OSAS is biblical, "Perseverance of the Saints" is not.

[Cockcrow]

Once Saved always saved is not calvinist doctrine, yet many falsely accuse OSAS believers of being calvinist. Calvinism teaches "Perseverance of the saints" which means that those who are truly saved will work until the end. Romans 4:5 debunks that false doctrine. OSAS believes that Whosever believeth in Jesus is saved, and can't be plucked from Jesus or the Father's hand no matter what they do because salvation is not works based but based on faith in Lord Jesus.

I can't tell you the amount of false prophets I have seen teaching that Once Saved Always Saved is some made up doctrine created by John Calvin in the 1600's, when that is a complete and total lie. Calvinists think that you must work until the end to earn or prove you are saved, the Calvinist/reformed camp claim to believe in faith alone yet they then will falsely will say "true faith is never alone" or "we are not saved by works but those who are truly saved will have the works" it is double talk works salvation nonsense, either it is by faith alone or it is not. you can't have both and you can't backload works into salvation. OSAS truly is faith alone, and truly is believing in Christ totally for our salvation, and nothing we do earns it.

OSAS = Biblical (read Gospel of John, Romans, Galatians, Titus 3, pretty much all of Pauls writings) it is everywhere in the NT, and even in the OT Abraham believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. whoever believes in Christ is saved, it's by faith, the Just live by faith, we are Abrahams seed by faith in Jesus, children of God by faith in the Jesus, not of works, Jesus paid it all and died, was buried, bodily rose again, and whosoever believeth in him is saved and has eternal life.

Some people also confuse the Calvinist teaching of "Perseverance of the Saints" as meaning that God preserves the saved until the end which is not what "Perseverance of the Saints" is, but many are confused. it is not Preservation of the Saints, it is perseverance. Big difference. Of Course God is the one who preserves us, that is not what the P in TUILP stands for however, but I talk to and see so many confused and think that is what the P in tulip stands for.

The Amount of people I see deceived on this topic by so many calvinist false teachers, and then false demon prophets who who lump OSAS into being a calvinist doctrine when it is not, look God is not the Author of confusion, this "Perseverance of the Saints" doctrine is demonic, and unbiblical. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

the definition of Perseverance = difficult, hard work. now is salvation hard? or easy? well the Bible clearly teaches that it is easy to be saved, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, Romans 10:9-10, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Ephesians 2:8-9 Acts 16:30-31

Salvation is whosoever believeth in him, whosoever will let him take the water of life freely, we are justified freely by his grace. the will of the Father is to believe on the Son (John 6:40) not "whosoever perseveres until the end will be saved" There are countless examples in the Bible of saved believers in Christ falling into sin, even dying in a state of sin or committing suicide, yet they were saved because they believed in Christ. How one dies has no bearing on whether they were saved or not. And if you think about it, if OSAS were not true then that would mean that our works have something to do with salvation, or staying saved. which is false doctrine and contradicts clear Bible verses. Our works do not justify us before God. I'm going off on a rant here there is much more I can say about this.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Actually Perseverance of the saints and OSAS aka Eternal Security are all the same thing and are just different words for the same teaching. John Calvin did not come up with the idea Augustine did over a thousand years before Calvin was born (Well actually it was the prophets but Augustine was the first theologian to correctly interpret the words of the Prophets). It's the teaching that God keeps a child of God in the faith until the end meaning that God keeps the salvation of all of his children. Romans 4:5 does not "prove" that God doesn't keep a child in faith until the end. It's yet another proof text that our works don't save us but that we are saved by faith alone in christ alone to the glory of God alone.

OSAS IS A Biblical doctrine and is taught all throughout the scriptures including in the Old Testament. The prophets taught OSAS, so if you want to figure out who came up with the doctrine, blame the prophets.

