OSAS/Perseverance of saints & salvation without faith

[Rescued One]

Why would an omniscient God pay for something He knew He would later put in the trash???

John 10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Loren T.]

I see. So tell me...
How many times have you lost your salvation?

I have never denied or truly lost faith that Jesus is the one and only way. Have I doubted? Sure, many times. Would I like to believe I can never stop having faith in my God? Sure. I have been deeply involved with churches who taught OSAS, but never fully convinced, because I have to remain true to scripture, not to any mans teaching. People say you can never lose it and come back, but I've seen it happen. The only way Eternal security makes sense to me is under some form of determinism, which I also don't find to be biblical.

 

[Saint Steven]

I trust and have faith that I am. I see the work God is doing to steer me right when I wander off. He is teaching, guiding and correcting me.

Philippians 1:6

So, you can't say for certain?
If you were saved, on what basis would you be saved?

 

[Sam91]

@Saint Steven re post #83 By the precious gift of God's grace. Because of what Christ did on the cross. Because God gave me ears to hear and let me hear it. That He made me His child and because He sealed me with His spirit. Because He guides and teaches and strengthens my faith and carries me on wings like eagles through life's trials.

I never said that I'm not saved. I think it is presumptious to say that I have persevered yet before I have. I know 100% that I am redeemed and that nothing can tear me out of God's hand. I know that if I accidently vere off course the good Shepherd will bring me back. I know that He who started a good work in me will bring it to fruition.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thankfully Yahweh does not choose to see things the way you do.

Seriously?
You are speaking for Yahweh on a controversial subject?

I quoted the scripture for that.
Crossing over from death to life is a positional change. Is it not?
And how do you propose undoing what God has done?

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Anto9us]

Getting back to the "not blot his name out" references in Revelation, and aware that followers of the beast, while living, are portrayed as not having their names written in there at all -- who is the warning TO -- if not to someone who was saved and had their name written in already?

IN another thread on this same topic, I brought up the 'blotting out of Book of Life' verses in Revelation. There were no adequate answers from the side which thinks a believer can never 'unbecome' a believer, so I am going to re-hash it now.

Rev 3:4
Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

Rev 3:5
He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.



If one's name will not be BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life IF HE CONQUERS, then it must mean that it is possible to have one's name blotted out once it is already in the Book of Life.


I used to believe that everyone who was born had their name written in Book of Life, and if they died without accepting Christ, their name was blotted out.

I came to see it differently in time, that it may well be that names are written in the Book of Life when a person accepts Christ -- that suits better the "not blot his name out" passage -- and ties directly into the topic of this thread; that a person could make a decision and later walk away from it.


If only THE ELECT are written in the Book of Life, then there ya go, they can still be blotted out, according to Rev 3:5.

Here are verses which seem to be against the idea that EVERYONE is written in Book of Life from birth:

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


So my thinking is that one gets written in when they believe, and is subject to being blotted out from that point until their death -- of course, with God's foreknowledge, their belief and perseverance would be known by Him from foundation of the world anyway.

In any case, the two above verses indicate there are going to be people walking around whose names are NOT in there, never were in there - they are ones that worship the beast.


So now I submit to you -- there are WARNINGS about being blotted out -- and they necessarily MUST BE to saved people (because beast-followers are/were not written in at all).

The warnings about being blotted out are to SAVED PEOPLE -- as there are many other warnings about falling away, being broken off -- they apply to SAVED PEOPLE, BELIEVERS.

Someone said it was Preservation of the Saints - not Perseverence of the Saints - it's perseverence.

Do I believe in Perseverence of the Saints? It is not a doctrine, rather a phenomenon wherein a believer continues to believe til their death -- once they do that, they have Eternal Security for sure, but that is not a doctrine either.

No one can snatch a believer out of God's hand, but they can walk away. Instances of those fallen away and gone shipwreck, the card that is flipped out that says OH THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH is much too trite, just quick SplainAway sprayed on the whole matter.

The true doctrine is to pay attention to the warnings -- that they are given to real believers -- and realize that a believer might possibly walk away from his faith and not persevere. That is the biblical model. I don't understand how people cannot see that UNLESS they swallow an entire theology which includes as it's last and final point a DOCTRINE of once saved always saved. Then they cannot bear it if OSAS is not true, for if so their whole system would tumble, their false set of theological constructs collapses.

 

[Saint Steven]

@Saint Steven re post #83 By the precious gift of God's grace. Because of what Christ did on the cross. Because God gave me ears to hear and let me hear it. That He made me His child and because He sealed me with His spirit. Because He guides and teaches and strengthens my faith and carries me on wings like eagles through life's trials.

I never said that I'm not saved. I think it is presumptious to say that I have persevered yet before I have. I know 100% that I am redeemed and that nothing can tear me out of God's hand. I know that if I accidently vere off course the good Shepherd will bring me back. I know that He who started a good work in me will bring it to fruition.

Very good.
I read a lot more conviction in that response than the previous one. Good job.

 

[Saint Steven]

I have never denied or truly lost faith that Jesus is the one and only way. Have I doubted? Sure, many times. Would I like to believe I can never stop having faith in my God? Sure. I have been deeply involved with churches who taught OSAS, but never fully convinced, because I have to remain true to scripture, not to any mans teaching. People say you can never lose it and come back, but I've seen it happen. The only way Eternal security makes sense to me is under some form of determinism, which I also don't find to be biblical.

So, ultimately your salvation rests on your own efforts?

