Orthodoxy and Calvinism in Dialogue

buzuxi02

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Yes scripture is tradition as Basil points out about the written tradition and unwritten tradition, both constitute tradition. But the point is many false teachings are derived from those same scriptures.

At one time chiliasm had a loyal following in the early church, but in the end it died out. In other words those that rejected the book of Revelation as canonical scripture were found to hold the Orthodox opinion. And from that point on the book of Revelation was accepted albeit on a deutercanonical level.

Basil wrote that because the laity holds to the ever virginity of Mary that alone is sufficient to prove its truth. A doctrine should obviously not be in disagreement with the written word but thats easy because the Church only allowed into her scriptures those things she already agreed with.
If it was not in agreement with what the bishops always believed it was simply rejected, and in some cases simply rewritten . Some books held regional popularity with things that were unheard of to a bishop hundreds of miles away, eventually that book either went away or was slowly received, the former being the gospel of Peter or the gospel of the egyptians and the latter being the book of Revelation.

But to claim for example that the Eucharist is simply symbolic is a very hard sell. But many groups still utilize the scripture to prove their point.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I always found it hard "to be guilty of the blood and body of Christ" if the bread and wine were not the Lord's flesh and blood.
Indeed - and historically, I don't see how anyone could say that the Early Church (or the Reformers) didn't see it otherwise......

I think it is interesting whenever Reformers speak against the issue in light of what the Reformed heritage actually noted. Martin Luther admitted the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. ..although he taught that the glorified Body of Christ is present in the Eucharist along with the bread and wine - something many others did not like even though the idea of partaking of the BODY/Blood of Christ in fullness was something that was already taught in the early body of believers repeatedly. Of course, although both acknowledge the dogma of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Luther rejected the doctrine concerning the conversion of the earthly gifts (bread and wine) as a philosophical explanation, which has nothing to do with revelation. At the end of the year 1519, Luther still maintained the doctrine of transubstantiation intact. In his Ein Sermon von dem hocwurdigen Sakrament des heiligen wahren Leichnams Christi und von den Bruderschaften, he taught that there is a change of the substance of the bread and wine but emphasizes that it is symbolical of our union with the spiritual body of Christ. ..and this change must be interpreted not only sacramentally but spiritually and is aimed at the change of the natural man by a common life with Christ. Later on, Luther had some changes in thought - and when Luther saw in Zwingli a further threat to the true doctrine of the real presence, he replied in a number of sermons issued under the title Sermon von dem Sakrament des Leibes und Blutes Christi, wider die Schwarmgeister (1526).

It was important to some of the Reformers to maintain understanding how the Lord can be at all places at once is one of the things the early body of believers understood when it came to the Eucharist/COMMUNION and partaking of the Body of Christ - as they knew that it wasn't an issue for believers around the world, in all times and places/eras (from the 1st century to the 17th century to the 21st century) to partake of the ONE Sacrifice that Christ made in light of the fact that the Lord is not bound nor limited by time itself...a temporary construct.

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One of the most beautiful ways in which we commune with the whole Christ is in the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor. 11:17–34). And even for others arguing that Jesus has a human body with all its limitations and therefore his body does not become omnipresent and distributed around the world in the elements, there are still ways of seeing the reality of how we all partake of His body nonetheless whenever we have Communion.

As it is, for the standard argumentation that Christ cannot be present around the world due to how others see his limitations while on Earth, the reality of the matter is that GOD is GOD - and He HAs no limits, nor does Jesus in the present. Christ is not limited to being in Heaven in ONE place only since He has regained all the abilities He had BEFORE He rose from the Grave. ..rising with ALL Power ( Romans 1:4, Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 1-2, etc. )

As Jesus Christ rose from the dead, where is He? Scripture tells us precisely where He is: He is seated at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12). It also informs us exactly what He is doing: when we pray, He intercedes with the Father on our behalf (Hebrews 7:25/iRomans 8:28) - EVERY SINGLE human soul on the planet and who was in existence
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- and we see this, for brief example, in the myriad of ways the Lord has appeared to many in the Muslim world via dreams...thousands coming to Christ every year when the Lord appears to His people in places where the Gospel has been denied. It's not as if the Lord in His resurrected Body needs to somehow take a break/catch his breath
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For His abilities are without limit . Moreover, we know from John 14 that Jesus is preparing a place for you and me in heaven and that one day we will be with Him there (verses 2-3). In the meantime, He is arranging all the events necessary for His return.

