Orthodox Soteriology?

[ArmyMatt]

Believing that the will didn't fall, as if the will was something other than a component of human nature.

indeed, that's why it's heresy

 

[hedrick]

I hope I am not completely heretical in the following, but I have never seen a "conflict" between so called "predestination" and free will.

Since God "sees" His creation from outside, and time, change and causality are all features of creation and they are not attributes of God, of course there is a difficulty of comprehension for us here. We do, however, crawl along the celluloid and experience it frame by frame whereas He has the whole reel in His hands so to say. And we know that, in our sequential reference, we DO have free will, free choice. Timed language makes no sense here, but one could equally say "our choices already happened" from the perspective of God, or that God has "foreknowledge" but I believe both ways of saying it are equally meaningless. Because in our frame of reference these things haven't happened, and we are given foreknowledge only in exceptional and carefully considered situations. And even then, it is not the immutable foreknowledge that God has, but rather potentiality - see Jonah.

This is not such an absurd thought. Physics can be interpreted to say that if a photon were conscious (which it is not), then in a way, it has already experienced the entirety its own existence, and presuming it is not absorbed or transformed along the way then it is already "at the end of the world" because for said photon there is no sequential time. But from our reference, the photon is moving and exists in our time. When it lands on your retina, the photon from that distant star, for you, had been travelling for millions of years, but for it no time has passed at all. I'm not comparing God with a photon, God forbid, I am just saying that accounting for frames of reference is important at all levels and extreme frames of reference exist even here on earth as it were, let alone when we're talking about Heavens.

I do not understand these things, and I genuinely do not think I could, but I submit this passage from St. John of Damascus for discussion:
"The Deity, then, is quite unchangeable and invariable. For all things which are not in our hands He hath predetermined by His foreknowledge, each in its own proper and peculiar time and place. And accordingly the Father judgeth no one, but hath given all judgment to the Son. For clearly the Father and the Son and also the Holy Spirit judged as God. But the Son Himself will descend in the body as man, and will sit on the throne of Glory (for descending and sitting require circumscribed body), and will judge all the world in justice." (An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, emphases mine)

To me this implies that Christ will be judge in a state that experiences sequential time, therefore in Christ's reference the concept of "our choices" is meaningful.

I also corroborate this: "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36 -- which implies to me that it is possible and scriptural to infer these things.

This dual perspective is what Reformed writers mean by compatibilism, though your idea may not quite agree with their concept of predestination. However I won’t complicate things by asking you to deal with a Lutheran and Reformed theology at the same time.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

This dual perspective is what Reformed writers mean by compatibilism.

Isn't it better to look to Christ in the Sacraments, instead of attempting to figure out how God operates? For example, if you wish to be one of the Elect, be baptized. If you wish to persevere, attend Church; partake of the Eucharist.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Luther was fluent in Hebrew, Latin and Greek. The similarities are due to a common patrimony.
I disagree with at least two main assertions in the article. But I won't argue further. Thanks though.

Idk. I have heard Luther got a lot of influence from the Orthodox Church, though.

Martin Luther’s Confession of Orthodox Christianity - Become Orthodox
What did the reformers think about the Eastern Orthodox Church?

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

Luther was fluent in Hebrew, Latin and Greek. The similarities are due to a common patrimony.
I disagree with at least two main assertions in the article. But I won't argue further. Thanks though.

It’s okay. I don’t really try to debate. Sometimes that gets the better of me (just look at my post history! lol)
I’m not really a smart person but I know how to find things (especially online). If that makes sense? Cause I’m a librarian who specializes in digital research.
It’s my passion to hunt things down online lol
So I just find it easier to link articles that rebuttal the debate or answer the questions because it’s always worded better than I could ever explain.

God bless.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

A librarian, wow

It’s okay. I don’t really try to debate. Sometimes that gets the better of me (just look at my post history! lol)
I’m not really a smart person but I know how to find things (especially online). If that makes sense? Cause I’m a librarian who specializes in digital research.
It’s my passion to hunt things down online lol
So I just find it easier to link articles that rebuttal the debate or answer the questions because it’s always worded better than I could ever explain.

God bless.

 

[SingularityOne]

 

[SingularityOne]

 

[Lukaris]

'natural instincts'?

Yes, in the positive sense to do what is right in another writing St. Maximos says (for ex.) when we treat each other according to the golden rule.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

That makes sense. But, if, 'The intellect has both the authority and the power to follow or resist whatever it wishes to', is our intellect unfallen?

Yes, in the positive sense to do what is right in another writing St. Maximos says (for ex.) when we treat each other according to the golden rule.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Thank you. I'll watch them tomorrow.

 

[SingularityOne]

Thank you. I'll watch them tomorrow.

You’re welcome

 

[ArmyMatt]

That makes sense. But, if, 'The intellect has both the authority and the power to follow or resist whatever it wishes to', is our intellect unfallen?

no, because the intellect should only (freely) follow the good without deliberation. the fact that our intellects do deliberate show that they are fallen as well.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Ah, gnomic will. So we are free to choose perfection?

no, because the intellect should only (freely) follow the good without deliberation. the fact that our intellects do deliberate show that they are fallen as well.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ah, gnomic will. So we are free to choose perfection?

yep, by God's grace.

