OSAS/Perseverance of saints & salvation without faith

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Anto9us

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Heb 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

In Hebrews, the writer warns against a root of bitterness springing up, and warns against letting any man fail of the grace of God.

In Galatians, I really don't believe Paul is saying particular Galatians have lost their salvation, he is just warning against judaizers adding works to gospel.
 
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Saint Steven

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What part of faith is not a work don't you understand? Yeah God does all the work of salvation, only if I choose not to resist him.
So, God won't save you if you resist him?
Don't you do that every day in some way? Now what?
 
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Saint Steven

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Here's something to consider.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
 
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Loren T.

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So, God won't save you if you resist him?
Don't you do that every day in some way? Now what?
I never said falling away was a simple matter. But yeah I resisted the spirit many many times before I gave in.
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"

"Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off."
 
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Saint Steven

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I never said falling away was a simple matter. But yeah I resisted the spirit many many times before I gave in.
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"

"Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off."
Okay.
So, are you lost or saved?
 
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Anto9us

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I am saved because at age 19 I confessed with my heart that Jesus is Lord and believed in my heart that God raised Him from the dead. I must maintain that belief -- and be willing to confess Him -- from here on out, til He returns or I die, whichever comes first. Most likely I will die, but "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" so it's possible He will return while I live.
 
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Saint Steven

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notice the proviso - providing you continue
Right.
It cannot be a provision if it can't be measured.
How much did you continue? Could you have continued more? (sure) Did you continue enough? (who can say?) Did you continue enough to be saved? (How much is enough?)
 
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Anto9us

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Jennifer Rothnie

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There are really two things in focus when discussing this topic, one of which is almost always not considered by those who claim a loss of salvation. One of these is salvation itself and it is known as a recreation, or purchasing by Another, and a sealing until the day we are redeemed, which bodily hasn't happened yet, which implies the sealing persists. The other deals with the loss of reward or standing, which is where we see things in the parables where people are assigned a portion or reward of the unbelievers, which means they get nothing in the end, and Paul describes the condition as those who will have everything burned up, but they themselves will be saved. I do notice a lot of crossover between these two areas by those want to hang on to salvation loss, by mixing the two areas when it suits their need.

However, I have never seen the verses which show another recreation of us by God for those who 'walk away'. It's put across as some as act we do, but it would require a simultaneous act by God as well to recreate us back to our former selves. I've also never seen the verses that show since God purchased us and we no longer belong to ourselves, how we can successfully purchase ourselves back from God to give us the right and ability to walk away, and what price would be acceptable to Him that would supersede the blood of Jesus, or the verses that show how to undo a sealing by the Spirit in 3 easy steps.

There's just too many holes in that whole 'loss of salvation' theory.

Those don't seem to be so much holes as you are reading philosophical speculations into terms and circumstances which aren't necessarily implied or demanded by scripture.

First:
The seal of the Holy Spirit doesn't require that we will necessarily continue in faith. That isn't a connotation 'seal' has. For example, the seal on Jesus' tomb didn't literally seal him in or prevent Jesus from leaving- it showed the authority of Rome over anyone who would dare tamper with the seal. In a similar fashion, the seal of the Holy Spirit is God's guarantee that He will uphold His promises and His seal of authority over anyone who would try to snatch someone in the covenant away. But the seal doesn't prevent a person from exiting that contract by rejecting faith - and subsequently rejecting any claim to the promises he would have had had he remained.
[Question: What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/29251?ori=167400]

Second: While a few verses reference a loss of reward or standing due to lack of works or sin, etc. there are many passages which clearly describe someone who does not continue in faith or remain in Christ as being cut out of the body of Christ and being destroyed, or with a final state worse than their pre-faith state of unbelief, or having no more sacrifice for sins, or being condemned, etc. (Rom 11:10-22, Jn 15:5-6, etc.) These cannot all be lumped together as many are explicitly clear that for a person to reject Christ after once believing will lead to themselves being denied before the Father.
[Question: What exactly does "fall away" mean in Heb 6:6?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/28836?ori=167400
Question: Does Hebrews 10:26 mean that a believer can lose salvation?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/7631?ori=167400]

Third: 'Re-creation' is a nonsensical phrase to apply to someone who returns to a former state or goes back to something he was once involved in, and so not finding it from scripture isn't just an argument from silence but is illogical. When we physically die God doesn't 're-create' us into dust - we decompose or are burned and 'return' to dust. Likewise someone who once had faith and rejected it is not 're-created' into their former state but rather 'returns' to it. The indwelling Spirit departs since they are not a believer, and without the Spirit they cannot continue in life with Christ. Hosea's wife wasn't 'recreated' into a prostitute when she returned to her old ways. A freed slave is not 're-created' into a slave if he returns to an old master. When God removed the priesthood he promised to Levi's descendents from Eli's family, they were not 're-created' into non-priests. A dirty person who washes is not recreated into a dirty person when they return to the mud. Fruit that ripens isn't 'recreated' into non-fruit when it later rots. Etc.
Scripture uses terms like 'twice dead (Jude 1:12),' 'return/again entangled (II Pet 2:20-22)' etc. to describe these people.