The Spirit of Christ was no more physically confined to His human body during the incarnation than He is now. Remember that at His ascension He rose bodily and is seated at the right hand of God the Father. From thence He shall come—bodily—to judge the quick and the dead. In other words, He has not abandoned His humanity, even now that He is glorified. And yet He is present wherever two or three are gathered together in His Name (Matthew 18:20). He is "with [us] always, to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20). And He has promised never to leave us or forsake us (Hebrews 13:5). Scripture expressly affirms that Christ is omnipresent...for when He assumed a human nature He did not have to give up that (or any other) aspect of His divine nature. The reality is that the incarnation was a miracle of addition, not subtraction...as Jesus took on humanity but He did not divest himself of deity.

As Peter Lewis noted best:


We must be very careful here not to imagine, as some have done, that at the incarnation our Lord "left behind" something of his Godhead or its attributes. God exists in the perfection of his attributes. Take away any of his perfections and you no longer have God. You cannot have reduced Godhead. There is God and there is not-God: but there is nothing in-between! . . . In respect of his divine nature our Lord continued even during his incarnate life to fill the heavens and the earth with his power and presence. [The Glory of Christ, 233.]



IMHO, Understanding how the Lord can be at all places at once is one of the things the early body of believers understood when it came to the Eucharist/COMMUNION and partaking of the Body of Christ - as they knew that it wasn't an issue for believers around the world, in all times and places/eras (from the 1st century to the 17th century to the 21st century) to partake of the ONE Sacrifice that Christ made in light of the fact that the Lord is not bound nor limited by time itself...a temporary construct. One of the most beautiful ways in which we commune with the whole Christ is in the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor. 11:17–34). And even for others arguign that Jesus has a human body with all its limitations and therefore his body does not become omnipresent and distributed around the world in the elements, there are still ways of seeing the reality of how we all partake of His body nonetheless whenever we have Communioon.


As John Calvin explained:


[Although] the Word in his immeasurable essence united with the nature of man into one person, we do not imagine that he was confined therein. Here is something marvelous: the Son of God descended from heaven in such a way that, without leaving heaven, he willed to be home in the virgin's womb, to go about the earth, and to hang upon the cross; yet he continuously filled the world even as he had done from the beginning! [Institutes, 2:13:4.]

As Calvin noted in his view we are raised to heaven, where we feed on the whole Christ in His humanity and in His deity. And therefore, we should not neglect the sacrament and the grace it offers.


For THE sacrament of the Lord's supper is a testimony of CHRIST power over the grave. As Paul originally didn't write with Chapter/verse (as that was added later), his writings were originally one flowing document that connected one thought to the next - and it's easy to take what He said in I Corinthians 11 and divorce it from what he noted later on when pointing out the centrality of Christ in the final chapters of I Corinthians. I Corinthians, Chapter 15 is devoted to the Apostle Paul's persuasive argument in favor of Jesus' triumph over death: "Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain: and your faith is also vain" (I Corinthians 15:12-14). In addition to this passage, verses 19 through 21 of the same chapter bring more clarification: "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."

But after the first generations of Reformers passed on, the later generation rose up - and the later generation did not view Eucharist favorably - and from there came evolution of what we see in the MAJORITY of the Protestant world today when it comes to thinking of Eucharist as a negative/disconnected from the Bible. More of this was discussed elsewhere (here, here, here and here).
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I always found it hard "to be guilty of the blood and body of Christ" if the bread and wine were not the Lord's flesh and blood.
I do think it'd be wisdom for others to consider the Eucharist/the concept of DIVINE Connection from the perspective of how the Early Body of Believers saw it when it came to the concept of God's Prescence being manifest (that which is Eternal/WITHOUT limit being simultaneously experienced by that which is Mortal...a mystery). The issue of Real Prescence is no small issue - and for reference, there was more discussion elsewhere on the issue in a thread entitled "What is the Messianic equivalent to the eucharist? - Christian Forums" ....and for more:





To my knowledge...

Transubstantiation came with the Council of Trent - centuries after the concept of REAL Presence which the early body of believers accepted, since that Trent Council was pertaining to Roman Catholicism ....not all other camps within the Body. Byzantine, Syrian, and Coptic Christian writers from the Early Church (many of which were Jewish) on the Real Presence seemed to note the same (best noted in "Eastern “Blind Spot” or “Cross-Pollination”? | Orthocath" .)The Byzantine, Oriential and Coptic Traditions had a differing view and yet seem routinely ignored by many who stereotype anything in the Church - and the average Evangelical believes that the idea of Real Presence dates from the thirteenth century and was one of those “Roman inventions" like many do with Eucharist. The fact that the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist was a universal belief of the Ancient Church is lost on most Evangelicals, often because many of them don’t even know about the Eastern Christian Churches - and many Evangelicals confuse Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, let alone Coptic, Syrian or Armenian Orthodoxy.