 

[Marvin Knox]

How is it one can be saved without faith:

Even though we are saved by grace - one cannot be saved except through faith (authored, by the way, by God Himself).

"Quite simply, one is saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. But once saved it is not necessary to maintain that faith in order to retain salvation. Faith is simply the means by which one takes hold of the free gift of salvation. But faith is not a channel through which salvation continually flows so that if the connection is broken salvation is cut off and lost. Once a person has believed in Christ he has been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. When a person receives Christ as Savior he is adopted into the family of God. He is entered into union with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He is sealed unto the day of redemption. He is kept by the power of God. Once a person has received Jesus as Savior he is eternally secure even if he loses his faith afterwards."

I wonder if all those who believe in "eternal security" (or OSAS or "Perseverance of the saints") hold to such a view."

Most all of us do.

We, unlike anti-OSAS people, do not believe that new born sons of God are seated with Christ in the Heavenlies initially and ruling according to our faith in the Kingdom of God, as the scriptures teach ------ only to be cast down off the throne occasionally and raised back up occasionally according to just how well we happen to be doing at the time with that whole "working out our salvation with fear and trembling knowing that it is Christ who works in us to will and to do His good pleasure" thingy.

That seem ridiculously unscriptural to me as it should to anyone with the Spirit of God leading them into all truth.

 

[Anto9us]

"Quite simply, one is saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. But once saved it is not necessary to maintain that faith in order to retain salvation. Faith is simply the means by which one takes hold of the free gift of salvation. But faith is not a channel through which salvation continually flows so that if the connection is broken salvation is cut off and lost.

Not necessary to maintain that faith?
Just walk down the aisle once and then forget about it all, live like you want, and you still retain salvation?

And faith IS a channel through which salvation continually flows -- that is the exact image of a wild olive branch grafted into the tree -- it needs to abide in the root and live off its sap - continually.

A warning about the natural branches being broken off in the past is presented as a warning to current wild olive branches possibly being broken off in the future -- don't be broken off -- abide in the root, draw life from it, it's an ongoing thing.

 

[Anto9us]

Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Root, fatness, sap, -- wild olive branches partake of the root, and now STANDEST BY FAITH.

The Faith, then , is an ON-GOING belief - and the warning is to take heed.

 

[Anto9us]

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sing-salvation-also-be-a-free-choice.8071056/

That thread is in General Theology, rather than here in Controversial sub forum -- it is 29 pages of posts and still going -- basically the same topic.

 

[Eloy Craft]

People try to make visible the judgment God has not made visible. Do we know who is in eternal sin? Eternal conditions don't submit to observation, if they did God's judgment wouldn't be hidden. We wouldn't need faith because we could see.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Not necessary to maintain that faith?

That appears to be a question. Are you asking if it is necessary to maintain faith? Of course it is necessary for many things in the salvation process.

Necessary for what? If the question pertains to "finishing" the good work the Lord began in us, than the answer is no. That's His job and His promise to us that He will complete the job HE began by grace through faith.

Just walk down the aisle once and then forget about it all, live like you want, and you still retain salvation?

I don't know anyone who advocates "just walking down an isle and forgetting about it". Do you?

But if a person was truly saved and forgot about it - the answer to your question is yes.

And faith IS a channel through which salvation continually flows --

Of course it is. No one I know of teaches otherwise.

Do you think "salvation" is presented in the scriptures as simply escaping Hell and getting to Heaven eventually?

....that is the exact image of a wild olive branch grafted into the tree -- it needs to abide in the vine - continually.....A warning about the natural branches being broken off in the past is presented as a warning to current wild olive branches possibly being broken off in the future -- don't be broken off -- abide in the vine, it's an ongoing thing.

Are you referring to the Romans 11 teaching concerning gentile salvation in light of the basic tree being Israel?

If so - your reference to it here is out of context.

 

[Anto9us]

Moving from olives to grapes -- that is the VINE reference -- both fruits are used in the Bible to show a continual abiding:


Jhn 15:1
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Jhn 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jhn 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jhn 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[Loren T.]

So, ultimately your salvation rests on your own efforts?

Just the opposite. Faith is the opposite of work. My salvation depends on my continued dependence on Christ Alone. As soon as I depend on my own efforts I'm going in the wrong direction.

 

[Saint Steven]

Just the opposite. Faith is the opposite of work. My salvation depends on my continued dependence on Christ Alone. As soon as I depend on my own efforts I'm going in the wrong direction.

So, does that mean that you are depending on God to do the works through you that will result in your salvation?

 

[Anto9us]

Yes, Marvin - I was referring to Romans 11, to show a continual abiding in the good tree by the wild olive branch grafted in. That the main context of the passage is old Israel and Gentile believers doesn't make its words irrelevant to me -- I AM a wild olive branch grafted in.

Original audience of scriptures of course should be looked at, but not to the point of saying, for instance -- "That warning was to first century church of Sardis -- I need not pay attention to it"

Revelation's original 'audience' was seven churches in Asia Minor long ago, yet it seems to speak of things that have not happenned even now.

Oh, the 'walk down the aisle and forget about it' was just to make a point, I too know of no one who believes like that.

 

[Anto9us]

Jhn 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Rom 11:18
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Of course it is not our own works upon which salvation depends

 

[Loren T.]

So, does that mean that you are depending on God to do the works through you that will result in your salvation?

What part of faith is not a work don't you understand? Yeah God does all the work of salvation, only if I choose not to resist him.