Orthodoxy's views on non-intercourse Sexual Activity?

[Chesterton]

it was in the greater context of the talk. Fr Tom was definitely against Christians engaging in such activity.

Is there any, like, official unified Church pronouncement on the matter?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is there any, like, official unified Church pronouncement on the matter?

not sure if there is any official dogmatic saying or anything. every priest I met has said that some things, like oral sex, are wrong. those areas of the human body (forgive the crudeness) are not for the mouth.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I'm pretty sure those rules were broken in Rochelle, Rochelle from Milan all the way to Minsk...

not sure if there is any official dogmatic saying or anything. every priest I met has said that some things, like oral sex, are wrong. those areas of the human body (forgive the crudeness) are not for the mouth.

 

[nutroll]

I say, as a fallen sinner myself, that it is now clear to me that all these things described here are not part of God’s plan. They are misuse. I have been caught in the net of the world like so many others. But the truth is simple and clear. It’s not God’s plan. Accept that, and everything becomes clear. Sodomy becomes, not a narrow understanding of one particular act, but behavior that leads to the state of Sodom. And these behaviors do. If they are illegitimate in one context, they can be imagined, however wrongly, as legitimate in another. If they are illegitimate in all contexts, that pulls the rug from under the wooden leg the Alphabet Soup people are standing on.

We have all, or at least most of us have, been seduced by the world to imagine these things legitimate, and so, have enabled and abetted (however unwittingly) the evils unleashed in the world today.

Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner!

This is one of those subjects I would rather not wade into too deeply, but I do want to address this line of thinking. Even heterosexual, procreative sex is not acceptable unless it is within marriage. I don't think we need to pronounce what is acceptable or unacceptable in the marriage bed to say that what happens outside of a marriage bed is not acceptable. I understand the thinking that if we can say "See. I don't do those filthy disgusting things with my own wife/husband, so why should I allow you to do that with your [fill in the blank with whatever letter-oriented partner you have in mind]." I think that makes it seem like what makes marriage acceptable is that it is limited to certain kinds of sex that those other people are incapable of. Instead what makes marriage acceptable and the sexual activity within marriage acceptable is the blessing of the Church, the mystery of marriage itself. There is still room within that to have a robust discussion about how marriage is not meant to be a free-for-all or solely for fulfilling our desires for pleasure, but that is a discussion that includes elements of pastoral care, asceticism and fasting, and issues that are somewhat beside the point that marriage is a sacrament and a mystery of the Kingdom more so than a license or contract.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And when we really get down to it, there are rigorists who might think having sex after menopause or a hysterectomy (timely discussion on my part here!) would be sinful because the possibility of conception is no longer there, so it's just pure lust. I knew Catholics who thought like that. I know St. Augustine and some Fathers would say that after menopause you should be "as brother and sister" with your wife. Honestly I left Catholicism and a lot of this thinking behind there....the laundry lists of what you can and cannot do, when, etc. We almost need a rubric....

This is one of those subjects I would rather not wade into too deeply, but I do want to address this line of thinking. Even heterosexual, procreative sex is not acceptable unless it is within marriage. I don't think we need to pronounce what is acceptable or unacceptable in the marriage bed to say that what happens outside of a marriage bed is not acceptable. I understand the thinking that if we can say "See. I don't do those filthy disgusting things with my own wife/husband, so why should I allow you to do that with your [fill in the blank with whatever letter-oriented partner you have in mind]." I think that makes it seem like what makes marriage acceptable is that it is limited to certain kinds of sex that those other people are incapable of. Instead what makes marriage acceptable and the sexual activity within marriage acceptable is the blessing of the Church, the mystery of marriage itself. There is still room within that to have a robust discussion about how marriage is not meant to be a free-for-all or solely for fulfilling our desires for pleasure, but that is a discussion that includes elements of pastoral care, asceticism and fasting, and issues that are somewhat beside the point that marriage is a sacrament and a mystery of the Kingdom more so than a license or contract.

 

[ArmyMatt]

And when we really get down to it, there are rigorists who might think having sex after menopause or a hysterectomy (timely discussion on my part here!) would be sinful because the possibility of conception is no longer there, so it's just pure lust. I knew Catholics who thought like that. I know St. Augustine and some Fathers would say that after menopause you should be "as brother and sister" with your wife. Honestly I left Catholicism and a lot of this thinking behind there....the laundry lists of what you can and cannot do, when, etc. We almost need a rubric....

I am not saying folks should be prudes or anything, but I have yet to hear any defense for certain practices for sex. every priest I have spoken to has said that we should not do certain things.

and it's not the same thing as having sex after menopause or something like that. because children would be an option if the person could still have kids. oral sex intentionally and needlessly removes that possibility, unlike menopause.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And when we really get down to it, there are rigorists who might think having sex after menopause or a hysterectomy (timely discussion on my part here!) would be sinful because the possibility of conception is no longer there, so it's just pure lust. I knew Catholics who thought like that. I know St. Augustine and some Fathers would say that after menopause you should be "as brother and sister" with your wife. Honestly I left Catholicism and a lot of this thinking behind there....the laundry lists of what you can and cannot do, when, etc. We almost need a rubric....

