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OSAS/Perseverance of saints & salvation without faith

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Jul 18, 2018.

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  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To you who believe in OSAS or "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints". Which of you hold to a perspective that a believer will still be saved even if he loses faith?

    I ask that because of this guy who believes in either OSAS, "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints":

    "How is it one can be saved without faith:

    Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

    Jn.3:36 he who is believing in the Son, hath life eonian; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.

    Col.1:22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23 if indeed you continue in your faith,...."


    "I've never heard that one before. [Though i think i'd stick with Heb.11:6 & Jn.3:36 as quoted before.] I wonder if all those who believe in "eternal security" (or OSAS or "Perseverance of the saints") hold to such a view."

    "If i understand your viewpoint, it is that 1 Tim.1:19-20 refers to believers who lost their faith but are still saved while in unbelief. The same passage refers to such being given over to Satan for correction. The only other passage referring to such a giving over to Satan for correction is 1 Cor.5:4-5. But there its purpose is to bring a so-called "brother", who was "wicked" (vs.11-13) to salvation (v.5). He wasn't saved & was receiving the same exact discipline prescribed by Paul as those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 (those who you interpret to be saved while in unbelief & having thown away a good conscience, i.e. living in sin, just as the one referred to in 1 Cor.5:4-5. If anything those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 appear worse than he of 1 Cor.5:4-5, yet you're saying the worse is saved while the better of the two needs salvation. Likewise those of Heb.6 & 10 seem worse than the guy who needs salvation in 1 Cor.5:4-5)."
     
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  2. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    If we deny Him, He will deny us!


    Matthew 10:33

    “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
     
  3. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    2 Timothy 2:12

    “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:”
     
  4. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    Titus 1:16

    “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.”
     
  5. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    The OSAS camp tend to say that the person wasn't really saved or he wouldn't have fallen away. They quote Romans 8:38-39

    This to me is unbiblical from the way I read the Bible as a whole.
     
  6. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    There are really two things in focus when discussing this topic, one of which is almost always not considered by those who claim a loss of salvation. One of these is salvation itself and it is known as a recreation, or purchasing by Another, and a sealing until the day we are redeemed, which bodily hasn't happened yet, which implies the sealing persists. The other deals with the loss of reward or standing, which is where we see things in the parables where people are assigned a portion or reward of the unbelievers, which means they get nothing in the end, and Paul describes the condition as those who will have everything burned up, but they themselves will be saved. I do notice a lot of crossover between these two areas by those want to hang on to salvation loss, by mixing the two areas when it suits their need.

    However, I have never seen the verses which show another recreation of us by God for those who 'walk away'. It's put across as some as act we do, but it would require a simultaneous act by God as well to recreate us back to our former selves. I've also never seen the verses that show since God purchased us and we no longer belong to ourselves, how we can successfully purchase ourselves back from God to give us the right and ability to walk away, and what price would be acceptable to Him that would supersede the blood of Jesus, or the verses that show how to undo a sealing by the Spirit in 3 easy steps.

    There's just too many holes in that whole 'loss of salvation' theory.
     
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  7. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Not really. Bible tells you.

    Revelation 2-3 Jesus actually tells the Churches what to do to prevent them from falling away.

    Why are there warnings and admonitions if it can't happen and isn't a real danger?

    Does that mean OSAS people just ignore many, many verses?

    Do they think they are for someone who isn't saved? We all know works do not justify. So they must be directed to those who are in Him, so that they will remain in Him.
     
  8. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't mean ignoring anything, but rather understanding them differently when realizing multiple aspects are in play, not just salvation.

    If you wish to show me the verses that describe the steps to be unsealed, or talking God into recreating us again back into a fallen state, or even what price God will accept for us to purchase ourselves from Him, feel free to do so. I haven't found them.
     
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  9. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Me , I can't go to hell even if I tried .


    1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
     
  10. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Thy will Lord Supporter

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    I think God’s justice in eternity is a very real thing too. And I also couldn't go to hell even if I tried either. I have far too many people telling me where to go. God the Father has one offer to those who believe and that is eternal life. God the Son otoh is Him to Whom the rewards are His to give. Christ is that aspect of Hebrews that speaks of the belief in God as One Who rewards and to which belief is essential. The rewards are given on the day of the Lord and only those believers who have overcome the world, satan and self will be recipients qualified to participate in His pre-eternal reign. And of those qualified not all will be safe from having to face the opportunity to side against God again. Of those many that are called, few are indeed the chosen. They will be the ones wearing their crowns for eternity. At this point I imagine it like looking at the coat of many colours the Mighty Father has made for His favoured children, all the colours of the many rewards available.Those not favoured in this way will be raised for eternity as their reward for belief but will wear God’s displeasure for eternity. Rewards have been given as the incentive, the prize for endurance. Yet only those things that have been wrought thru Him will in fact endure to the end.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  11. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    As I have heard it said, it's more accurately "preservation of the saints", not "perseverance" (as though it is by our own effort and striving we are ultimately saved.)

    Yes, there are indeed verses, when selectively quoted and isolated, can seem to suggest a possible loss of salvation. This is why we must look at the entire context and the full counsel of God on the matter.

    1 John 1:
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


    Many will try to argue that you cannot live "in sin" and still be saved. The truth is that we all sin in the "flesh" each and every single day. This is why Scripture tells us we can come "boldly before the throne of Grace", and that we are to remember Jesus "everliveth" to make intercession for us as He is our Mediator and Great High Priest.

    We have been bought with the precious blood of Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, when He who began this "good work" in us will bring it to completion. He has not failed and will never fail.
     
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  12. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Thank you for your politeness :) I appreciate that.

    Romans 1:21-25 To me it says that they knew God. Changed the truth to a lie served other things.

