OSAS #1: Can sinners enter Heaven?

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Ben johnson

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There are three separate and distinct views of "Once Saved Always Saved".

1. Antinomianism, a view that salvation is relationship but not necessarily fellowship with God. One can be actively fornicating, or drunk/carousing, or robbing, perhaps even murdering; but if he believes in Christ, his sins are covered, and He'll receive eternal life.

2. Calvinism/Reformed-Theology, view that God sovereignly chooses who will be saved (and monergistically regenerates their hearts, so that their wills then turn towards saving-faith)...

3. Eternal Security --- view that atonement is unlimited (differs from Calvinism which asserts "limited atonement"), but once "IN", either a person's heart is too changed TO believe, or God dynamically interferes to PREVENT real apostasy.


So --- with respect to #1, can a person who is actively practicing sin, expect to enter Heaven?

Let's start by listing verses thought to support:
1Corinthians 3:11-15: "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood hay or straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Romans 8:10: “For if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

John6:47, "Truly I say to you, he who believes has eternal life".

Acts 16:31, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household".


Any other verses that seem to assert "righteousness or salvation, without forsaking practicing-sin"?
 

Van

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I do not believe any verse supports the salvation of someone who "practices" lawlessness. However Colossians 1:13-14 says For He delivered us (which refers to our salvation) from the domain of darkness (which refers to our unregenerate state "in Adam")and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son (God puts us "in Christ" into the kingdom, we do not put ourselves in) in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. So while "in Christ" even if we sin in the future, they are forgiven because we are "in Christ" covered so to speak by His blood. Our High Priest has sat down, He does not need to re-sprinkle us each time we sin. We are justified in Christ, so when we sin it is just as if we did not sin.

In Christ we are known by Christ, John 10:14, but those who practice lawlessness, Christ never knew. The only conclusion that seem warranted is to say when God credits our faith as righteousness, it is a faith from which faithful service flows, the practice of righteousness.

In sum, if a person "practices lawlessness" they are not known by Christ, not born again believers in Christ, they have never been transferred out of the domain of darkness.
 
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savedbygrace57

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do not believe any verse supports the salvation of someone who "practices" lawlessness. However Colossians 1:13-14 says For He delivered us (which refers to our salvation) from the domain of darkness (which refers to our unregenerate state "in Adam"

This refers to the elect, col 1:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins

It is these , who have been redeemed by the blood of christ and have had their sins forgiven , these are in the kingdom of christ spiritually, and it is to these that the gospel is preached to..

Thats why its called the gospel of the kingdom matt 24:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

acts 28:

31Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

acts 20:

And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

This gospel is a message to only a chosen people ..and they have by christ death , have been translated into his kingdom..

matt 13:

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you[ the elect] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them[ non elect] it is not given.
 
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frumanchu

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2. Calvinism/Reformed-Theology, view that God sovereignly chooses who will be saved (and monergistically regenerates their hearts, so that their wills then turn towards saving-faith)...

Not that it matters to you, but this statement doesn't even address the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance. What you wrote would be a grossly inadequate summary of the Reformed doctrine of Irrisistible (or Efficacious) Grace.

Pretty easy to dismiss a position when you don't even present it in the first place. :thumbsup:

Carry on....
 
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Ben johnson

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RepDaddy said:
These classifications are poorly stated making the discussion pointless.
Then please correct me on the "classifications". But if you don't mind, PM your ideas to me on #2 and #3.

Please post verses in support of "practicing-sin-but-saved" here.

:)
 
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AndOne

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There are three separate and distinct views of "Once Saved Always Saved".

1. Antinomianism, a view that salvation is relationship but not necessarily fellowship with God. One can be actively fornicating, or drunk/carousing, or robbing, perhaps even murdering; but if he believes in Christ, his sins are covered, and He'll receive eternal life.

2. Calvinism/Reformed-Theology, view that God sovereignly chooses who will be saved (and monergistically regenerates their hearts, so that their wills then turn towards saving-faith)...

3. Eternal Security --- view that atonement is unlimited (differs from Calvinism which asserts "limited atonement"), but once "IN", either a person's heart is too changed TO believe, or God dynamically interferes to PREVENT real apostasy.


So --- with respect to #1, can a person who is actively practicing sin, expect to enter Heaven?

Let's start by listing verses thought to support:
1Corinthians 3:11-15: "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood hay or straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Romans 8:10: “For if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

John6:47, "Truly I say to you, he who believes has eternal life".

Acts 16:31, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household".

Any other verses that seem to assert "righteousness or salvation, without forsaking practicing-sin"?

Actually - I think your classifications of all aren't quite on the mark. Since we're on Antinomianism - I'll stick with that for now.

Your definition of Antinonianism is wrong in that these folks believe it is possible to be in fellowship with God and involved in blatant sin at the same time. Fornication is usually the sin of choice - for example the original Antinonianists believed in practicing worship by having orgies and illicit sex.

I know its all schematics here - but I think its important to point out where you are flawed right of the gate - so that when we hit Calvinism it will be apparant that perhaps you have a bit more research to do in defining the terms acurately.
 
