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OSAS? What do you believe?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Jodi Sue, Feb 19, 2003.

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  1. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

    +434
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    I think that before looking at 2 Peter 1:9-11 you should take a look a little earlier in the passage at verses 3 and 4: "His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our KNOWLEDGE OF HIM WHO CALLED US BY HIS OWN GLORY AND GOODNESS. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promise, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world cause by evil desires."

    This is not speaking of conditional salvation at all. It is speaking of what happens as a result of salvation. Go on to read in verse 5 and you will see that Peter encourages the believer to "add to his faith" certain good qualities.

    Keep on reading and you will see in verse 8 that not possessing these qualities makes you an ineffective Christian - it does not make you a person who is bound for hell. Verse nine speaks of a "forgetfullness" of being saved.

    The "conditional" aspect of these verses is one of ineffectiviness and forgetfullness - not death/hell. This is why Peter is saying in verse 10 to be absolutely sure that you are saved. Being sure is the same thing as knowing. " Knowing" is understanding the concept of Grace provided for by Christ at Calvary.

    OSAS is the only thing that makes complete sense to me - anything else is illogical.
     
  2. Disciple2003

    Disciple2003 New Member

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    Actually, Heb 6:4-8 is absolutely speaking of those who are truly saved.  If you look closely, you will see that they possess five characteristics of the saved state; 1) They are enlightened, that is they possess true knowledge and understanding of the gospel; 2) They have tasted of the heavenly gift, the gift of salvation; 3) They "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit", having drunk the living water (John 7:37-39, 1 Cor 12:13); 4) They "have tasted the good word of God", having believed and received its promises; 5) They have tasted "the powers of the age to come", referring to the already experienced resurrection from spiritual death (Eph 2:5, Col 2:12-13).

    The use of the word "taste" (geuomai) in these verses does not imply a tentative, aborted sampling of salvation in contrast with actual eating or consuming.  Look at Hebrews 2:9 where the same word is used for Christ's "tasting death" on the cross.  Would anyone dare say that Christ only sampled death for us?  It is used rather to contrast the real but incomplete salvation experience in this life with the 'fullness' of salvation to be received in glory, in the same sense that the present gift of the indwelling Holt Spirit is but a pledge or down payment of the full inheritance that is to come (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13-14).  The fact that those to whom this passage speaks are true Christians is also shown in the statement that, if they fall away, "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (v. 6).  To speak of REnewing them AGAIN to repentance indicates that they were once in a state of repentance, indicative of salvation.

     
    Yes, scripture teaches that eternal life is a gift of God to the sinner who repents, believes and receives Christ.  But scripture also teaches that it is possible to stop repenting, to stop believing, to stop accepting Christ as Lord.  The gift itself is not eternal.  The gift is eternal life.  In other words, there is nothing telling us that once we accept this gift we cannot give it back or change OUR minds.  God has not changed His heart or mind.  He will forever receive and save all those who come to and remain in Christ.  We must remember that the gift is offered to us because of God's wonderful grace, but our acceptance of it and maintaining it are conditional.  But we must also remember that we are able to do this only because of God's Holy Spirit that is in us.

     
     
  3. Disciple2003

    Disciple2003 New Member

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    The first part of your statement is only partially true.  The qualities Peter lists are, in a sense, a result of salvation because they are added to faith.  However, they are not guaranteed or automatic.  They will be developed only by the Christian who is conscientiously striving to be like Christ, to grow in grace by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    The second part of your statement has serious problems.  Not possessing these qualities and increasing in them does not simply make us ineffective.  We must understand what being 'fruitful' means.  It is suggested by verse 8 that not having these things would make us unfruitful.  Jesus makes it very clear in John 15:1-11 that anyone who does not abide (remain) in Him, thus not bearing fruit, will be cast into the fire and burned.

    You will have to explain to me how someone can "forget" they are saved and still be saved.  That baffles me.  Isaiah reminded the righteous of Israel to "look unto the rock which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were dug." (Isaiah 51:1)  To become forgetful and unmindful of what a blessing it is to have our sins removed is disastrous to our souls!!  "How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered!" (Psa 32:1)

     
     
  4. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

    +94
    Christian



    Disciple2003, I may have responded to the wrong person here.
    This is not to you but to whoever said that the scripture in Hebrews does not apply;

    You are sorely mistaken.

