Orthodoxy: pro-marriage?

FireDragon76

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A thread got sidetracked on TAW, so I thought I would raise this issue here. I have found several Orthodox Christians that basically see sexuality and marriage as a concession to human weakness. I have read various opinions of Orthodox Christians, some in positions of authority, that show contempt for sexuality to various degrees.

1) I've read from a few places the opinion that, without the Fall, Adam would have reproduced through mitosis like an amoeba

2) I've read the rant of an Antiochian priest that claimed Viagra was evil and impotence a blessing.

3) Orthodox do not allow bishops to marry, (despite the Bible stating that a bishop can be married to one wife): the hierarchy is dominated by men who have taken vows of celibacy. There is a derth of theology in Orthodoxy by married individuals. Paul Evdokimov is the only married Orthodox theologian that comes to my mind.
 
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jckstraw72

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Orthodoxy is pro-salvation, and each person has to discern what their path to salvation is - whether marriage or monasticism. it is absolutely a teaching of the Church that marriage as we know it now, including sexual reproduction, is a post-Fall reality.
 
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Kristos

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A thread got sidetracked on TAW, so I thought I would raise this issue here. I have found several Orthodox Christians that basically see sexuality and marriage as a concession to human weakness. I have read various opinions of Orthodox Christians, some in positions of authority, that show contempt for sexuality to various degrees.

1) I've read from a few places the opinion that, without the Fall, Adam would have reproduced through mitosis like an amoeba

2) I've read the rant of an Antiochian priest that claimed Viagra was evil and impotence a blessing.

3) Orthodox do not allow bishops to marry, (despite the Bible stating that a bishop can be married to one wife): the hierarchy is dominated by men who have taken vows of celibacy. There is a derth of theology in Orthodoxy by married individuals. Paul Evdokimov is the only married Orthodox theologian that comes to my mind.

If you want a deeper understanding - and perhaps even a better marriage (God knows it helped me) - I suggest reading this book:

Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective: John Meyendorff: 9780913836057: Amazon.com: Books

I'm sure there are quibbles about some it - but it's very good. I encourage any married person or person contemplating marriage to read it.

And for the record - Fr John Meyendorff was a married theologian;)
 
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@Firedragon76, one shouldn't assume that if we believe that marriage is a reality that has come about due to the Fall that somehow we regard it as something negative or bad. Your Western thinking is showing through again.

Anyone who has been to an Orthodox marriage service will know right away the high esteem the Church considers marriage and family life. The service is joyful and beautiful. We regard the relationship between husband and wife as if they are Kings and Queens, we actually crown them as a matter of fact!

You also shouldn't assume that because the Church has made such a rule as celebacy for bishops, that its not possible for that to be changed again in the future. I'm not aruging for or against that, I personally don't know enough about the celebacy rules for bishops, nonetheless, it appears that you might be assuming something that is not true.

One more thing, (I say this to everyone) you cannot, cannot, cannot, rely on the internet to learn about and understand Orthodoxy. You can use the internet as a starting point, but just like going to a library and getting a book about how to grow tomatoes, you can read read read read all about growing tomatoes, but you will never actually learn about growing tomatoes until you put the book down, get down on your hands and knees and start planting a garden.
It is the same with Orthodoxy, it is a way of life, in fact, we will go so far as to say that it is life!
Shut your computer down, but before doing that, google the nearest Orthodox parish to you and start attending!
 
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FireDragon76

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@Firedragon76, one shouldn't assume that if we believe that marriage is a reality that has come about due to the Fall that somehow we regard it as something negative or bad. Your Western thinking is showing through again.

Yeah, it does mean if marriage is the result of the Fall, it's something less than the ideal of the original Adam being unstained by sin, just reproducing through mitosis. Furthermore, it casts sexuality in general in a dim light.

That's really insulting to presume I am just a Westerner who needs to be "enlightened" by the East. It sounds more like you just want me to stop thinking and accept your hocus-pocus.

One more thing, (I say this to everyone) you cannot, cannot, cannot, rely on the internet to learn about and understand Orthodoxy.

