Orthodoxy - Protestantism and Catholicism & Charismatic Movement

[Markie Boy]

As I keep learning - thanks to AFR - I'm starting to really see things different.

As I have tried to understand Catholic Indulgences I just can't make it work, but am seeing what others have said - in many ways Catholics and Protestants see things in the same way far more than Catholic and Orthodox.

Indulgences seem to highlight this for me, as I see this very legalistic and transactional view of what the faith means. Protestants have really run with this too in the Sola Fide thought. And there is what I'm seeing - Catholic and Protestants seem to have this transactional and legal view of things.

Orthodoxy seems to be more relationship oriented - am I catching on? It feels different, but having difficulty putting it all in words.

But the Charismatic movement in Catholicism sort of drove me nuts with some of the odd things they do, but I think part of what they do is this - when Catholicism went all scholastic it lost an awful lot. They are trying to regain the mystical encounter with the Holy Spirit that was lost, and I can't overly knock them for it. Instead of inventing something new - they should have looked further back for answers.

I have one question that ties to this. In the idea of Indulgences - it's about removing punishment for sins already forgiven. Is there any Biblical or good Patristic evidence for this, or that there is even still punishment after forgiveness?

 

[ArmyMatt]

we would say no, or else we would believe in them.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I remember reading about just that from St. Mark of Ephesus. What sense does punishment make after forgiveness is granted?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Oh but I think it's a very good observation and I agree. In many ways Catholics and Protestants share certain ideas - as opposed to Orthodoxy. I just don't think either Catholics or Protestants often realize it.

 

[FenderTL5]

I don't recall the source, but I recall reading something that I thought was an intriguing concept.
You've most likely seen the graphic on the Trinity that is intended to describe the difference between the Eastern view of the Trinity contrasted with that in the West which contains the filioque.
It looks something like this:


One writer, again I don't recall the source, suggests it could be that the Charismatic movement recognizes the diminished position of the Holy Spirit in the western view of the Trinity and attempts to correct it by placing the wrong emPHAsis on the Spirit.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't recall the source, but I recall reading something that I thought was an intriguing concept.
You've most likely seen the graphic on the Trinity that is intended to describe the difference between the Eastern view of the Trinity contrasted with that in the West which contains the filioque.
It looks something like this:
View attachment 250392

One writer, again I don't recall the source, suggests it could be that the Charismatic movement recognizes the diminished position of the Holy Spirit in the western view of the Trinity and attempts to correct it by placing the wrong emPHAsis on the Spirit.

I remember reading that too and thinking it seemed pretty accurate. The Holy Spirit wasn't exactly said to be so, but almost kind of thought of as an impersonal force like a source of energy in some of the denominations I grew up around.

 

[straykat]

As I keep learning - thanks to AFR - I'm starting to really see things different.

As I have tried to understand Catholic Indulgences I just can't make it work, but am seeing what others have said - in many ways Catholics and Protestants see things in the same way far more than Catholic and Orthodox.

Indulgences seem to highlight this for me, as I see this very legalistic and transactional view of what the faith means. Protestants have really run with this too in the Sola Fide thought. And there is what I'm seeing - Catholic and Protestants seem to have this transactional and legal view of things.

Orthodoxy seems to be more relationship oriented - am I catching on? It feels different, but having difficulty putting it all in words.

But the Charismatic movement in Catholicism sort of drove me nuts with some of the odd things they do, but I think part of what they do is this - when Catholicism went all scholastic it lost an awful lot. They are trying to regain the mystical encounter with the Holy Spirit that was lost, and I can't overly knock them for it. Instead of inventing something new - they should have looked further back for answers.

I have one question that ties to this. In the idea of Indulgences - it's about removing punishment for sins already forgiven. Is there any Biblical or good Patristic evidence for this, or that there is even still punishment after forgiveness?

I think the word you're looking for about the Catholic/Protestant outlook here is "juridical".

I'm only pointing this out because I learned it myself recently ​

 

[Markie Boy]

Yes - juridical seems very accurate. Legalistic as well?

 

[straykat]

Yes - juridical seems very accurate. Legalistic as well?

Maybe in some cases.. but I don't think necessarily. I heard of one Trent era teaching that surmised that you were disrespecting the Eucharist if you coughed in church or something. That's definitely legalism! But not all Catholics would go that far...especially nowadays.

