(Orthodox) Russian soldiers engage in systematic rape to prevent women from having babies in future

ValeriyK2022

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From the point of view of reducing the number of victims, negotiations are the best option. But Russia's explanation of why they attacked is such a mess that it's hard to understand what's important to them. From the most modest needs (to create a demilitarized zone in the east of Ukraine so that missiles from the territory of Ukraine could not reach Moscow) and to Napoleonic plans to conquer Poland after the war with Ukraine. And all this is said alternately one thing, then another. So everyone is confused.

If first, is it possible for Ukraine and Russia to withdraw heavy weapons to 300 kilometers of from their state borders? This could be a compromise.

Well, to compensate for the damage caused to the territory of Ukraine, even according to civil laws, it is necessary.

I think that international organizations should start fining Russia for every destruction on the territory of UkraineAnd for the dead and wounded civilians . Then they will not want to launch so many missiles. They also want to have money.
 
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archer75

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From the point of view of reducing the number of victims, negotiations are the best option. But Russia's explanation of why they attacked is such a mess that it's hard to understand what's important to them. From the most modest needs (to create a demilitarized zone in the east of Ukraine so that missiles from the territory of Ukraine could not reach Moscow) and to Napoleonic plans to conquer Poland after the war with Ukraine. And all this is said alternately one thing, then another. So everyone is confused.

If first, is it possible for Ukraine and Russia to withdraw heavy weapons to 300 kilometers of from their state borders? This could be a compromise.

Well, to compensate for the damage caused to the territory of Ukraine, even according to civil laws, it is necessary.
This certainly sounds reasonable to me, Valeriy. What I have bolded in your post above leads me to think that effective negotiations are impossible, although I truly hope I am wrong. The Russian (official) position has changed so many times, and not in small ways. For example, at the very beginning, we read in Russian sources that there were "just a few" of these "Neo-Nazis" who had somehow taken over Ukraine, and that once they were eliminated, everything would be okay. By April, however, we read a different story from RIA Novosti: that the bulk of the population of Ukraine was Nazified and needed to be punished (not for actual crimes, but for "regarding Russia as an enemy").

Various explanations are offered for everything: for example, a hospital is bombed and makes international news. Then we read multiple answers from RF sources:

1) it wasn't really bombed
2) it was actually a military installation so it was good that it was bombed
3) Ukraine bombed it to make Russia look bad

It is this incoherent propaganda (that I am very familiar with in less deadly Russian / post-Soviet contexts) that makes me think that meaningful negotiations are not possible. I do not believe that the RF is a rational actor here, even as far as its own self-interest goes, even as far as its wealthy people go.

But I do hope that that is not the case.
 
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ValeriyK2022

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As for the ROC, their bishops do not justify war crimes. They deny them. Recently, on YouTube, one metropolitan said that Russian soldiers are holy people. It even made me smile. There was a feeling that he was not lying, but mocking his soldiers.
 
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Nick1000

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Even some of Putin's traditional buddies understand that he is dangerous and on the move and cannot be trusted. link below

Putin used Russian troops to prop up the leader in Kazakhstan so Putin figured that he owned him. But then when Putin asked K-stan to send troops to Ukraine they said no. That's your mess. And then, next, Putin asked them to recognize the donbass territories as independent republics. Whereupon, K-stan said "no." That's your mess.

Now K-stan has to fear Putin trying to take them. You know, if you have any Russian speaking people in your country, Putin alleges that God or the voices in his Rice Krispies have directly told him that he owns the country.

Maybe K-stan does not have any people who speak Russian so they do not understand the region as well as Americans who moved there and are now the experts. I don't think so. Maybe K-stan has been a member of NATO and everybody there is just a westerner who cannot possibly understand how the Russia World mind works and all they know is western propaganda. I don't think so.

What is missing for American imports to Russia who arrogantly beat their chest and remind you that they are the best Russian speakers and knowers is that there are/were also 44 million Ukrainians down the road who also know the Ukrainian and/or Russian languages and have multiple, multiple generations of knowledge, pain, tragedy, joys, families, etc. Far, far surpassing anything an American import does. AND YET, it would be the understatement of the decade to say that many/most do not necessarily agree with the American import to Russia view. So, contrary to suggestions- knowledge of the language, culture, and region do not necessarily bring you to the same view toward Putin. Their problem with the Russian state is not that they are not familiar with it, it is the opposite. They have seen this movie before.

Putin entered into an agreement to allow the shipment of grain from southern Ukraine. Then the next day he did missile strikes against the port when the ink on the agreement was not even dry yet. Keep that in mind when negotiating any peace deal with him.

Kazakhstan reportedly boosting defence spending amid ‘Russian ambition’ jitters
Kazakhstan reportedly boosting defence spending amid ‘Russian ambition’ jitters
 