And the concept of Real Presence differed from the later concepts of consubstantiation - which is what is held by the Lutherans when they believe a transformation of the elements happen and Christ is physically present....even though it cannot be explained. Real Presence and the issue of transubstantiation get brought up together by others who generally don't know the nuances of the terms - with others saying Christ was not fully present in the act of Communion and saying that to do so would promote cannibalism amongst other things.

Many who argue such tend to be within the Protestant world and react toward that which they see with the actual term "transubstantiation" when it comes to what the Roman Catholic Church described at the Council of Trent. But it seems Ancient Christendom had a view saying Christ in His FULLNESS (Body, Being, Spirit, etc) was somehow there during Communion just as the Lord can be all places at once because of His supernatural ability as God.

It is in the attempt to logically explain how Christ is present that it seems a LOT of misunderstanding can occur - including in making ideologies against others who seem to cross the ideas of others they set up to protect their image of who the Messiah is when in fact they limit Him by keeping out the concept of Mystery. The Early Body of believers (including the Early Fathers) expressed things well when sharing on the issue....as the Fathers looked at the Eucharist in many ways. While primarily the Eucharist was seen in realist means (as a sacrifice and as the literal body and blood of Our Lord) some Fathers also entertained other means of viewing this mystery. Fathers such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen and even at times Augustine of Hippo were more allegorical in their approach and some Protestant apologists point to the symbolism used in the writings of these Fathers (and a few others) and claim that these Fathers did not take the realist view.

However this is a serious error in anachronism because what we call a symbol or figure today is not what the ancients held it to be. As the liberal Protestant scholar Adolph Harnack (who was never fond of the Catholic Church) noted in his work History of Dogma, what we nowadays understand by "symbol" is a thing which is not that which it represents. This is markedly different from the way the ancient Church understood the concept - for according to ancient modes of thought a mysterious relationship existed between the thing symbolized and its symbol, figure or type; the symbol in some sense was the thing symbolized....and regardless of the views, the central thing being that other connecting with Christ in a Literal way in the elements whenever Divine Liturgy/Sacraments went down.

History truly does give the best example by which to see things...
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change (transmutation) of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus.

– St. Justin Martyr First Apology 66
 
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abacabb3

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I appreciate this positive dialogue, as I have said before, I am not necessarily opposed to apostolic succession or even the institutional uniformity of the church. Both of these things are ideal and preferred.

What I want to know is whether EO can take a more traditional view of Soteriology as voiced by the Council or Orange, which in my opinion, just made explicit what was said in the first canon of the Ecunemical Council of Ephesus.
 
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Ignatius21

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What I want to know is whether EO can take a more traditional view of Soteriology as voiced by the Council or Orange, which in my opinion, just made explicit what was said in the first canon of the Ecunemical Council of Ephesus.

Canon 1 of the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus reads:

CANON I.

WHEREAS it is needful that they who were detained from the holy Synod and remained in their own district or city, for any reason, ecclesiastical or personal, should not be ignorant of the matters which were thereby decreed; we, therefore, notify your holiness and charity that if any Metropolitan of a Province, forsaking the holy and Ecumenical Synod, has joined the assembly of the apostates, or shall join the same hereafter; or, if he has adopted, or shall hereafter adopt, the doctrines of Celestius, he has no power in any way to do anything in opposition to the bishops of the province, since he is already cast forth from all ecclesiastical communion and made incapable of exercising his ministry; but he shall himself be subject in all things to those very bishops of the province and to the neighbouring orthodox metropolitans, and shah be degraded from his episcopal rank.

Can you elaborate on what this has to do with anyone's soteriology???

Also, how do you consider the affirmation of Augustinian theology at the second Council of Orange, to be "more traditional" when it's widely acknowledged that Augustine's views were a departure from both eastern and western fathers? If anything, he was less traditional.
 
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abacabb3

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Canon 1 of the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus reads: Can you elaborate on what this has to do with anyone's soteriology???

"the doctrines of Celestius" pertains to Pelagianism. Being that it was Jerome and Augustine defending CHurch orthodoxy versus Celestius and Pelagius, this is a ringing endorsement of Augustinian soteriology.

Also, how do you consider the affirmation of Augustinian theology at the second Council of Orange, to be "more traditional" when it's widely acknowledged that Augustine's views were a departure from both eastern and western fathers? If anything, he was less traditional.

It is my contention that earlier fathers and the Bible teaches the doctrines of grace.