That's where it becomes difficult to justify - when you take it to the point where if children aren't possible for whatever reason, then sexual activity must cease because procreation is no longer the motive. But that is not what is being said, thankfully.

I know one couple living as brother and sister (and was a bit surprised by that - it was obviously a later decision since they have children). But it's not the kind of topic we delve into with one another in the parish setting.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's where it becomes difficult to justify - when you take it to the point where if children aren't possible for whatever reason, then sexual activity must cease because procreation is no longer the motive. But that is not what is being said, thankfully.

right. the Bible and our history is full of examples of couples who, due to age or whatever, conceive and have kids.

 

[~Anastasia~]

right. the Bible and our history is full of examples of couples who, due to age or whatever, conceive and have kids.

Speaking as one without that expectation - that would certainly come as a surprise! But much as I wanted more, I suspect in my particular case it is probably the wisdom of God not to allow that to happen. For many reasons.

But I know you are right.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Speaking as one without that expectation - that would certainly come as a surprise! But much as I wanted more, I suspect in my particular case it is probably the wisdom of God not to allow that to happen. For many reasons.

But I know you are right.

some of the effects of the Fall we have to deal with. one of the priests who married me was unable to conceive with his wife, but the two of them are still called to become one. and because of that, they are a great witness for marriage despite not having biological kids.

 

[prodromos]

well, I wasn't equating bondage and oral sex, just two things that came to mind as no-go's. there are certain parts of the body that should not go into other parts.

As our spiritual Father put it, we receive Christ's pure body and precious blood through our mouths. Should we even consider putting our spouse's sexual organs in the same place?

 

[Chris V++]

As our spiritual Father put it, we receive Christ's pure body and precious blood through our mouths. Should we even consider putting our spouse's sexual organs in the same place?

What about kissing your spouse? Wouldn't that also be off limits?

This is where the grass is a little greener from the non orthodox perspective :
'Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.' Mat 15:11

 

[prodromos]

What about kissing your spouse? Wouldn't that also be off limits?

I don't see why? You aren't putting them into your mouth.

This is where the grass is a little greener from the non orthodox perspective:
'Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.' Mat 15:11

This is talking about food, not your spouse's genitals.

 

[AMM]

What about kissing your spouse? Wouldn't that also be off limits?

This is where the grass is a little greener from the non orthodox perspective :
'Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.' Mat 15:11

We don't go to where the grass is greener, we go to where Christ has sent his Spirit to guide the Church into all Truth and stand against the gates of hell.

I don't see why? You aren't putting them into your mouth.

This is talking about food, not your spouse's genitals.

Not to be crude, but there are forms of kissing (namely the region formerly known as Gaul) which do involve a body part entering the other person's mouth.

 

[Chris V++]

Not to be crude, but there are forms of kissing (namely the region formerly known as Gaul) which do involve a body part entering the other person's mouth.

Yes. I think they call it Freedom Kissing in the midwest.

 

[~Anastasia~]

some of the effects of the Fall we have to deal with. one of the priests who married me was unable to conceive with his wife, but the two of them are still called to become one. and because of that, they are a great witness for marriage despite not having biological kids.

Well ours has been a rocky road. The Church has helped tremendously just in remaining married - and improved greatly on that as well. I don't think we could be seen as a great witness at this point, but I thank God that He got us from a place where moment by moment life was hardly bearable (and my priest would have supported me in ending the marriage) ... to having a pretty good one just five years later.

I don't think I have the energy to be a mother to little ones anymore anyway. And thank God I have a daughter. God willing, maybe grandchildren someday.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I meant to ask, Fr Matt ... did you mention a podcast by Fr Thomas Hopko that addresses all this? I looked for it but can't find it (though found some related things on AFR I might go back to). Do you remember the name or can you provide a link? Thank you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well ours has been a rocky road. The Church has helped tremendously just in remaining married - and improved greatly on that as well. I don't think we could be seen as a great witness at this point, but I thank God that He got us from a place where moment by moment life was hardly bearable (and my priest would have supported me in ending the marriage) ... to having a pretty good one just five years later.

I don't think I have the energy to be a mother to little ones anymore anyway. And thank God I have a daughter. God willing, maybe grandchildren someday.

thank God! my point was only in saying a married couple having sex when they can't for whatever reason, is not the same as two people having oral sex, where they are intentionally spilling the seed in a way where children are not possible.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I meant to ask, Fr Matt ... did you mention a podcast by Fr Thomas Hopko that addresses all this? I looked for it but can't find it (though found some related things on AFR I might go back to). Do you remember the name or can you provide a link? Thank you.

no, it was a talk he gave at Penn State

 

[~Anastasia~]

no, it was a talk he gave at Penn State

Ah ok thank you. That would explain why I couldn't find it.