 

[Cockcrow]

Actually Perseverance of the saints and OSAS aka Eternal Security are all the same thing and are just different words for the same teaching. John Calvin did not come up with the idea Augustine did over a thousand years before Calvin was born (Well actually it was the prophets but Augustine was the first theologian to correctly interpret the words of the Prophets). It's the teaching that God keeps a child of God in the faith until the end meaning that God keeps the salvation of all of his children. Romans 4:5 does not "prove" that God doesn't keep a child in faith until the end. It's yet another proof text that our works don't save us but that we are saved by faith alone in christ alone to the glory of God alone.

OSAS IS A Biblical doctrine and is taught all throughout the scriptures including in the Old Testament. The prophets taught OSAS, so if you want to figure out who came up with the doctrine, blame the prophets.

that is false. Persevering until the end (aka worse salvation) is not the same as OSAS eternal security, that is just false. Persevere means it is difficult work until the end to attain eternal life, but salvation is not difficult at all, it is easy, the Bible clearly teaches this. it does not teach Persevere until the end to have eternal life

 

[Cockcrow]

also I don't care if Augustine who lived 1000+ years ago believed in eternal security or not, the Bible teaches eternal security, I don't base my biblical views on what a man says or teaches, I base it on what the scripture which is inspired by the Holy Ghost says. John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, "I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” If Augustine believed that good, if he didn't then that is fine as well, what does the Bible say is what I believe. And the so called reformers that came thousands of years after the Bible was written claiming to believe in faith alone while they backloaded works into salvation, claiming to be against the Catholic Church yet retained pretty much all of their false teachings is meaningless to me, the Bible says it is not by works, I don't care what Luther, Calvin, or any other false prophet says I care what Jesus said. they didn't teach faith alone so they didn't believe Jesus and what they said is completely irrelevant.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Where did you get from that Calvinists teach that believers will "work till the end"? Calvinists don't believe in works-based salvation at all.

 

[Der Alte]

Hebrews 10:26-31
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Why is the writer of Hebrews telling born again Christians, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God?"
The writer is not talking about someone who only heard the gospel but people who have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant, vs. 29. If they tread underfoot the Son of God and treat the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified as an unholy thing they are due much worse punishment than OT Jews who despised Moses' law who died without mercy.

 

[Cockcrow]

Hebrews 10:26-31​

(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.​

(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:​

(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.​

(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Why is the writer of Hebrews telling born again Christians, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God?"
The writer is not talking about someone who only heard the gospel but people who have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant, vs. 29. If they tread underfoot the Son of God and treat the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified as an unholy thing they are due much worse punishment than OT Jews who despised Moses' law who died without mercy.

Hebrews 10 is not talking about losing your salvation, it is talking about those who were enlightened (knew the gospel) yet rejected it, there is no more sacrifice for sins, they willfully rejected the truth. Being enlightened doesn't = saved and then losing it by sinning. salvation cannot be lost. If salvation can be lost by willful sin then nobody is saved. all of the Apostles still sinned after they were saved, yet they still preached to be holy. Read Romans 7 Apostle Paul still struggled, we must die daily,

Galatians 5:16-17 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

if being holy came automatically with salvation then there wouldn't need to be so many warning passages in scripture about the consequences of sinning after our salvation.

 

[Neostarwcc]

also I don't care if Augustine who lived 1000+ years ago believed in eternal security or not, the Bible teaches eternal security, I don't base my biblical views on what a man says or teaches, I base it on what the scripture which is inspired by the Holy Ghost says. John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, "I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” If Augustine believed that good, if he didn't then that is fine as well, what does the Bible say is what I believe. And the so called reformers that came thousands of years after the Bible was written claiming to believe in faith alone while they backloaded works into salvation, claiming to be against the Catholic Church yet retained pretty much all of their false teachings is meaningless to me, the Bible says it is not by works, I don't care what Luther, Calvin, or any other false prophet says I care what Jesus said. they didn't teach faith alone so they didn't believe Jesus and what they said is completely irrelevant.