So, it wouldn't be less traditional, and thanks for putting "second", that'd be true.
 
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Ignatius21

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buzuxi02

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"the doctrines of Celestius" pertains to Pelagianism. Being that it was Jerome and Augustine defending CHurch orthodoxy versus Celestius and Pelagius, this is a ringing endorsement of Augustinian soteriology.



It is my contention that earlier fathers and the Bible teaches the doctrines of grace.

So, it wouldn't be less traditional, and thanks for putting "second", that'd be true.


What exactly is this doctrine of grace, that I presume is no longer taught? And what does pelagianism have to do with this topic?

Personally I still don't see much of a difference between calvinism and arminianism as it sounds like semantics. It's also typical of western thinking in that whether one argues in favor of works or faiths, or faith then works somehow its important to one up the other western sect with semantics. In attempting to understand God's mechanism even though the outcome will be the same for both. Its like two people arguing one says 3+1=4 and the other arguing that 2+2=4.
 
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buzuxi02

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"the doctrines of Celestius" pertains to Pelagianism. Being that it was Jerome and Augustine defending CHurch orthodoxy versus Celestius and Pelagius, this is a ringing endorsement of Augustinian soteriology.



It is my contention that earlier fathers and the Bible teaches the doctrines of grace.

So, it wouldn't be less traditional, and thanks for putting "second", that'd be true.


Caelestius held to some strange doctrines, he was more radical than Pelagius and held some radical views that even Pelagius didn't hold to.

As far as the council of Orange it really has no bearing on us as it was a regional council in the west. Looking over its canons I don't see anything objectionable on most of the canons it passed. Now depending on what the latin language was trying to convey at that time there may very well be some objections to some aspects of these canons

Personally I have no problem with us Orthodox being labeled semi-pelagian. Depending on what this 16th century term means , its very possible that significant aspects of semi pelagianism is not heretical in Orthodoxy. It would have to be contrasted with Theosis and St. Maximos the Confessor doctrine of gnomic willing to analyze the differences if any.
 
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Ignatius21

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What exactly is this doctrine of grace, that I presume is no longer taught? And what does pelagianism have to do with this topic?

Having spent about 6 years in Calvinism, I think I can answer this fairly well. Essentially the "doctrines of grace" are synonymous with the "five points" or "TULIP" that summarizes Calvinist soteriology. Usually, though, it boils down to a simpler formula: God is absolutely holy, man is absolutely depraved and seething against God by his very nature, therefore God chose to save some of these by miraculously turning their hearts of stone into hearts that love Him, so that they will be saved. Calvinists hold that these "doctrines of grace" are in fact wonderful, and teach the mercy of God. And they have a point. IF we accept their premise that man is utterly, totally depraved and can do nothing with his will other than freely choose to hate God, then their doctrine of monergistic salvation is in fact gracious, because anything else would mean that nobody is saved, ever.

I don't know enough about Augustine himself to know whether he would have agreed with the much more highly systematized doctrines that followed Calvin, but he did hold to absolute predestination, and a total inability of post-fall man to not sin ("unable not to sin" was the phrase, I believe). While abacabb3 has made his distaste for philsophy known repeatedly, it is an absolute fact (according to both eastern and western scholars that I've read, anyway) that Augustine's doctrines of sin and salvation were inseparably related to his insistence upon absolute divine simplicity, identification of God's essence with his energies, and his Trinitarian views that ultimately led to "double procession" being the Norm for Latin theology. Augustine did not "just read the Bible" and POOF! come up with his doctrine of grace.

What does pelagianism have to do with this discussion? I'm not sure myself, except that abacabb3 has created a false dilemma, a "fallacy of the excluded middle," in which a rejection of Pelagius/Caelestius necessarily equals a "ringing endorsement" of Augustine. This false dilemma was the very matter that was taken to task by St. John Cassian, who demonstrated that both positions had deviated from the traditional understanding of the relationship between God's grace and man's response. Not coincidentally, Cassian is often called the "Father of Semi-Pelagianism" by Calvinist writers. I think "semi-pelagianism" is in fact a rather contrived term, which could just as easily be called "semi-augustinianism," and can cover such a spectrum of belief as to be rather useless as a label. It's usually used as a pejorative. Some stress that "semi-pelagianism" holds that man takes the "first step" toward God, to which God responds with Grace, and then cooperates with man for the rest of the trip--whereas true synergism holds that even man's first step toward God could not happen without God's grace. This latter view is essentially that of Orthodoxy, in which ALL of salvation is synergistic. I believe this to be the position of Cassian...meaning that either (a) he was not the father of semi-pelagianism, or (b) semi-pelagianism isn't what it's accused of being, or (c) most likely, semi-pelagianism is a monster lurking in the closets of Calvinists but doesn't really exist in any concrete form.