I think juridical is a better word for the overall approach, even in it's non-extremes. Even I still find myself talking in juridical terms from time to time. Theologically correct statements like "bought with the blood of Christ" (and other similar statements that focus on the death of Christ) have a juridical element to them, but I later discovered how much emphasis the Orthodox also place on the Incarnation and Resurrection as well. It doesn't have this soteriology that focuses on Christ's death in the same way. But rather, a salvation done by Christ taking on the nature of flesh to begin with.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't recall the source, but I recall reading something that I thought was an intriguing concept.
You've most likely seen the graphic on the Trinity that is intended to describe the difference between the Eastern view of the Trinity contrasted with that in the West which contains the filioque.
It looks something like this:
View attachment 250392

One writer, again I don't recall the source, suggests it could be that the Charismatic movement recognizes the diminished position of the Holy Spirit in the western view of the Trinity and attempts to correct it by placing the wrong emPHAsis on the Spirit.

Hmmm...and Orthodoxy is the pyramid view...innnnterestinggggg...

But seriously, that is good as a very basic summary. As someone who was once RC like the OP, I did realize this difference only after stepping away for study and prayer so that I was able to see things from 'outside' of RCism before actually going anywhere else. To OP: I hope you are giving yourself the same 'space' right now, spiritually and mentally. To change your way internally (what I believe would be called in Greek metanoia) is not just acquiring the necessary knowledge to see how X is different than Y, but to learn and worship holistically, and live accordingly. Or at least this was and is the biggest change and challenge for me in shedding my own former mindset. Maybe you will have different specific struggles. Lord have mercy in any case.

To the question you've posed, I hope I can say without controversy that indulgences in particular are pretty ridiculous, and the "Treasury of Merit" concept to which they are tied essentially makes God into some sort of cosmic ATM, as I have put it before on this very board. It's not hard to see why that would be rejected, as to quantify the unquantifiable in this manner is surely in error, as scripture both talks about the Holy Spirit filling all things, and also about time as we know it not existing with God, since time is a human concept to begin with.

 

[Markie Boy]

Very well put. I'm really trying to give myself a little space to relax and see things. Working 11-12 hour days and caring for a family doesn't leave a lot of time these days, but hoping in a month or so it will subside.

A great reply - thank you

 

[Silverback]

As I keep learning - thanks to AFR - I'm starting to really see things different.

As I have tried to understand Catholic Indulgences I just can't make it work, but am seeing what others have said - in many ways Catholics and Protestants see things in the same way far more than Catholic and Orthodox.

Indulgences seem to highlight this for me, as I see this very legalistic and transactional view of what the faith means. Protestants have really run with this too in the Sola Fide thought. And there is what I'm seeing - Catholic and Protestants seem to have this transactional and legal view of things.

Orthodoxy seems to be more relationship oriented - am I catching on? It feels different, but having difficulty putting it all in words.

But the Charismatic movement in Catholicism sort of drove me nuts with some of the odd things they do, but I think part of what they do is this - when Catholicism went all scholastic it lost an awful lot. They are trying to regain the mystical encounter with the Holy Spirit that was lost, and I can't overly knock them for it. Instead of inventing something new - they should have looked further back for answers.

I have one question that ties to this. In the idea of Indulgences - it's about removing punishment for sins already forgiven. Is there any Biblical or good Patristic evidence for this, or that there is even still punishment after forgiveness?

Oh but I think it's a very good observation and I agree. In many ways Catholics and Protestants share certain ideas - as opposed to Orthodoxy. I just don't think either Catholics or Protestants often realize it.

Opposite sides of the same coin!

 

[RobNJ]

HOLY SENSELESS THREAD NECROMANCY, BATMAN!!!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Opposite sides of the same coin!

Just answered this in another thread.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

While they have differences, yes Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism (I'll admit upfront, I am being very lose and saying Protestantism Generally ) share many similarities such a very Augustinian view of Original Sin/Guilt(Protestantism took it even further with Total Depravity), the addition of the Filioque in the Creed, the way both look at the Atonement, Legalistic and Juridical view of theology, etc.

The closet to us would be the Oriental Orthodox such as the Coptic Orthodox, and Syriac Orthodox.