divine Substitute, so that those who place their trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior would never see the wrath of God which is the second death. Instead of wrath, God gives eternal life to those that trust in His Son (John 3:16, 5:24, 10:27-30). They will never see the second death. This is why I say that those who believe that you can lose this great salvation would have to make Jesus out to be a liar when He said, “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” You see, if even one individual Christian (Remember that the church is made up of individuals who place their trust in the Lord Jesus) could lose their salvation and end up behind the gates of hell, then the gates of hell would in fact have prevailed against the church. Death would still have its sting and the grave would still have its victory. The apostle Paul would not have been able to declare these words in
1 Corinthians 15:54-57:

“So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
PilgrimSteve

 
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QUOTE=frumanchu Let me offer a different view. The will is governed by desire. Our choices will always be made according to a desire. The effects of the Fall leave man desiring to reject God Gen 6:5, 8:21, romans 3:10-11...to put his faith elsewhere. It is only after this desire is changed that we desire God and therefore choose to accept Christ. We cannot possibly change that desire of our own accord because we would have to desire God before we desired God (a clear violation of the basic law of non-contradiction and a manifest absurdity). That works both ways. We cannot not desire God before we don't desire Him! Gal 4:6-7, Hebrew 12:5-11

For one to 'lose their salvation' God would have to change their desire back to one which seeks someone other than Him...He would have to author sin (not to mention break His promise).

word again ...but for those people who disagree needs verses to check this knowledge from God themselves


add more verses please like the ear verse and new heart verse
sorry my mind not working well
 
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Ruht

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One cannot lose something eternal that one already has, and the saved already have eternal life (John 5:24; John 6:47; John 5:54; I John 5:13).

Salvation is by grace, by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not by trying not to sin or by not sinning. Therefore one cannot lose their salvation by sinning.

All beliefs against eternal security are rooted in legalism, all of them. And Christian legalism is caused by men not understand grace, and therefore by not interpreting scripture properly.

Ruht
 
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Gamecock

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Jodi Sue said:
OKAY HERE'S A GOOD QUESTION................................WHO BELIEVE'S OSAS (ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED)? I PERSONALLY DON'T BELIEVE IN IT. BUT I DO BELIEVE IF YOU REPENT, YOU ARE FORGIVEN.

Hmm, I have to ask, what scripture do you base this on????

Every peice of scripture I can think of indicates those who in their hearts accept Christ and repent will be counted among the Saints.

It must be scary to think you are saved by your own exertions rather than the promise of God. To think that I am one second away from losing my salvation would be more than I could bear!

:hug:
 
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Mounts

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Salvation by very definition means exactly that: Salvation! If salvation can be lost... then salvation isn't salvation. A misunderstanding of God's sovereign role in salvation is the result of such erronous theologies such as one can lose his salvation.

I can't think of clearer verses than Eph. 1:4 and Rom. 8:29-31 to state that salvation cannot be lost. Those verses speak very clearly, so I am often confused at how some argue Changable-Salvation. In fact, to say that one can lose his salvation in Christ goes against the whole point of the Cross and against many scriptures all in itself.

I would have to agree completly with Gamecock,

Hmm, I have to ask, what scripture do you base this on????

Every peice of scripture I can think of indicates those who in their hearts accept Christ and repent will be counted among the Saints.

It must be scary to think you are saved by your own exertions rather than the promise of God. To think that I am one second away from losing my salvation would be more than I could bear!


Correct Gamecock, that theology only brings fear and suffering, and it is a result of a misunderstanding of salvation itself. I would imagine many develope this theology by wrongly interpreting the vines that God will cut off? Those are the only verses I can perceive at the moment that one may twist to develope such theology.
 