Personally I still don't see much of a difference between calvinism and arminianism as it sounds like semantics.

I think you're right. These two positions are like neighbors having a feud across the picket fence. They've been at it for so long, they actually think they're each other's opposites, but they're really nothing more than a 500 year sibling rivalry. This is even more true when you look at the actual writings of Arminius, who was razor-close to Calvin on so many points. I'll add my comment that, although Arminians are considered synergists, their position is still undergirded by a "Western" and "Augustinian" view of God. This is why I believe that Arminianism is ultimately an internally inconsistent form of Protestantism. They want to treat the symptoms of monergism, without understanding its cause.

It's also typical of western thinking in that whether one argues in favor of works or faiths, or faith then works somehow its important to one up the other western sect with semantics. In attempting to understand God's mechanism even though the outcome will be the same for both. Its like two people arguing one says 3+1=4 and the other arguing that 2+2=4.

Well, it's not like the Orthodox don't spend thousands of years quibbling over stuff too... :)

But yes, the outcome of both is exactly the same. One turns right at the traffic circle, and the other turns left, and they meet up again on the other side. But They'll flame each other as heretics on the way.

As far as the council of Orange it really has no bearing on us as it was a regional council in the west. Looking over its canons I don't see anything objectionable on most of the canons it passed. Now depending on what the latin language was trying to convey at that time there may very well be some objections to some aspects of these canons.

Whether it's objectionable has more to do with the underlying premises and assumptions of those who wrote the canons, and these aren't clearly discernable in the canons themselves. All I've read about it, says that the bishops who passed the canons were all strongly augustinian, so I would imagine it's undergirded by Augustinian-style understanding about God's essence and energies, and therefore would not be acceptable in the East...but like you said, it was regional and isn't considered terribly significant by anyone but Calvinists, who in my experience cling to it because it's one of a small handful of signposts that map out what could be construed as an historical path from the early Church, to the Reformation.
 
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abacabb3

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Caelestius held to some strange doctrines, he was more radical than Pelagius and held some radical views that even Pelagius didn't hold to.

As far as the council of Orange it really has no bearing on us as it was a regional council in the west. Looking over its canons I don't see anything objectionable on most of the canons it passed. Now depending on what the latin language was trying to convey at that time there may very well be some objections to some aspects of these canons

Personally I have no problem with us Orthodox being labeled semi-pelagian. Depending on what this 16th century term means , its very possible that significant aspects of semi pelagianism is not heretical in Orthodoxy. It would have to be contrasted with Theosis and St. Maximos the Confessor doctrine of gnomic willing to analyze the differences if any.
I just don't think semi-pelagianism is biblical or traditional. To quote myself:

“Orthodoxy is not monergist and doesn’t see monergism in the Scriptures nor the Fathers but rather sees a strong sense that salvation requires human assent and cooperation, i.e., “work out your salvation with fear and trembling,” that we are “co-laborers” (synergoi) with God (literally what the Scriptures say in 1 Cor. 3:9 and 6:1).”

First, you left out the next sentence in Philippians 2 that says “work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”

Why did you not complete the sentence?

I have seriously read the Bible and some of the church fathers (I am sure not as exhaustively as you) and I have honestly come to the conclusion that monergism (as it is coined today) was the default mode of thinking.

I happily concede to you, are we in reality talking about synergism? Yes. Augustine makes this exceedingly clear. Our own experience does as well. We know we have free will.

However, God begins the work of changing our will from a carnal to a spiritual mind, and then He guides believers by His Holy Spirit. So, God in all ways is both the “author and perfecter of our faith” (Heb 12:2). So, we cooperate to a degree, but God holds our hand throughout the whole process and leads us forward. This is why we are “new creations in Christ Jesus,” we are not the same men anymore.

For example, let me list the following quotes to show how for 550 years, thought on this matter remained unchanged in the church:

__
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, [e]combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But [f]a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually [g]appraised.15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 cor 2:12-16)

Let not then any one deceive you, as indeed you are not deceived, inasmuch as you are wholly devoted to God. For since there is no strife raging among you which might distress you, you are certainly living in accordance with God’s will. I am far inferior to you, and require to be sanctified by your Church of Ephesus, so renowned throughout the world. They that are carnal cannot do those things which are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual the things which are carnal; even as faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. But even those things which you do according to the flesh are spiritual; for you do all things in Jesus Christ. (Ignatius, Chap 8, Epistle to the Ephesians)

If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, “The will is prepared by the Lord” (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13). (Canon Four, Second Council of Orange)

__

So, the agreement is that natural man cannot choose God. To quote even the RCC’s 1994 catechism: “The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’[Matthew 4:17]. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high.”

