Orthodoxy and the Alt-Right

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, I think this is one of the reasons we need to be vigilant on this front and speak out on and articulate how this is unacceptable in the Church.

I've been brushing up on the topic:

HATE GROUP’S MATT PARROTT RESPONDS TO OUR OPEN LETTER

I think its telling there is a connection between being "pro-white" and "anti-Globalist" on Mr. Matt Parrott's mind. I could see how he could arrive at the stance that Orthodoxy could easily be a safe-haven for "traditionalism" of this sort, esp. because certain Greek and Russian theologians and clergy have taken polemical stances against the cosmopolitanism and pluralism of the West. After all, the alt-right is heavily fuelled by despair and could see such anti-Western rhetoric in Nietzschean terms. "Burn the village to save the village", etc.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: gzt

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
The most damning thing is when he compares the Cross to "folkish symbols". We Lutherans have heard that sort of language before, when the guts of Christianity are hollowed out and stuffed with the worship of the Volk. Mr. Parrott is not a Christian, he's a Nazi, and he needs to stop pretending otherwise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gzt
Upvote 0

gzt

The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years
Jul 14, 2004
10,592
1,863
Abolish ICE
Visit site
✟116,222.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I mean, I think we should be careful about attributing too much to what's going on in Parrott's mind - he's a little... bird-brained.

However, I think you do have a point there - people on the alt-right are often careful to start from words conservatives or other authorities have said and appropriate them so people think they're just talking to somebody who is a "normal" conservative. Then a "normal" conservative who is perhaps questioning things about race relations or the history of slavery or "states' rights" won't be alarmed. Then they start introducing more "edgy" content, memes, maybe some dubious "facts" which get their further buy-in. The people at a prominent white nationalist web site explicitly say that their goal is get the people who are at the "I'm not racist but..." stage. They also like to use obscure foreign sources because they may not be criticized or properly contextualized or even represented appropriately. Similarly with their misappropriation of academic material.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,682
8,018
PA
Visit site
✟1,013,227.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think its telling there is a connection between being "pro-white" and "anti-Globalist" on Mr. Matt Parrott's mind. I could see how he could arrive at the stance that Orthodoxy could easily be a safe-haven for "traditionalism" of this sort, esp. because certain Greek and Russian theologians and clergy have taken polemical stances against the cosmopolitanism and pluralism of the West. After all, the alt-right is heavily fuelled by despair and could see such anti-Western rhetoric in Nietzschean terms. "Burn the village to save the village", etc.
Are you suggesting that Orthodoxy is a place that is likely to harbor racism, ethnophyletism, etc.? I honestly have not seen the racism that this article mentioned in my personal experience. If something like that happened, I know my priest and fellow parishioners would be addressing it quickly and thoroughly. Orthodoxy does not promote “Make America White Again” (as said in the article) and it is not Pro-Nazi. TWP is not representative of Orthodoxy. To imply that Orthodoxy is a haven for that type of thinking is slandering the majority who are not that way. An individual or even a group is not representative of us as a whole. The same could be said about Catholics, Lutherans, Evangelicals, etc. You will always find some people who are not following the Christian faith, no matter what faith they hold. It doesn’t mean all that hold to the same faith group, denomination or Church are like that.

Seriously...associating the traditional perspective Orthodox Christians have with racism is wrong...and I would think you’d know that. We need to condemn hate, and promote love...which is a core tenet of the Christian faith. I hope I am misunderstanding your post.
 
Upvote 0

gzt

The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years
Jul 14, 2004
10,592
1,863
Abolish ICE
Visit site
✟116,222.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
And so, to complete my thought, they tie all these things together into an ideology with threads coming out linking to popular discourse and terms but ultimately leading back to this ball of yarn here.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

gzt

The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years
Jul 14, 2004
10,592
1,863
Abolish ICE
Visit site
✟116,222.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Are you suggesting that Orthodoxy is a place that is likely to harbor racism, ethnophyletism, etc.? I honestly have not seen the racism that this article mentioned in my personal experience. If something like that happened, I know my priest and fellow parishioners would be addressing it quickly and thoroughly. Orthodoxy does not promote “Make America White Again” (as said in the article) and it is not Pro-Nazi. TWP is not representative of Orthodoxy. To imply that Orthodoxy is a haven for that type of thinking is slandering the majority who are not that way. An individual or even a group is not representative of us as a whole. The same could be said about Catholics, Lutherans, Evangelicals, etc. You will always find some people who are not following the Christian faith, no matter what faith they hold. It doesn’t mean all that hold to the same faith group, denomination or Church are like that.

Seriously...associating the traditional perspective Orthodox Christians have with racism is wrong...and I would think you’d know that. We need to condemn hate, and promote love...which is a core tenet of the Christian faith. I hope I am misunderstanding your post.
That's not what he's implying - he's saying that these TWP sorts see something they can try to corrupt in this way.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: archer75
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Yeah, I definitely don't think its about normal skepticism of globalism (plenty on the left engage in that, after all), its more about cloaking ones ideology in traditional symbols and manipulating them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gzt
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,682
8,018
PA
Visit site
✟1,013,227.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
That's not what he's implying - he's saying that these TWP sorts see something they can try to corrupt in this way.
I agree that any group that promotes hatred - TWP being an excellent example - tries to corrupt things that are good, including the Christian faith.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

archer75

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 16, 2016
5,930
4,649
USA
✟253,749.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I took the post not to say that Orthodoxy welcomes that nonsense, but that purveyors of such nonsense are likely to be attracted to what they think is Orthodoxy.

Is "folkish" here a calque from German? That's monstrous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gzt
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
I took the post not to say that Orthodoxy welcomes that nonsense, but that purveyors of such nonsense are likely to be attracted to what they think is Orthodoxy.