I thought you would care about the prophets and Augustine because you stated that you were sick of people saying OSAS came from John Calvin. Thought you would be interested in knowing that wasn't the case. Guess not. As for the reformers teaching works based salvation where did you get that from? Somewhere out of thin air I suppose because the reformers were AGAINST works based salvation as is the Bible.

 

[Cockcrow]

I thought you would care about the prophets and Augustine because you stated that you were sick of people saying OSAS came from John Calvin. Thought you would be interested in knowing that wasn't the case. Guess not. As for the reformers teaching works based salvation where did you get that from? Somewhere out of thin air I suppose because the reformers were AGAINST works based salvation.

I said that I am sick of people lying by saying that John Calvin invented OSAS, when he actually taught Perseverance of the Saints which is completely different and false.

 

[Cockcrow]

The reformers like so many today said that they were against works salvation and for faith alone, yet they still taught that the truly saved will have the works, or show evidence that they are saved, and persevere until the end. which is backloading works into salvation. we are either saved by our works or we are not, you can't say "we are not saved by works but the saved will have the works" or "faith alone but true faith is never alone" like the reformers did, that is called backloading works into salvation and that makes no logical sense, and is not biblical. So what they essentially did was teach a corrupted form of faith alone that isn't actually faith alone, and doesn't save anybody.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I said that I am sick of people lying by saying that John Calvin invented OSAS, when he actually taught Perseverance of the Saints which is completely different.

Thank you for ignoring my questions and stating things we already talked about. Perseverance of the Saints is the exact same thing as OSAS/Eternal Security it just has a different name. All three teachings teach that God will keep a believer in the faith until the end hence they are always saved. All three are in perfect harmony with scripture. Before you go and try to attack the reformers I would suggest you actually read up on what the Reformers actually believed in taught. Otherwise you sound uneducated and foolish.

 

[Neostarwcc]

The reformers like so many today said that they were against works salvation and for faith alone, yet they still taught that the truly saved will have the works, or show evidence that they are saved, and persevere until the end. which is backloading works into salvation. we are either saved by our works or we are not, you can't say "we are not saved by works but the saved will have the works" like the reformers did, that is called backloading works into salvation and that makes no logical sense, and is not biblical.

That wasn't the reformers that taught that that was James and Peter and it is also commonly taught in Arminianism as well. Are you saying Arminians also believe in works based salvation? Also we persevere until the end because God keeps us in the faith it is not in any way, shape, or form a work on our part. If it were left up to us we would all fall away and Jesus was nothing but a liar. Also a common teaching in Protestantism.

 

[Der Alte]

Hebrews 10 is not talking about losing your salvation, it is talking about those who were enlightened (knew the gospel) yet rejected it, there is no more sacrifice for sins, they willfully rejected the truth. Being enlightened doesn't = saved and then losing it by sinning. salvation cannot be lost.

Nope! You didn't read the entire passage.

(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

This person is not someone who only heard or knew the gospel but someone who, "has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

 

[Cockcrow]

Thank you for ignoring my questions and stating things we already talked about. Perseverance of the Saints is the exact same thing as OSAS/Eternal Security it just has a different name. All three teachings teach that God will keep a believer in the faith until the end hence they are always saved. All three are in perfect harmony with scripture. Before you go and try to attack the reformers I would suggest you actually read up on what the Reformers actually believed in taught. Otherwise you sound uneducated and foolish.

how can working until the end to be saved be the same thing as once saved always saved? it isn't, they are completely separate beliefs. God keeping us until the end is not the same as us actively persevering until the end to earn salvation. The reformers were Catholic Priests who disagreed about indulgences and split off from the Catholic Church, yet they kept virtually all the same teachings on The Eucharist, Pope worship, the sacraments, Mary worship. The 95 Theisis that supposedly started the split and was so anti-Catholic actually is very pro catholic in fact part of it sates "For it is clear that the pope's power is of itself sufficient for the remission of penalties and cases reserved by himself." it is false doctrine.