To me, the conclusion is inescapable: God controls the destiny of man if it is He that controls whether He can even believe.

“Where Calvinist monergism parts ways from that is that it teaches that God does not give that grace to respond to all men. You won’t find Orange teaching that God gives that grace only to some.”

I am very happy that you brought up this point, because this is where both sides begin with orthodoxy and then one necessarily splits off into heterodoxy.

My opinion is that the default presumption in Scripture and the preponderance of the fathers, because I am yet to read anything that shows otherwise, is that there is no existence of “common grace” that all men essentially have been blessed so that they are predisposed towards both belief and unbelief, and now it is up to them to go one way or the other. If you can find that in the Bible and the Fathers, I can be persuaded.

However, this is a qualification that Arminians, (and I presume) Catholics and EO add. The Bible, Ignatius, and the Councils simply state that those who are carnal simply cannot believe and that anyone who does believe does so by the grace of God. Obviously, the Pelagians taught that belief was purely an act of will. Now, you may not “officially” teach that, but what you seem to have is a contrived paradigm that is exactly the same. “Yeah, God prepares all men’s hearts so that they can believe, so the onus is on them to choose.”

This “onus” however is not found in the Bible nor the Fathers. To me, it seems to be a paradigm added in the middle ages. This is why the RCC seems to grudgingly concede God’s role in salvation metaphysically, but for all practical purposes will assert that man chooses his own destiny by default. It is practical Pelagianism, with the existence of original sin added to it.
 
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abacabb3

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What does pelagianism have to do with this discussion? I'm not sure myself, except that abacabb3 has created a false dilemma, a "fallacy of the excluded middle," in which a rejection of Pelagius/Caelestius necessarily equals a "ringing endorsement" of Augustine

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abacabb3

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What does pelagianism have to do with this discussion? I'm not sure myself, except that abacabb3 has created a false dilemma, a "fallacy of the excluded middle," in which a rejection of Pelagius/Caelestius necessarily equals a "ringing endorsement" of Augustine.

I wrote a reply and the site deleted it. Briefly put, the Council of Carthage in 418 preceded the 3rd ecunemical council, and the first canon of the latter council directly addresses the issue in the Council of Carthage. Then, no coincidentally, the second council of orange reiterates (in even stronger language) Augustinian soteriology.

So, either the 3rd ecunemical council occurred in a vacuum and the councils of carthage and orange are wrong, or there is something majorly missing or twisted in modern EO and RCC soteriology.

COncerning Pelagianism, please see the post above.
 
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"the doctrines of Celestius" pertains to Pelagianism. Being that it was Jerome and Augustine defending CHurch orthodoxy versus Celestius and Pelagius, this is a ringing endorsement of Augustinian soteriology.



It is my contention that earlier fathers and the Bible teaches the doctrines of grace.

So, it wouldn't be less traditional, and thanks for putting "second", that'd be true.
A lot of the terms that were developed seem to be said by many after the fact when it comes to seeing what Augustine actually advocated and what other systems held to later on.

And on the issue, as said elsewhere, I wonder why it so often seems to be a matter of pitting Pelagianism (or Synergism ) and Monergism against one another when the dynamic of mystery seems to indicate that there are aspects of both which are present and cannot be explained - the concept of truth held in tension.

And I sometimes wonder if damage has been done by having the terms developed long after the Early Church developed and then trying to fit thoughts only into those categories. Some feel that monergism is good at preserving God's sovereignty where synergism is good at preserving God's love - but it doesn't have to be that way. Seeing some of the views in the Early Church on aspects of universal reconcilliation and God's inclusiveness with love, it seems God wills to save everyone (the best of Arminianism) and yet God gets what God wants (the best of Calvinism).)

And with God's nature being love (I John 4) - love that GAVE itself for the world (John 3:15-18) as well as those of who were elect (I John 5) - it seems God would be the one to examine and part of examination is understand His right to not make sense. God doesn't have to make sense since he made sense....the Mercy of God is a complicated and nuanced matter - as said best on Ancient Faith Radio on salvation (similar to conversations from before here, here, here and here/ here ).