4th: Redemption doesn't stop us from rejecting God or ceasing to trust Him. How many times did Israel turn away and reject God, despite that they were the nation God redeemed? But more importantly, we only can have Christ's redemption if we have faith.

"The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal 3:11-14

If we reject that faith, then we return to being under the law and hence return to condemnation.

"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we hold redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col 1:3-14

If we reject faith and stop remaining in Christ, then in whom do we hold redemption?

5th: God 'buying us' doesn't mean He bought us from Satan or some person and that person or Satan would have to 'buy us back.'

We were redeemed from the curse of the law, Galatians 3:13; from God's wrath, Ephesians 2:3; from guilt and bondage to sin, Romans 3:19-21; and redeemed as God’s property (Ephesians 2:19; Ephesians 1:14.) The price God paid was the blood of Christ (Matthew 26:28; 2 Corinthians 5:18; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:18; Revelation 5:9, etc.) The church is represented as the property of Christ and in some sense our redemption reflects our corporate redemption as God's people as well, much as He redeemed Israel. But who did God 'pay' the blood of Christ to? Not to Satan. Not to us. Not to any human. Rather, Christ shed his blood as our kinsman redeemer - the Jewish practice that a kinsman could pay the debt of another. The 'debt' was our guilt under the law and hence our bondage to sin.

We don't have to 'repay' that debt. God erased it. No one owes it to anyone anymore. The account is closed. But when we reject faith and return to the law? We no longer have basis to claim our sins 'covered' by Christ and will in fact be incurring new debts moment by moment. We no longer can claim the redemption of the King. We exit God's redeemed people. We return ourselves to being subject to the wrath of God. And such a person *does* pay their debt - at the judgement when they are cast into the Lake of Fire.
 
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Saint Steven

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Even Paul says "I count not myself to have apprehended"; it would be PRESUMPTION to say "I've done enough" but it's useless to say what is 'enough'
Not apprehended salvation? I don't think he was saying that.
Are you claiming that you aren't saved? That you are lost?
 
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Saint Steven

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Why, Saint Stephen, are you asking
"am i claiming that I am not save?"
I just posted earlier that I was saved at 19, and have continued to believe for 46 years.
Call me Steve.

You just said, "Even Paul says "I count not myself to have apprehended"; it would be PRESUMPTION to say "I've done enough" but it's useless to say what is 'enough'" Are you now PRESUMING to say you are saved? (fine by me)
 
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Saint Steven

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As far as what Paul meant that he didn't count himself to have apprehended - go ahead and give us your thoughts on that passage
He had not completed the work Christ have given him to do. The "prize" is at the end of the race. He was still in the race. He wasn't claiming that salvation was the prize at the end of the race.

Earlier in the chapter he said this.

Philippians 3:3
... we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
 
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Anto9us

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Phl 3:7
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Phl 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Phl 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Phl 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Phl 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Phl 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Phl 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Phl 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
 
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Anto9us

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These are Strong's notes on KATALAMBANO - the word translated 'apprehend/apprehended' in the passage:

The KJV translates Strong's G2638 in the following manner: take (3x), apprehend (3x), comprehend (2x), come upon (1x), attain (1x), find (1x), overtake (1x), obtain (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to lay hold of
    1. to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to, to make one's own, to take into one's self, appropriate

    2. to seize upon, take possession of
      1. of evils overtaking one, of the last day overtaking the wicked with destruction, of a demon about to torment one

      2. in a good sense, of Christ by his holy power and influence laying hold of the human mind and will, in order to prompt and govern it
    3. to detect, catch

    4. to lay hold of with the mind
      1. to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend
 
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Saint Steven

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Phl 3:7
Phl 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Phl 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
What have you done there?
Verse 8 ends with a comma and verse 9 begins with a capital "A". ?????

Let's review the whole sentence.
 
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