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Van

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How does on define "practicing sin or lawlessness?" First, lets assume sin and lawlessness mean pretty much the same thing. And sin is doing or contemplating doing something other than the will of God, hence to miss the mark, with the mark meaning to live in accordance with the will of God. If we strive to do that, even though we stumble, we are still practicing righteousness. And on the other hand, if we are not striving to living in accordance with the will of God, we are practicing lawlessness, practicing sin.

Now there are at least three kinds of sin, first doing or contemplating doing something that is against the will of God, without knowing it is against the will of God. This is still sin, and the wages of this sin is still death. Next, we do something or contemplate doing something that violates our understanding of God's will. This the the sin of transgression. Adam transgressed the known will of God for God had expressed the penalty for eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. When we sin in this manner, we sin in the manner of Adam. And finally, we sin when we know we should do something in accord with the will of God, and we do not do it. This is also sin.
And all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

So the Law makes us aware of our sin, and when we (before we were born again) go against the known will of God, that adds to the sin, and adds to the penalty.
 
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moonbeam

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Did you sin yesterday Ben? [be honest now]...are you practicing sin Ben?

Did you sin today Ben? [be honest now]...are you practicing sin Ben?

Will you sin tommorow Ben? [be honest now]...that would be three days running...are you practicing sin Ben?

Are you practicing sin Ben? [be honest now]
 
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frumanchu

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but I believe if we are striving to follow God's will, and we stumble, that is not "practicing sin." That is practicing righteousness imperfectly.

I agree, Van. The problem is that Ben's doctrines are necessarily evasive on this point because he wants emphatically to say you can lose your salvation but doesn't dare draw the line you have to cross to do so.

He will frequently cite verses like Heb 10:26 ("For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" - NASB), but of course it can't be applied to the fact that in some sense ALL Christians go on sinning because our sanctification is an ongoing process not completed until our glorification in Heaven.

He rejects the notion that with our justification comes the forgiveness of all our sins...past, present and future. But when we ask him how one loses one's salvation and he tells us by sinning without repentance. So we point out that logically if follows that if you sin in ignorance or for any other reason fail to repent and ask forgiveness of a particular sin, then you are in danger of condemnation. He shrinks back from this and insists that its "practicing" sin that costs one their salvation, but he can't seem to define just what practicing sin entails. If, as he sometimes seems to hint, it's simply committing the same sin time and again then we are most of us without hope because we all struggle with the same sins that we continually fight against...some our entire lives.

IOW, Ben is fully devoted to opposing any notion of any security in our salvation, but is equally committed to avoiding the logical implications of his own position.
 
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Ben johnson

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Bee'sBoy said:
Actually - I think your classifications of all aren't quite on the mark. Since we're on Antinomianism - I'll stick with that for now.

Your definition of Antinonianism is wrong in that these folks believe it is possible to be in fellowship with God and involved in blatant sin at the same time. Fornication is usually the sin of choice - for example the original Antinomianists believed in practicing worship by having orgies and illicit sex.
Whether or not a person thinks there can be "sinning-fellowship", clearly Jesus cannot indwell a person walking in sin. This verse fits perfectly: "If we say we have fellowship with Him but walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, ...the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:6-7
I know its all semantics here - but I think it's important to point out where you are flawed right of the gate - so that when we hit Calvinism it will be apparant that perhaps you have a bit more research to do in defining the terms acurately
The looser definition of Antinomianism with "sinning but saved", covering both aspects of "fellowship, or not", is what I meant.

The truth of Jesus' Gospel is that we cannot walk in sin, while having the indwelt-fellowship that is salvation. "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it?" Rom6:1
 
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AndOne

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Whether or not a person thinks there can be "sinning-fellowship", clearly Jesus cannot indwell a person walking in sin. This verse fits perfectly: "If we say we have fellowship with Him but walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, ...the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:6-7
The looser definition of Antinomianism with "sinning but saved", covering both aspects of "fellowship, or not", is what I meant.

The truth of Jesus' Gospel is that we cannot walk in sin, while having the indwelt-fellowship that is salvation. "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it?" Rom6:1

Hi Ben -

Yea I knew what you meant - but the point I'm trying to make is that you will use "looser" definitions of Calvinism in your classifications as well - and that just isn't going to fly. When you start classifying things into specific categories - particularly when you start looking at sets of beliefs - its important to get them right - to truly be able to understand them.

In other words - if you are going to use historical terms for this - use the actual historical definitions - not your own, as you have done with antinominism.

I'm actually trying to help you out - if you want me to listen to what you have to say about this stuff - particularly your rejection of Calvinism - then show me at least that you know what it is you are rejecting before telling me why. When you get something wrong - be willing to accept correction from those who are more knowledgeable of this stuff - or this thing is never going to get off the ground.
 
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moonbeam

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The truth of Jesus' Gospel is that we cannot walk in sin, while having the indwelt-fellowship that is salvation.
Did you sin yesterday Ben? [be honest now]...are you practicing sin Ben?

Did you sin today Ben? [be honest now]...are you practicing sin Ben?

Will you sin tommorow Ben? [be honest now]...that would be three days running...are you practicing sin Ben?

Are you practicing sin Ben? [be honest now]
 
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