    Paul was talking to Jewish converts who were falling away from the faith because of Roman and Jewish persecution.
     
  5. Ezra

    Ezra New Member

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    Actually that was my post. Your statement above should be modified to reflect what is actually being said in the Book of Hebrews, not what people often assume. Paul was talking to Jewish&nbsp;believers who were IN DANGER OF FALLING AWAY or DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH or APOSTATISING, by returning to the "shadows" of temple worship, and ordinances regarding meats, drinks, "divers washings", and "carnal ordinances imposed on them until the time of reformation" (Heb.9:10). It was not so much "Roman and Jewish" persecution [as is commonly said] but the persecution from "Judaizing Christians" within the churches (see Galatians).

    This would have nullified the "better" things which Christ brought in through His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.&nbsp;There is a world of difference between "being in danger of doing something", and actually doing it. &nbsp;However, with all the dire warnings Paul gives, he also comes back with assurances that they will not fall away.&nbsp; Here are some of Paul's satements:

    "Take heed brethren, lest [if perhaps] there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.&nbsp; But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today, lest [ if perhaps] any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin... Let us therefore fear, lest [if perhaps], a promise being left us of entering into His [God's] rest, any of you should SEEM TO COME SHORT OF IT...[not have already come short of it].&nbsp;For we which have believed DO ENTER INTO REST...&nbsp;&nbsp;Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Heb. 3:12-13; 4:13,16).

    So when we come to Hebrews 6:4-8, IT IS A DIRE WARNING TO THOSE WHO MIGHT CONSIDER TURNING THEIR BACKS ON CHRIST and returning to Moses. Today we have Messianic Jews doing exactly the same thing, yet professing to be Christians. They're not exactly turning their back on Christ, but adding Moses to Christ. They are the same "Judaizing Christians" Paul had to deal with.&nbsp; Only God knows their hearts, and perhaps these warnings will apply to them.

    However, when we proceed to Heb. 6:9, Paul gives assurance to these believers that they are still in Christ and WILL NOT FALL AWAY: "But beloved, WE ARE PERSUADED BETTER THINGS OF YOU, AND [notice carefully] THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION, [even] though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love [not possible is they are not truly born-again], which ye have shewed toward His name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister."

    So, it's like someone warning his son about the dire consequences of playing with matches, but then assuring him that he knows it will not happen because "You love Dad and your family".




    &nbsp;
     
  6. Ezra

    Ezra New Member

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    God does not play word games when a soul's eternal destiny is in the balance. "The gift is not eternal, the gift is eternal life" is "doubletalk". Because the gift is eternal life, it is ETERNALLY yours. Otherwise it would be temporary eternal life, a total contradiction in terms. Because the giver is God, there is no comparison to human "Indian givers". Because it is a gift of grace, there is nothing you ever did or will ever do to make you "deserve"&nbsp;the keeping of&nbsp;this gift.&nbsp; It was freely given to the vilest of sinners (Saul before he became Paul) and nothing could change that fact (see Romans 8:28-39).

    Coming to your statement, "it is possible to stop repenting, stop believing, stop receiving", you seem to be suggesting that the new birth is a daily, weekly or annual event and goes on throughout the life of the believer. That would indeed be tragic. Now think very carefully. When a child is born into the world physically, can he be "unborn" and replaced in his mother's womb for another such experience?&nbsp; Then read John 1:12-13;&nbsp;3:1-18, and see if the child of God can be somehow "unborn"?&nbsp; The new birth is a ONE-TIME occurrence which confers the GIFT of eternal life to the believer. Just thank the Lord and enter into His rest (Heb.4:1-11).

    &nbsp;




    &nbsp;
     
  7. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

    +94
    Christian
    "Actually that was my post. Your statement above should be modified to reflect what is actually being said in the Book of Hebrews, not what people often assume. Paul was talking to Jewish believers who were IN DANGER OF FALLING AWAY or DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH or APOSTATISING, by returning to the "shadows" of temple worship, and ordinances regarding meats, drinks, "divers washings", and "carnal ordinances imposed on them until the time of reformation" (Heb.9:10). It was not so much "Roman and Jewish" persecution [as is commonly said] but the persecution from "Judaizing Christians" within the churches (see Galatians). "




    FOC;

    Although I do believe that my previous comment was correct, your post does present an additional possibility that I would like to study out further.