You should read my other recent thread here at SJMC, and you'ld see that I've spent a lot of time attending Orthodox services.
 
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So, I point out a difference in the thinking between the East and West (and there are many who will agree that there are differences) and you call that insulting, but you say what we do in the Church is "hocus pocus" and that's not insulting? Please try to rationalize that, I would love to hear it, it would be fascinating.

when I said attend a local parish, I didn't mean to just visit a few services, what I meant is to attend on a regular basis, get to know the people who attend, especially the priest, and eventually, become a catechumen. typing on a screen with pixels cannot be a substitute for real flesh and blood relationships.

Yes, we all need to be enlighten, for Christ is the light of the world, and only through Him and in His one undivided Church can one truly be enlighten.

It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder
 
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jckstraw72

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Yeah, it does mean if marriage is the result of the Fall, it's something less than the ideal of the original Adam being unstained by sin, just reproducing through mitosis. Furthermore, it casts sexuality in general in a dim light.

even though marriage is after the Fall, we still acknowledge that it is a great gift from God which is blessed by God in His Church.

doctors perform surgery to save people's lives ... is this not a gift, or is this a negative thing just because we recognize that surgery is only in response to ill health or an accident?
 
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FireDragon76

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when I said attend a local parish, I didn't mean to just visit a few services, what I meant is to attend on a regular basis, get to know the people who attend, especially the priest, and eventually, become a catechumen. typing on a screen with pixels cannot be a substitute for real flesh and blood relationships.

Again, read my thread I started... I got to know quite a few people at St. Stephen the Protomartyr, OCA., in Lake Mary, Florida I'm on good terms with Fr. Daniel, and I am a catechumen there. For pastoral reasons I no longer attend or participate in the Orthodox life, but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant.

I do not necessarily think Orthodoxy is hocus pocus, but your explanation certainly is.. it's inconsistent. At least in my understanding, if something is the result of the Fall, then it is a concession to our fallen humanity if the Church permits it at all (such as the case with remarriage).

I find the Orthodox marriage ceremony beautiful actually... better than the western one where people exchange vows as some sort of legal contract. But that can all be undermined theologically if the message and attitudes of the rest of the Christian life do not measure up. In some cases, I find the pre-eminence of the opinions of celibate clergy and monastics to be unsettling and contrary to the Jewish roots of our faith.

doctors perform surgery to save people's lives ... is this not a gift, or is this a negative thing just because we recognize that surgery is only in response to ill health or an accident?

So one of the greatest things a person can do... to share their life with someone else in a most intimate way... is comparable to fixing something that is broken? This does not fit at all my experience. It strikes me as sub-biblical.

If you want a deeper understanding - and perhaps even a better marriage (God knows it helped me) - I suggest reading this book:

Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective: John Meyendorff: 9780913836057: Amazon.com: Books

I'm sure there are quibbles about some it - but it's very good. I encourage any married person or person contemplating marriage to read it.

And for the record - Fr John Meyendorff was a married theologian;)

I'l look into that book, for sure. I have a lot of respect for the theologians at St. Vladimir's, and I've read Schmemann's For the Life of the World . When I was referring to the derth of theologians that are married, I was thinking more of the Church Fathers, none of whom I believe were married . I find Augustine's views of marriage and sexuality in particular to be repugnant.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I would point out that the marriage of Adam and Eve was pre Fall. it's the physical side of the sexual union of husband and wife AS WE KNOW IT, that is post Fall. Adam and Even were married IN the Garden, not after it. the command to be fruitful and multiply was before the Fall, and not after it. it is the course sensuality of our sexuality that is post Fall, not our sexuality itself.
 
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Dorothea

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If you want a deeper understanding - and perhaps even a better marriage (God knows it helped me) - I suggest reading this book:

Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective: John Meyendorff: 9780913836057: Amazon.com: Books

I'm sure there are quibbles about some it - but it's very good. I encourage any married person or person contemplating marriage to read it.

And for the record - Fr John Meyendorff was a married theologian;)
Hmmm, I haven't heard or read that one. Just the one FireDragon mentioned. May have to check that one out. Thanks.
 