I understand how many see Orthodoxy as a means of synergism - but it does seem that there are other views out there. I'd definitely be for a Third Party dynamic (or excuse the term, "monergistic synergism" :))..and even with the Protestant world, it seems it's often a mixed matter. As another noted best:

The standard Protestant view is monergism with respect to justification: God alone renders us just or righteous in his sight, without our co-operation. But most Protestants would add that sanctification is a co-operative enterprise in which our will and work have a necessary role to play, working together with the grace of God. So most Protestants are monergists about justification but synergists about sanctification. And since justification by faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation, most Protestants are also monergists about salvation.​

They did a good review in the article on how not even the Protestants like Luther or Calvin believed in ABSOLUTE monergism - and there were differing flavors of Augustinian thought.
 
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I appreciate this positive dialogue, as I have said before, I am not necessarily opposed to apostolic succession or even the institutional uniformity of the church. Both of these things are ideal and preferred.

What I want to know is whether EO can take a more traditional view of Soteriology as voiced by the Council or Orange, which in my opinion, just made explicit what was said in the first canon of the Ecunemical Council of Ephesus.
If interested,


There's an interesting ministry that does a lot of addressment on Calvinism - from the perspective of a former Calvinist - from a myriad of angles.

 
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abacabb3

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And on the issue, as said elsewhere, I wonder why it so often seems to be a matter of pitting Pelagianism (or Synergism ) and Monergism against one another when the dynamic of mystery seems to indicate that there are aspects of both which are present and cannot be explained - the concept of truth held in tension...And since justification by faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation, most Protestants are also monergists about salvation.

In my own blog, I made clear that synergism is the more correct term, but God is at all times the initiator and the perfecter of faith. So man cooperates, but he cooperates with a new will that he did not have before, a will blessed by the Spirit.

Furthermore, because salvation is by faith, good works do not justify a man. It should be noted that real faith does contain works and they are not separated. So, justification is by grace through faith, not by works so no one may boast. But those who are saved WILL do the good works that God has prepared for them before the foundations of the universe were set.
 
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Calvinists to over-emphasize God's aspects of God's sovereignty and predestination, much as all of us "orthodox" Christians put too much emphasis on the Trinity. We should want to emphasize ideas to the same degree they were emphasized in Scripture.
Very true - and with Calvinists, I do think that some of the arguments could be strong er when they over-emphasize certain aspects of God's Sovereignty and Predestination. The General arguments it seems many Calvinists tend to make are the following:
1. All people are fallen into sin, and could never seek the true God apart from his mercy and revelation to us.

2. All have sinned, and fallen short of the Glory of God...none deserves his mercy.

3. The Bible says in multiple places that we are not to boast in ourselves, or anything we do or have--we are to boast only in God.

4. The Gospel is preached to all men without distinction.

5. Some accept and repent and are saved; others reject and persist in their sin, and are damned.

But after that comes what is the big reveal:
If one man accepts while another rejects, then something must account for the difference between them.

Essentially, there is either something about the first man that is more deserving of God's grace; or he is more intelligent; or he is more righteous; whatever it is, he can boast that he was somehow "better" than the other man, and thus he can boast in himself and not only in God.

The other option, of course, is that the entire thing is in God's predestined plan, and God chose that the first man would freely choose to accept the Gospel, and the second would not, all to his own Glory. Basically, the difference is that the first man was elected by God for salvation, and the second was not. But both men are equally sinful, equally undeserving, and equally worthy of condemnation--thus the first man can boast ONLY in God.

This leaves others with a bit of a trapped scenario: Either you admit that you are somehow righteous in and of yourself (which you can't), or you admit that Calvinism is right.


For me, I grew up having many friends who were Calvinists - as I attended a high school which was predominately Reformed/Calvinistic even though it was "non-denominational" in name. And every day (or at least every other day), there were debates going on between teachers/students on how men were saved - with many of the teachers pushing their view on the students that the argument you presented was the BIBLICAL model. One of my closest brothers/friends who was also my coach/teacher did this often - being determined to get me to become Reformed.....and although I saw merit in some of what he noted, it always seemed incomplete. I was glad for others who were Reformed Charismatic (i.e. John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Sam Storms in his ministry, etc.) - all of whom I grew up with and have supported many times (more shared here and here)..but with some of the "Big Reveal" punchlines they'd offer, I just couldn't get down with it...

What happened every time when they'd argue correctly till they got to the "Big Reveal" was that their arguments contained bad inferences, i.e. inferences where the premises don’t give adequate support for the conclusion drawn and can certainly be called fallacious. The nature of arguments that commit fallacies of relevance/ rely on premises that aren’t relevant to the truth of the conclusion - irrelevant appeals....