    Romans 1:26-27
    God gave them over to their desires and lusts. They recieved the consequences.

    Romans 1:28-31
    Since they didn't consider it worthwhile to RETAIN the knowledge He gave them over to a depraved mind.

    Romans 11:21 Paul is talking to the Gentiles warning them not to boast over being grafted in to the Jews saying that He will not spare them either.

    1 Corinthians 6:4-9 Not so convinced by this one but leaving it here because understanding how people interprete these differently will help me to at least pray for wisdom with these. I admit that I'll intend to hold fast to what I believe seeing as I've read prayerfully over the years but I'm fully prepared to not lean on my own understanding and trust in Him to put me on the right path. This issue has been on the shelf for a while now.

    1 Corinthians 10:11-12

    1 Corinthians 15:33-34
    1 Corinthians 15:56-58
    1 Corinthians 16:24

    I haven't gotten to the most poignant verses yet.
    Like Hebrews, 1 John Revelation 2 -3
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  13. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Your question shows that you don't know what the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints means. You've set up a strawman argument, a hypothetical situation that doesn't happen. It's like asking "What if God is a liar?".

    1John 2:19
    They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
    For if they had belonged to us,
    (ONCE SAVED)
    they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
    but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

    Apply that the 1Tim 1:19-20
     
  14. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    So the Revelation verses.
    Revelation 2:2-7 Ephesus. There deeds, perseverance, not tolerating wicked men and enduring hardship for Him and not growing weary were commended.

    They had thrown off their first love. They were told to remember and repent of He would remove their lampstand from its place. Then to those who overcome they will have the right to eat from the tree of life.

    Revelation 2:10 Smyrna. Be faithful EVEN to the point of death and He will give them the crown of life.

    Revelation 2:25-26 Revelation 2:15-16

    Revelation 3:2-3
    Sardis. They are dead. Told to strengthen what remains. Verse 5 says that to those who overcome He will not blot out from the book of life. Which means, to me, that one can be blotted out.

    Revelation 3:14-21 They are lukewarm, about to get spat out. They are confident and assured of there salvation not seeing the true state of affairs. This worries me about those who hear that they can't lose their salvation. It might just prevent them from following verse18!

    2 Peter 1:3-10

    2 Peter 2:20-21

    2 Peter 3:11-17 Especially 2 Peter 3:11:17

    1 John 3:7
    1 John 5:16-17

    Hebrews 6:4-6
    Hebrews 2:1
    Hebrews 3:12 Part of the process of falling away.
    Hebrews 3:14-15 We only come to share if we hold on until the end with the confidence we had at first.
    Hebrews 6:11-12
    Hebrews 10:25-27
    Hebrews 10:32-35

    These are just a selection. I have more from the gospels in my mind and from other epistles, even one of the psalms says about people being blotted from the book of life.

    But this is what I do believe. I believe that I am Christs, purchased by His blood. I believe Romans 8:28 is true. I believe nothing can separate me from the love of God. Except myself. I could separate myself from Him (maybe not His love but from Him) by ways mention in the verses I had quoted. I could live by willfully sinning, not repenting, serving the flesh. My heart could be hardened. After that still not seeking Him until the point of disbelief.

    I also see the verses about God's patience but ultimately by rejecting Him I would be cut off like the branches.

    However, like Paul and Peter say I am fairly sure of better things than that as long as I obey our saviour Christ Jesus by holding fast to what He has done, given and stay faithful. Proverbs 3:5-6
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  15. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Romans 1 references the unrighteous who suppress the truth. They see God in His creation but do not acknowledge Him. They are called faithless and haters of God, but verse 17 tells us the righteous live by faith. There's a clear separation of groups here.

    Romans 11 is describing the dealings between God and people groups, not individual salvation. Different topic.

    The 1 Corinthian passages you cite seem to have one thing in common, refraining from sin. There is an inheritance that depends on works. Your quote of chapter 6 even references it. This is a good example of what I mean when I speak of multiple aspects in play, salvation and reward/inheritance. Failure to identify the difference would lead one to think any reference to loss must mean salvation but we are told there will be those who lose their reward and yet will be saved.

    1Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
     
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  16. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Thank you again for your curteousness and for your patience.

    But how can Romans 1 be referring to someone who hadn't been made righteous at one point. Because the wicked can not appreciate goodness. They are filled with hatred because imagine God shining His light on there true selves. Surely to know God they need to have once had more understanding?

    I understand Romans 11as a whole. But I do think that is a warning to the branches grafted in that they could just as easily be took out again. It is what it says.

    Thank you for the time taken to respond to those. I will give it some thought and prayer. It is always easier to agree with someone who thinks the same, so I'll bear in mind my own dreaded pride in my opinions.

    I agree about the rewards inHeaven. I will keep that in mind too while reading in future.
     
  17. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    @Sam91 : I always think that Romans 8.38-39 is an excellent expression of what is sometimes known as the perseverance of the saints. :)
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    A believer can lose his faith due to being influenced by false teachings such as is stated in 1 Timothy where some are said to have ''suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith'' (1 Tim. 1:19), but he cannot lose his salvation.

    False teachings such as God does not complete a work He starts? (Philippians 1:6)
    That would be a serious sign of doubt in the Sovereign works of God.


    ...Once saved, it is possible for a believer to renounce his faith for one reason or another, but doing so does not mean that he loses his salvation.

    Kind of need to know what "for one reason or another" means.

    I say that because....

    Matthew 13: NASB
    3And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6“But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7“Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8“And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9“He who has ears, let him hear.”

    Four 'soils' above and only one represents saving faith which produces crop.
     
  19. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Great verse there from Philippians 1: so assuring that in grace God completes the work He starts. :)
     
  20. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    I'm working right now., but I'll try to get back to this post when I can spend some time on it. Thanks.
     
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