 

[Cockcrow]

Nope! You didn't read the entire passage.

(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:​

(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

This person is not someone who only heard or knew the gospel but someone who, "has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

The Holy Spirit can work in unbelievers as well, in fact the Holy Spirit spoke through Caiaphas whose was unsaved. The Holy Spirit can be there working with someone who is unsaved and then they reject it and refuse to believe the gospel and get saved, God gives these people up, they lose their chance at salvation. it isn't talking about someone who is saved and believes in Christ losing their salvation due to willful sin. if we lost our salvation every time we committed a willful sin then nobody is saved.

 

[Der Alte]

The Holy Spirit can work in unbelievers as well, in fact the Holy Spirit spoke through Caiaphas whose was unsaved. The Holy Spirit can be there working with someone who is unsaved and then they reject it and refuse to believe the gospel and get saved, God gives these people up, they lose their chance at salvation. it isn't talking about someone who is saved and believes in Christ losing their salvation due to willful sin. if we lost our salvation every time we committed a willful sin then nobody is saved.

I have quoted only scripture twice. I haven't added anything or taken anything out. If you don't like what scripture clearly says go talk to Jesus. I'm done.

 

[Neostarwcc]

how can working until the end to be saved be the same thing as once saved always saved? it isn't, they are completely separate beliefs. God keeping us until the end is not the same as us actively persevering until the end to earn salvation. The reformers were Catholic Priests who disagreed about indulgences and split off from the Catholic Church, yet they kept virtually all the same teachings on The Eucharist, Pope worship, the sacraments, Mary worship. The 95 Theisis that supposedly started the split and was so anti-Catholic actually is very pro catholic in fact part of it sates "For it is clear that the pope's power is of itself sufficient for the remission of penalties and cases reserved by himself." it is false doctrine.

Because you don't work until the end to be saved it's that simple. Perseverance is NOT a work. We don't have to work to be saved, works are things that God does through us. Keep thinking that it is though if it makes you feel better I'm done arguing though because it doesn't matter what I say it will never get through your head. You'll just keep cherry picking the verses that you like in the Bible and ignoring the rest of them. I know you don't believe the Bible because you had no interest in hearing about the Prophets or the Apostles. The Prophets and Apostles spoke the very words of God and are just as much scripture as your love of Cherry Picking verses.

 

[Cockcrow]

I have quoted only scripture twice. I haven't added anything or taken anything out. If you don't like what scripture clearly says go talk to Jesus. I'm done.

if you think that when the Bible says "received the knowledge of the truth" means that is talking about someone who is saved that Jesus died on the cross for losing their salvation due to willful sin, then that is a wrong interpretation of that scripture, not what the Bible or Jesus teaches at all whatsoever. There is none that doeth good, no, not one. For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. If we have to be without sin to be saved then nobody is saved, none of the Apostles were saved then because they all still struggled with sin, Paul said he was Carnal sold under sin in Romans 7. The entire NT is warning believers to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, when we are saved our spirit is born again and is perfect without sin going to heaven, but while on Earth we still have the flesh, the old man, the flesh doesn't automatically become sinlessly perfect at salvation, otherwise why would there be a need to warn saved believers over committing sins, if it were not possible for a saved person to commit sin? Just get saved and then we are automatically sinless with no willful sin or temptations to sin anymore? That is impossible and not what the scripture teaches at all. and if you're saying that we must stop all sin or there is some type of sin that we must give up in order for Jesus to save us, then that is just not accurate false doctrine that saves nobody.

 

[Cockcrow]

It is talking about saved people, not saying losing your salvation, it is talking about being punished by God in this world. over and over the Bible warns us of sinning and the consequences of sin. God is not mocked, you reap what you sow, not losing your salvation

 

[Cockcrow]

Matthew 21:46 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.