It'd be like arguing that "Presidents have been elected to power" (true fact) and then saying "Presidents are called to use power wisely/can be voted out if corrupt" (also true) - but then jumping to claim "Therefore, the current president I disagree with is false/corrupt and deserves to be kicked out - and either you support that or you support corruption!!!" (100% FALSE)........for true facts were intentionally used to create a false scenario that left out a myriad of other factors - and assumed a conclusion that was never shown.

Just because men are to boast in God's Mercy and not themselves does not logically mean that men's actions are of no consequence to the Lord - just like it's the case that a child can be called not to forget how the kindness of their parents raising/training them enables them to live righteous in the present (i.e. learning manners, having funding to eat/have a roof over their heads, prayer, etc.) - and yet that doesn't mean parents assume the child isn't able to choose right and wrong and thus "boasting pridefully" when a child notes his own responsibility.....or that the child can say his actions in the good (when taking note of them) are "selfish" because he takes responsibility for them as the parents desire.

Additionally, when many have done the "All men are not good a part from the Lord!!", there seems to be a good bit of forgetting how God's grace goes to ALL mankind - saved and unsaved - and no one is able to do righteously without His mercy anyhow and yet there are still levels of things which can only be accessed when man chooses to appreciate the Mercy of the Lord....and make a choice they will give account for (more in Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented? - #500 /#501 ).

This is something I always had issue with whenever many in Calvinism would go from what Romans 3 said - and claim they were simply focused on the text - and yet they ignored the entire PRECEDDING commentary that followed it from Paul when he talked on choosing to become a Slave to righteousness (Romans 12) ....and that also included every other book Paul wrote BEFORE he wrote Romans (near the end of His life) and the testimony of Acts when he made plain that others chose to either trust in the Lord or not - with salvation being made available for all and men needing to prove their salvation by their deeds - from Acts 13 to Acts 26 and many other places. Paul didn't just write paragraphs - but he wrote LETTERS and those letters had a pre-existing context.

And this also goes for forgetting what Jesus noted - the one Paul pointed all things to - and seeing what He said which takes dominance:
Luke 13

Repent or Perish

13 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Pilate had apparently placed to death some Galileans as they were offering worship sacrifices in Jerusalem. No explanation of the reason was given. THey had perhaps trangressed a Roman Law prompting the respons from the notoriously hard-hearted Pilate. Since their theology attributed individual suffering to individual sin, the Jews interpreted the fate of the Galileans as God's punishment of their guilt. This view of God's activity is known as Retribution Theology......and with that in mind, one sees how Jesus transfered the meaning of these incidents to the spiritual sphere. He does not deal with a Retribution Theory (similar to what occured with many concerning Hurricane Katrina and many saying it was of the Lord as JUDGEMENT). He instead points to the Lord and urgent demand of the present--that unless you repent, you will perish.

In the Jewish world, it was well understood that salvation was a relationship - with the Lord often responding to what men did or didn't do - and rabbis were trained on that. To ignore that alongside Biblical history preceding it (the concept of First Reference where you see what was said originally since it gives a context of how to interpret things later)...that would not be arguing consistently. And taking the text/loading it with a host of other assumptions without proving them has always seemed to be a matter of inconsistent logical argumentation.

And yes, there are clear examples of where the Lord influenced the hearts of others to do as He desired - like King Cyrus of Persia being deemed "God's Servant" and influenced (as the Lord does with kings at times) to be favorably inclined toward the Jewish people when he helped them come home AFTER the exile. But that does not mean all who do wrong are those who were NEVER chosen or called of the Lord - that'd be arguing based more so on lack of evidence and inferring things from present facts that are not there.

The views on men who die in sin being "destined to sin" is no different than arguing as many do in Islam when saying "All is as God Wills it" with a fatalistic view of the world done in order to honor the Lord/make Him seem Supreme when it simply leaves other categories existing that make it out as if God is also responsible for the acts of men since they had no choice - and there are many struggles they cannot get past when they marry foreknowledge with human freedom.

As said best elsewhere (for a brief excerpt) :
It seems to be a widespread Protestantism notion, born of their reaction to Roman Catholicism, that any and all “free-will” actions by man in receiving the gift of salvation (or any grace from God) is by definition “meritorious” – earning of God’s favor, and a “good work” that man adds to the work of Christ. But such notions and regard for human actions are altogether foreign to the theological history of the Church for at least the first 1200 years. Helpless humanity no more merits the grace of salvation by receiving Christ – than a helpless soul dying of thirst in the desert “merits” life by his “good work” of drinking water brought and mercifully offered to him while dying.
There are other places which have done an excellent job of tackling what it is that you noted - and if interested, one can go here to the following:


 
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