    That the Jewish converts were being persecuted is apparent.
    I am always open to new ideas.

    Can you give me a little more detail on how you conclude that this was only tied in with the Galations?
    I am intrigued.......

     
  8. Eze 36 26 28

    Eze 36 26 28 New Member

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    Wow...a lot has happened since I last checked.

    I will be plain and straight forward here. Here is what I believe.

    In the beginning, before the creation of anything, God chose the elect, those to be saved in the future. (Ephesians 1:4, Romans 8:29) He then made many covenants and etc with the Hebrew people. He also gave the Hebrews the levitical system, with 3 roles, the priest, the king and the prophet. (scripture is scattered throughout Leviticus and Deuteronomy.) The role of king is to rule the people of God. The role of the priest is to intervene for the people of God and also speak to God through the people, not to mention the ceremonial purification of sins. The role of the prophet is to speak to the people for God. Now, the most confusing and complicated role is the role of a priest. The author in Hebrews wrote chapter after chapter to validate Jesus' priesthood. The priest was to ceremonially clean the people through sacrifices. (Hebrews 10, beginning and also leviticus and deutoronomy but I dont' want to go look in there for verses right now). Now how was Jesus a priest, since he isn't in the line of the Levite? Because Jesus was a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7). Therefore, Jesus fulfills or will fulfill all of the requirements to be messiah so therefore he is. (Paul also talks of this in Romans 1)
    Now, why did the priests have to sacrifice in the tabernacle? Because in the Old testament, I make the supposition that the Holy Spirit was at work in many people, but it is unable to endwell the believers. (King david "Do not take thy holy spirit from me"). The reason that the spirit is able to endwell us is because we are ceremonially clean, and if we aren't clean, then it was unable to endwell us since in his holiness, he can't stand unholiness. (The hatred of unholiness from God is apparent all over scripture) Now what is different between now and then? Well, Jesus dies on the cross and cleans all of our sins, so now, the Holy Spirit is able to endwell us. (Acts 1:8, Luke where Jesus says it is profitable that I go away so the father may send an eternal helper...)

    Now how does this relate to salvation? Well, God chose who he will save at the beginning of time, so therefore the names of those who will be saved are set. You are unable to lose your salvation, nor are you able to gain your salvation. Now how do I get around verses like Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10? Well, I say that he will reward us after we die. (1st Cor 3:13) Now I believe that the author of Hebrews is addressing our reward instead of our salvation. Be careful with this though, because I don't believe all scripture does the same, like for example, when Jesus talks about the guy falling off the rock in John I believe, I think he means the one that believes and falls away and was never elect.
    What will the rewards be? Well, scripture doesnt' give us a clear and concise defination but it does something about crowns. (there's a lot, but only verse I remember is 2 Tim 4:7, around that verse). You see, in Hebrews, he's speaking to the saints, but he's also saying well, if you were saved, and you apostate, well, you'll be in pretty bad shape later because you just lost pretty much all your rewards.

    &nbsp;

    Now speaking of assurance.&nbsp; Well, you see, it is stated in scripture that only the spirit can allow you to bare fruit.&nbsp; (Just cause i'm doing this in QT, Mark, when Jesus says "let all those who have ears come and listen", well, in revelations&nbsp;3:6 I believe, Jesus says "let all those who have ears come and listen to what the spirit says to the churches."&nbsp; Well, I am supposing that he means the spirit when he says that in Mark and right before, he was talking about fruit, there are other examples that say that, but this one came to mind first.)&nbsp; Well, if you are only able to bare fruit if you have the spirit, and you can only have the spirit if your saved, so...&nbsp; =D&nbsp; what would be our assurance then?&nbsp; Our assurance is that if we are bareing fruit, then we must be saved.&nbsp; Now in 2nd Peter, he lists things that possibly deemed as fruit, if you do it in faith, verse 5.&nbsp; How are we able to have faith in the church age?&nbsp; Through the holy spirit!&nbsp; =D&nbsp; Now this is where it gets tricky, kind of.&nbsp; Because we have to do these things in faith to have assurance, Peter says do these things and you will have assurance, but if you fall away later, then you will lose your assurance.&nbsp; You see, you are able to have your assurance and not be elect and also you are able to not have your assurance and still be saved.&nbsp; Its like a chemical PH indicator in a time based reaction.&nbsp; It can be blue one day and red the other and it can change back.&nbsp; Peter says that as long as you keep doing those things and they are increasing in you, you are making more sure that you were elected because this is the characteristics of the elect.&nbsp;