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FireDragon76

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I would point out that the marriage of Adam and Eve was pre Fall. it's the physical side of the sexual union of husband and wife AS WE KNOW IT, that is post Fall. Adam and Even were married IN the Garden, not after it. the command to be fruitful and multiply was before the Fall, and not after it. it is the course sensuality of our sexuality that is post Fall, not our sexuality itself.

That's more nuanced and less objectionable. And I do admit that our sexuality has been touched by the effects of sin. Still, I would like to read more opinions about this issue.
 
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@Firedragon76, what Matt said isn't some nuance statement, it is reflective of Orthodox theology. Your initial post was stated in a negative tone, you said our understanding results in a negative view of marriage and sexuality, not us, and we are correcting your statement.

You also did said that it is hocus pocus, because what I told you is Orthodox theology and you called it "hocus pocus" so don't try to weasel out of that.

You also did not come on here asking a question but rather made a statement almost as if you are trying to bait us into an argument rather than a discussion.
 
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FireDragon76

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You also did not come on here asking a question but rather made a statement almost as if you are trying to bait us into an argument rather than a discussion.

Greg, I'm very blunt and I don't mince words. That's just who I am. I don't think I was meaning to be offensive to Matt, though perhaps being somewhat confrontational and disputatious is inevitable. Maybe I am wrong after all, but that will only come about when my perceptions are challenged.. and I can only speak from what I perceive to be true.

I do find it offensive though when you use these categories of "Western" and "Eastern". That sort of apologetic, I find very weak, a sign of a lack of intellectual integrity . There is this thing called language, and it uses the rules that follow a logical pattern, and these logical rules are universal and understood in every culture. It's not a question of being western or eastern. If an argument is sound, a person will understand it whether they are Chinese or English.

Now, what Matt said is NOT what you said. You said sex and sexuality are solely the consequences of the Fall. Matt said some aspects of sexuality are the result of the Fall. These are very different statements, and yes, his position has more nuance and complexity.
 
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Kristos

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i would disagree - sexuality itself is post-fall.

That is indefensible. If sexuality itself is post-fall, then it is unredeemable and inherently evil and therefore would have no place even within a Christian marriage - which we know is not the case.
 
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let's keep the topic of the tread focused on whether or not the Church sees marriage and sexuality negatively because marriage started after the Fall (firedragon76's original point, which it doesn't btw,) rather than whether or not sex took place before the Fall (I don't believe there's anything "dogmatic" about that within the Church, but I could be wrong)

@Firedragon76, I'm sorry, but no, stating that there's a difference between Eastern and Western thought processes/beliefs/philosophy is hardly insulting except to those who are overly sensitive, or deny that there is a difference.

However, your statement about language and what all that means quite frankly, comes across as condenscending.
 
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Cappadocious

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I would point out that the marriage of Adam and Eve was pre Fall. it's the physical side of the sexual union of husband and wife AS WE KNOW IT, that is post Fall. Adam and Even were married IN the Garden, not after it. the command to be fruitful and multiply was before the Fall, and not after it. it is the course sensuality of our sexuality that is post Fall, not our sexuality itself.
I don't think that sensuality and physicality are the words we want to use. "Carnal" is something more mysterious and less dualistic than that, is it not?
 
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Cappadocious

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That is indefensible. If sexuality itself is post-fall, then it is unredeemable and inherently evil and therefore would have no place even within a Christian marriage - which we know is not the case.
While I agree with you that sexuality is not "fallen" as such, it is not the case that everything post-fall is un-redeemable and inherently evil.

The knowledge of good and evil is not inherently evil; it was simply seized by man apart from God and before man was ready to bear it.

Some speculate that there was no meat-eating before Noah, but Christ ate flesh after being Resurrected.

And finally, the Resurrection itself; St. Paul makes it clear that salvation is not merely restoration to the state of Adam, but something beyond it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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i would disagree - sexuality itself is post-fall. the Fathers say we were called to multiply in some other, unknown way.

sexuality meaning Adam is male and Eve is female. sexuality meaning more than the act of sex, sorry for the lack of clarity.
 
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