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Hanani said:
Soldier of God you have a scewed sence of the word Grace [eph 6:24,gal 6:18,2 cor 13:14,ect] and lets not forget the ever popular in this argument "faith without works is dead" Romans 4:2 i do not believe in once saved always saved it's an excuse to sin Its called free will to live as a son or not but if not comes disapline hebrews 12:5-11 which is wrong and lie no matter how you slice it or in the off chance that osas is true then many many people never were saved even though they may have believed 1 cor 15:2 believed in vain no purpose they were because for osas to stand up without being a excuse for sinning everyone that has ever been saved from the time they got saved on must have NEVER sinned 1 john 1:10 or if they did sin must have repented from that sin so basicly for this to be true very few people would be saved1 john 1:8-9 and i probably would not be one of them at the moment but thats a different issue :p
another sorvergity vs free will debate
 
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PreacherFergy

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I'm arriving late to this thread, so I didn't take the time to read each post. My beliefs are this:

When you are truly saved by the grace of God, you have a new nature (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10; 2 Pet. 1:4) so you will always live a Christian life, though at times you do sin (we all sin, 1 John 1:5-10). There is no way that you could ever lose your salvation. I belive Christ's work on Calvary was sufficient, not only to save me, bu to KEEP me saved:

In His hands,
Jonathan Ferguson

PS: I would elaborate more, but my laptop seems to be having a few problems.
 
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Sunbeam

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I don't believe in OSAS. All day we have choices that affect us. I believe that we need to continue changing as our lives change as well and they always do. What we did 10 years ago as a christian may have been fine for then but today is a different story with different circumstances. I don't think we can say that because we were fine then, we will always be. People change as well, and we have to make sure that we don't change along with them if its for the bad. We are introduced to new things all the time that require choices from us as to whether this will affect us as a christian. Everything has an affect on us and our Spirits.
 
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PreacherFergy

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Sunbeam said:
I don't believe in OSAS. All day we have choices that affect us. I believe that we need to continue changing as our lives change as well and they always do. What we did 10 years ago as a christian may have been fine for then but today is a different story with different circumstances. I don't think we can say that because we were fine then, we will always be. People change as well, and we have to make sure that we don't change along with them if its for the bad. We are introduced to new things all the time that require choices from us as to whether this will affect us as a christian. Everything has an affect on us and our Spirits.
Your reasoning may make since to you, but it is foreign to the Bible. The Lord declares in Mal. 3:6, "For I am the LORD, I change not." He does not change, when He saves someone, His faithful promise to impute the righteousness of Christ to them remains the same. Christians are a peculiar people (Titus 2:14), Christians are changed, they have a new heart, etc. therefore they don't act the same, nor will *true* Christians revert to their whole life (1 John 2:19).
 
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Thunderchild

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Repentance involves undertaking to never again commit the same offence(s)

My earlier post regarding "before the foundation of the Earth" as being a reference to the time of choosing (He chose us in him before the foundation of the Earth) was incorrect - studies undertaken since that time show that before the foundation of the Earth describes him.

The general application of the word, us, does not imply each, individually. When a person leaves a group (a youth group, for example) he ceases to be of "us" (as a member of the youth group), but the "us" of the youth group continues to exist. God does not withdraw from his people, in truth. But when a person ceases to be of God's people, that prior condition also ceases to apply to the individual concerned. Or perhaps someone can be handed over to Satan if this is not so.
 
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Mordacai

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Jodi Sue said:
OKAY HERE'S A GOOD QUESTION................................WHO BELIEVE'S OSAS (ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED)? I PERSONALLY DON'T BELIEVE IN IT. BUT I DO BELIEVE IF YOU REPENT, YOU ARE FORGIVEN.

We are saved by grace through faith. The grace is God's the faith is our's. Only the righteous will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, and only by faith can righteousess be imputed to us. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

As long as we continue in the faith we are saved, but if we let the cares and temptations of this world distract us, then we run a very real risk of shifting our faith to another entity thus falling from grace.

Only God knows who will endure to the end. So for all intents and purposes, if we wish to inherit the Kingdom of God then it's best to remain on the narrow road.

----------------
Scott
 
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