    So this is what I believe.&nbsp; God elects, he calls us, we believe,&nbsp; our sins&nbsp;are wiped clean,&nbsp;we recieve the spirit, we are sanctified, and we bare fruit, which in turn at the day of judgement, christ rewards us for our fruit.&nbsp; =D&nbsp; That is my breakdown of salvation.&nbsp; I didn't have my bible on hand so I'm really sorry for the handwaving on some verses.&nbsp; Now I have actually circumvented most of the controversy.&nbsp; The real controversy begins when we talk about do we need faith to be saved?(I can state one case in the bible where someone wasn't saved because of faith)&nbsp; What does our faith do?&nbsp; What does the holy spirit do in us?&nbsp; Can we ever reject the holy spirit?&nbsp; Can we reject God's call for us?(think of Judas)&nbsp; Also, when you talk about the regenerate spirit, when does regeneration begin?&nbsp; Do you have to be regenerate to recieve the spirit and etc.&nbsp; I won't address those issues, since they have been the crux of the calvinist/armenian debate and are no easy matters to address.&nbsp; I do believe that Paul lays out our salvation in Romans.&nbsp; He also kind of summarizes in Ephesians 1, but a deep understanding of romans is required!&nbsp; =D&nbsp;
     
  9. Disciple2003

    Disciple2003 New Member

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    Ezra - I'm getting a little confused by your arguments.&nbsp; You seem to be accepting these verses in Hebrews 6 as stating the possibility of falling away, but only for Jews who have accepted Christ.&nbsp; Be very careful with this line of thinking.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Verse 4 begins with "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened..."&nbsp; 'Those' would imply all Christians, not just the Hebrews.&nbsp; The writer here in no way indicates that this is strictly a warning to those who were being persecuted.


    You speak of the difference between "being in danger of doing something" and actually doing it.&nbsp; To my knowledge, no one has suggested that the writer of Hebrews was saying that his readers had already fallen away.&nbsp; This is certainly a warning.&nbsp; However, that says nothing about what the warning means.&nbsp; It still says that the possibility exists for anyone to fall away by THEIR own choice, not only the Jews.&nbsp; How could it be that this warning would be for only one group of people?&nbsp; How could it be that a Jewish believer could possibly fall away, but you and I have no&nbsp;risk of doing so?

    &nbsp;
    I'm sorry, but this is a very poor example to prove your point.&nbsp; I'm guessing that maybe you don't have children.&nbsp; There is no possible way for any parent to assure their child that they will not cause a tragedy with matches.&nbsp; We teach them the dangers, but ultimately they will make the choice to still play with them or not.&nbsp; Our assurance as a parent is this: "If you DO NOT play with those matches, then I guarantee that you will not burn yourself or harm your family with fire".&nbsp; BUT, "If you choose to play with them, then you stand at risk of burning yourself or starting a fire that might harm others."

    &nbsp;
     
  10. Eze 36 26 28

    Eze 36 26 28 New Member

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    Disciple 2003,

    You say that the author of hebrews talks to all christians ever. Be careful with this line of thinking. Within the context of Hebrews, he is only speaking to the Jewish christians of the time. What he says could apply to all of us, but he is only specifically speaking to the jewish christians at the time, its just like what paul writes applies to all of us, but he writes only with the specific churches in mind.

    I believe that many of the hebrews have apostated. I mean what he means by apostating is different than today. I believe that Hebrews was written before 70AD. (Hebrews refers to the destruction of the temple which occured at 70AD by the general tidus) This would mean that persecution is that of Nero, after the burning of rome. (other things in the books says that) The type of apostating is not having like sexual immoralites or not doing quiet times, (they might be, we dont' know), but scripture targets Jesus and proves his superiority to Judaism. This is because under Nero and Domician and etc, if they say that they were christian, they were to be excuted, so therefore, they were saying well, Judaism establishes the same goal, its the same god and etc, so why not go back to judaism, and still serve god rather than die.

    I think you guys are really missing assurance of salvation. Look at my post. My assurance is that I think i'm baring fruit and other people can be assured of my salvation because they have seen my fruit. Paul says this to many churches and Peter establishes this in 2nd Peter 1:14 i believe (no bible on me, its in hebrews 1 i'm sure).
     