 

[Lukaris]

That makes sense. But, if, 'The intellect has both the authority and the power to follow or resist whatever it wishes to', is our intellect unfallen?

It is by grace though that it does what is right ( Ephesians 2:8-10) it is our disposition, conscience etc. in which we rebel or cooperate but God is our judge ( Romans 2). The error of Pelagianism is in which grace is denied & free will given the power. Look at John 3:16-21, the Lord provides possibility for anyone to come to the light or choose darkness. Then notice in John 5:22-30 the final determination of who has done good or bad. Surely, the Christian should already know this whereas non believers can range from downright blasphemers to those who just may not ultimately know the truth ( John 18:38, John 14:6, Matthew 7:1, Matthew 7:12 etc.).

 

[abacabb3]

This series of articles may help:

The Orthodox view of justification in the Scriptures
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.c...trine-of-justification-the-biblical-teaching/

The Orthodox view of justification according to its councils and fathers:
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.c...ication-the-patristic-and-conciliar-teaching/

The Orthodox view of justification compared and contrasted with Roman Catholicism and Protestantism:
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.c...n-versus-roman-catholicism-and-protestantism/

In short, the Orthodox believe that grace is actually God, not merely God's favor. So Grace=experiencing union with God's energies and co-energizing with God. In English, we usually say "operation" as in "cooperation."

The difference in that one issue creates all the Western deviations in the doctrine of justification.

Interestingly, it also creates a lot of confusion over original sin, as some believe Orthodox due not believe this, though canonically the Church has constantly asserted that doctrine. In short, Orthodox believe not in an inherited guilt of Adam's specific sin, but the inheritance of a sinful condition that comes from Adam which creates a will that does not reflexively do God's ("concupiscence" in the West) which do to not cooperating with God's energies, which uphold all life, creates increased distorted willing and death.

So, it is ironic, but the energy-essence distinction is really the central issue at play.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

This series of articles may help:

The Orthodox view of justification in the Scriptures
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.c...trine-of-justification-the-biblical-teaching/

The Orthodox view of justification according to its councils and fathers:
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.c...ication-the-patristic-and-conciliar-teaching/

The Orthodox view of justification compared and contrasted with Roman Catholicism and Protestantism:
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.c...n-versus-roman-catholicism-and-protestantism/

In short, the Orthodox believe that grace is actually God, not merely God's favor. So Grace=experiencing union with God's energies and co-energizing with God. In English, we usually say "operation" as in "cooperation."

The difference in that one issue creates all the Western deviations in the doctrine of justification.

Interestingly, it also creates a lot of confusion over original sin, as some believe Orthodox due not believe this, though canonically the Church has constantly asserted that doctrine. In short, Orthodox believe not in an inherited guilt of Adam's specific sin, but the inheritance of a sinful condition that comes from Adam which creates a will that does not reflexively do God's ("concupiscence" in the West) which do to not cooperating with God's energies, which uphold all life, creates increased distorted willing and death.

So, it is ironic, but the energy-essence distinction is really the central issue at play.

I found the 2nd link especially agreeable. Yes, in fact Lutherans and Rome are both operating under the idea of merit. For Lutherans, merit is the righteousness of Christ. This definitely colors things as I was just telling @ArmyMatt. Let think about this more. I'll be back soon.

 

[abacabb3]

I found the 2nd link especially agreeable. Yes, in fact Lutherans and Rome are both operating under the idea of merit. For Lutherans, merit is the righteousness of Christ. This definitely colors things as I was just telling @ArmyMatt. Let think about this more. I'll be back soon.

Army Matt knows his stuff. The third link is probably most important once the Scriptural and traditional basics are understood, that's where it comes all together.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I found the 2nd link especially agreeable. Yes, in fact Lutherans and Rome are both operating under the idea of merit. For Lutherans, merit is the righteousness of Christ. This definitely colors things as I was just telling @ArmyMatt. Let think about this more. I'll be back soon.

@abacabb3 ,

From the links:

1) Salvation is viewed strictly is a gift for being judged as righteous by virtue of having faith in Christ.

Lutheran view: we are not judged as righteous by virtue of having faith, but by virtue of Christ alone, whom faith runs to and clings to.

2) one is not saved, then one has faith which justifies an individual and after that point in time one is sanctified after that specific incident of justification.

Lutheran: we are not justified in a single once for all moment but neither is justification a process. We are justified through baptism and confession (we can fall into mortal sin). In baptism and confession, we are declared not guilty, cleansed of our sin and regenerated. Apart from the sacraments, Lutheran justification makes no sense.

3) because of this, Christians are simultaneously just yet sinners merely imputed as righteous but in fact not yet righteous.

Lutheran response: we are in fact righteous. The declaration actually does what it declares, it is creative. So when God declares us worthy we are truly worthy. A forgiven sinner is no longer a sinner.

All this however relies on a Western notion of propitiation. If someone has a theology where God's wrath or honor is not in view, then there is no need for most of this.