Is "folkish" here a calque from German? That's monstrous.

Yes. That's the dead giveaway. Volk became an acceptable theological concept in Germany in the Evangelisch Deustsch Kirche in the early 20th century.

I suspect his real religion is worship of Volk and everything "folkish". In their minds, Orthodoxy isn't so much Christian, or rather Cruciform, as much as part of a counter-cultural pastiche.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
again I say, to clear up this kinda mess if it were me, add ethnophyletism to the anathemas. I think seeing a bishop extinguish a candle at that moment would send a clear message.

and remind folks as well that we do have a canon against racial injustice.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ~Anastasia~
Upvote 0

archer75

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 16, 2016
5,930
4,649
USA
✟253,749.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yes. That's the dead giveaway. Volk became an acceptable theological concept in Germany in the Evangelisch Deustsch Kirche in the early 20th century.

I suspect his real religion is worship of Volk and everything "folkish". In their minds, Orthodoxy isn't so much Christian, or rather Cruciform, as much as part of a counter-cultural pastiche.
Ugh.

Our brother Tolkien had this to say: "I have in this War a burning private grudge—which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler (for the odd thing about demonic inspiration and impetus is that it in no way enhances the purely intellectual stature: it chiefly affects the mere will). Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light."
 
Upvote 0

archer75

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 16, 2016
5,930
4,649
USA
✟253,749.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
again I say, to clear up this kinda mess if it were me, add ethnophyletism to the anathemas. I think seeing a bishop extinguish a candle at that moment would send a clear message.

and remind folks as well that we do have a canon against racial injustice.
I'm not disagreeing - but are these people paying attention to the anathemas?
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I'm not disagreeing - but are these people paying attention to the anathemas?

well, this is if I had my way. ethnophyletism would be added (among others) for when a bishop does the full triumph of Orthodoxy service.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm not disagreeing - but are these people paying attention to the anathemas?

My guess is they don't exactly think of themselves as "ethnophylitists".

The Orthodox churches being broken down by nation into autocephalic bodies is not essential to the being of the Church, it's an historical process that only happened relatively recently in history, and perhaps that confuses them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

archer75

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 16, 2016
5,930
4,649
USA
✟253,749.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
well, this is if I had my way. ethnophyletism would be added (among others) for when a bishop does the full triumph of Orthodoxy service.
I mean, that sounds cool to me. I just wonder if it would make any difference to those who espouse these ideas and manage to think they're compatible with Orthodoxy.

I guess I am blessed - my parish has a bunch of immigrant cradles, a bunch of converts (including some Hispanic folks), several African-Americans and several Africans. I don't think anyone would walk in to any service and think "great! a church for white people only!"

At the ROCOR parish I visit sometimes with family, however, I could see someone thinking that, if that's what they were incluned to think. NOT because the clergy and monastics are spouting ethnophyletism, which I really doubt, but because it's a Russian-Slavonic ROCOR parish in an area with plenty of Russian immigrants.

Those who hold such ideas filter everything through them. True, I am a catechumen and am learning. But I don't see in this case why oca.org or the synod site can't do a touch more to make it obvious that cradles Orthodox, inquirers, and converts of all races are welcome. This could be done with a few photographs.
 
Upvote 0

archer75

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 16, 2016
5,930
4,649
USA
✟253,749.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
My guess is they don't exactly think of themselves as "ethnophylitists".

The Orthodox churches being broken down by nation into autocephalic bodies is not essential to the being of the Church, it's an historical process that only happened relatively recently in history, and perhaps that confuses them.
It confused me a bit when I was first looking into Orthodoxy years ago. But still - these websites look very white to me. There are parishioners of various skin-tones and ethnic backgrounds - why not feature them a bit more?

I agree, I doubt they think of themselves that way.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
It confused me a bit when I was first looking into Orthodoxy years ago. But still - these websites look very white to me. There are parishioners of various skin-tones and ethnic backgrounds - why not feature them a bit more?

I think Orthodox on the whole do a good job being welcoming to people of all races. Orthodox have more racial diversity than my own church, which is overwhelmingly white. Mind you, we aren't unwelcoming, and my own congregation is more diverse than average, but we have a lousy time with evangelism in general, so we are a bit of an ethnic ghetto (if you want "northern European" culture, we have it in spades. But its nowhere near as resentful as the alt-right's take on what that means).

One of my favorite Orthodox saints was Moses of the Black. He's a good saint to have in your corner.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
My guess is they don't exactly think of themselves as "ethnophylitists".

The Orthodox churches being broken down by nation into autocephalic bodies is not essential to the being of the Church, it's an historical process that only happened relatively recently in history, and perhaps that confuses them.

no, it's from the canons as early as Nicaea. it's all confusing in the West because of the overlapping jurisdictions due to mass immigration.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I mean, that sounds cool to me. I just wonder if it would make any difference to those who espouse these ideas and manage to think they're compatible with Orthodoxy.

I guess I am blessed - my parish has a bunch of immigrant cradles, a bunch of converts (including some Hispanic folks), several African-Americans and several Africans. I don't think anyone would walk in to any service and think "great! a church for white people only!"

At the ROCOR parish I visit sometimes with family, however, I could see someone thinking that, if that's what they were incluned to think. NOT because the clergy and monastics are spouting ethnophyletism, which I really doubt, but because it's a Russian-Slavonic ROCOR parish in an area with plenty of Russian immigrants.

Those who hold such ideas filter everything through them. True, I am a catechumen and am learning. But I don't see in this case why oca.org or the synod site can't do a touch more to make it obvious that cradles Orthodox, inquirers, and converts of all races are welcome. This could be done with a few photographs.

just remember that our prayers are theological. so the fact that Orthodox are making prayers against the heresy of racism, shows how incompatible it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gzt
Upvote 0