  11. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    This statement does not make sense. If we have to "watch it" to have assurance of salvation, then how can we ever have assurance of salvation unless we know perfectly that we will always be able to keep the faith and "maintain the things that go with it".

    You mean to tell me that you are absolutely sure that you will always be able to maintain your faith and whatever else that needs to be maintain in order to keep your salvation? Whoa, you are really confident.

    And I thot salvation was a free gift.
     
  12. settergren

    settergren In Christ Alone

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    I don't agree on your basis for why God chooses people. If God chooses people because they first choose Him then he didn't really choose them at all. In fact, He then just recognizes or acknowledges their choice of Him and in a sense doesn't have a choice in who comes to Him. If there was a captain of a softball team who had to choose his team but he only choose those who choose to have him as their captain, he didn't actually choose those individuals. And is in a sense not really the captain of that team. The word foreknew can be interpreted with forelove. They terms are synominous. We loved him because he first loved us.

    However, your explanation of Romans 8:28-30 doesn't mention OSAS. That was the point I was making initialy. Those whom God predetines to salvation end up being saved. They go to heaven, just as you pointed out. How then can these individuals who are predestined to heaven, end up in hell??? In other words, in light of this passage, those who are truly saved and justified, will be brought to glory. Meaning, they won't fall away and go to hell, they will be with God in heaven.
     
  13. Follower of Christ

    Follower of Christ Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a

    +94
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    One thing for sure, this is an amazing topic.

    No matter what the final answer is, it sure reveals some amazing things about our God
     
  14. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
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    "of all those that you have given me I have lost none, save that son of perdition" Jesus, to the Father, regarding Judas.

    What did Jesus claim? that none whom the Father has given him can be lost? or that none whom the Father has given him will be cast aside?

    "If you were my disciples then the truth would set you free" Jesus, to the believers from among the Jews.

    Did Jesus say that those who believe are set free?
     
  15. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
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    We who are obedient have assurance of salvation
    We who love God have assurance of salvation (obedience = demonstration of love)
    We who persevere to the end have assurance of salvation

    Of what do the disobedient, the unbelieving, and those who resile have an assurance?
     
  16. Gideon4God

    Gideon4God Regular Member

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    I agree, Amen.&nbsp;
     
  17. frumanchu

    frumanchu God's justice does not demand second chances Supporter

    +450
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    Let me offer a different view. The will is governed by desire. Our choices will always be made according to a desire. The effects of the Fall leave man desiring to reject God...to put his faith elsewhere. It is only after this desire is changed that we desire God and therefore choose to accept Christ. We cannot possibly change that desire of our own accord because we would have to desire God before we desired God (a clear violation of the basic law of non-contradiction and a manifest absurdity). That works both ways. We cannot not desire God before we don't desire Him!

    For one to 'lose their salvation' God would have to change their desire back to one which seeks someone other than Him...He would have to author sin (not to mention break His promise).
     
  18. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Biblically, the will is likened to the desire of a person's spirit, desire is the will of the person's flesh.

    The conflicts arising are documented, as is the fact that a person is free to choose which of the two will govern his actions.
     
  19. Online Bible Debator

    Online Bible Debator New Member

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    Faith needs the works to produce!!

    James 2:18 _Yes, a man will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
    19 _You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
    20 _But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?
    21 _Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    22 _You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected;
    23 _and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;” and he was called the friend of God.
    24 _You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith.
    25 _In like manner wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?
    26 _For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
     
  20. faithful4ever

    faithful4ever New Member

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    God sent the holy spirit to dwell in us when we became "saved" and that holy spirit, according to scripture, is our seal. He is the proof of our salvation. We are saved not by the perishable, but by the imperishable. If any man's works are burned up, he himself will be saved(1 Corin 3:15). I could go on and on, but this topic is wornout over and over again. All scripture points to one thing, but our human nature causes confusion and we make it point to two: u can lose ur salvation and u cant lose ur salvation. So therefore, let us go back to the nature of the cross. Saying u can lose ur salvation is saying that the price Christ payed was not sufficient. The price he payed was perfectly sufficient, otherwise, it would not have been payed. There would be no point. ppl get mixed up b/c they mistake sanctification for justification. Our works sanctify us. Our faith justifies us. Anyway, i have to go now, so i must cut this short. God bless u all!
     
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