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rusmeister

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I really do agree with a lot of the things you guys complain about, about many of the evils we can agree probably or definitely were committed by the Russian side. We wouldn't even have much of an argument if the historic causes leading up to this were admitted to. My thesis in short is that I remember the '90's and '00's well. If the things I listed had never happened, never been done, there would never have been an annexation or invasion. Communism and Stalinism were dead ducks, derided, with no future. In the '00's in particular, Solzhenitsyn's start had risen to its zenith and they were even starting to teach him in schools. Ukrainian-Russian relations were friendly and there was even talk of a new Slavic alliance, an economic federation, though Ukrainization had a dimming effect on that. I remember. I was already in my 30's and early 40's, not a kid, and had a good grasp of those things. I remember, even in 2012, on a train ride through Ukraine, the relative decency and professionalism of Ukrainian as well as Russian border guards and then still-friendly disposition of the people. In the '90's, NATO itself seemed like a dead duck for a short time, until they lit up the Yugoslav conflict to give them something to pretend to do and justify the continued massive funding. NATO expansion and Ukrainization WERE pushed, and so these things developed out of that. I'm saying that if they had not been pushed, if they had been extinguished as they should have been, we would not now be in this situation. That's the kind of thing that the exclusive demonization of Russia refuses to admit. I haven't seen any such admission here at all. And yet they had a decisive effect on fanning the flames of a defunct NATO and Communist Party, and nostalgia for the Soviet Union. I agree on Russian oligarchs getting rich while the poor remained poor. I agree with you guys on a lot. I don't see any acknowledgement of that, as if one day Russians decided to do evil...just because, with no basis for any popular support.
 
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Nick1000

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The West/Americans are not going to interfere with any peace settlement that is acceptable to the Ukrainians. That is probably the good news.

The more problematic news is that the West rightfully considers sanctions against Russia now to be a separate issue from Ukraine. Ukraine may want to settle out in some way but the West sees Putin's long range plans and has been sufficiently threatened that it wants to keep Russia weakened as much as possible- because it abuses any power it has. Putin however does not care about his own troops or Ukrainians and is only interested in getting rid of the sanctions.

Everyone understands that sanctions are also hurting the west and everyone knows that Russia can not be brought down with sanctions. But their economy and the abusive power that flows from it can at least be reduced to that of thirty years ago- and is well on its way already. I guess this is what "returning to Soviet glory" looks like for Vlad.

What a mess.
 
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rusmeister

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@rusmeister A few clarifications, not really arguments.

1) Re: the title of the thread, I intended a kind of telegraphic style such as I have seen used on many other posts of news items. The sense I intended was "[Some] RF soldiers engage in systematic rape," not "High Command ordered this across the board." Soldiers occupying a town and butchering helpless residents, while also engaging in (locally) regular and planned gang rape is the horrible idea here. That doesn't mean that all Russian soldiers, or even a majority, are doing this.

2) Sometimes your style on these posts seems to me to suggest that I personally am responsible for the actions of NATO, or that my personal admission of fault will lead to a sweet and cute resolution. I'm sure you don't mean that, or believe it, but I admit that it throws me sometimes.

3) I believe (I do not expect you to believe, and do not say that every person of good will must believe...I believe) that Russia is ALREADY subjugated to a criminal regime that can no longer be called a government even in jest. I believe that a swift defeat of Russia's war goals is LESS LIKELY to lead to the total destruction of Russia as a state and LESS LIKELY to lead to a "widespread" (as if it is not already widespread) war, such as we might call WWIII.

4) I do not believe that admission by "the West" of any given wrongdoing (and I believe that the countries generally referred to as "the West") have engaged in many evil and otherwise wrong actions on the world stage and at home) would have any positive result for Ukraine or anyone. I believe it would simply become a smug bit of propaganda for the RF.

Again, I believe that Russia is already subjugated. So my understanding of the situation does not have "subjugation of Russia" as a fantasy to be hoped for. It has "subjugation of Russia" as the present situation, and the end of that subjugation as the number 2 goal here (goal number 1, of course, is saving Ukraine). The ROC in Russia (most hierarchs, synod, HH Patriarch Kirill, NOT every parishioner, NOT every presbyter, NOT every reader) is in effect a cheerleader for what you and I both agree is evil. Promoting and condoning horrific sins, unimaginable to those of us on the outside. I believe that allowing the continued subjugation of Russia, and the poisoning of the ROC from within as part of that subjugation, is likely ultimately to lead to the destruction of Russia and the destruction of the ROC as a jurisdiction.

In other words, because I do not believe that anything but sound defeat on the battlefield will "stop" the criminal regime that controls the resources of the RF, I believe that such defeat is the only way to
a) save Ukraine (most important)
b) stop Russia from falling into deeper destruction than it saw even during the Civil War
c) prevent the destruction, possibly even on paper ("that jurisdiction doesn't exist anymore") of the ROC
d) be reasonably sure to prevent a widespread WWIII.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but there it is.

I appreciate this, and see quite a bit of common ground.

On your points,
1) Understood, and fair enough.
2) I don't think that we personally are going to have anything like a major effect on these events. I think we both recognize, though, that a pebble can start an avalanche, and if enough people on the ground can be convinced of common truth, then it will overcome whatever lies are imposed from the rulers of this world.
3) I agree in part to the subjugation you describe. I do NOT agree that the Russian forces CAN be swiftly and soundly defeated, as long as they can imagine in their own minds any likeness to the generation of WW2, of those who resisted Napoleon and Hitler. Thus, I see the idea that they CAN be so defeated as certainly leading to a larger-scale war. Therefore I urge diplomacy and to stop seeing NATO as a cure-all.
4) I do think that that COULD be used by Russian propaganda. It is less the admission as such, and more the cessation of the policies pushing NATO eastward. The organization has always had only one purpose and its expansion has been the great evil that precipitated this.

I DO think you right that the submission of the Church to secular political goals will have a really bad effect on the fairly recently reborn Russian Church. I just don't think the West can win this proxy war. I don't think the Russians will "win" in a meaningful sense, either. Making enemies out of your neighbors is not likely to produce any good fruit.
 
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archer75

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@rusmeister Fair enough. We agree about many things and disagree somewhat about what is more likely to serve to lessen or end the horrors. So it goes.

Russia certainly cannot "win," because the goals of the war are evil. Getting to "do" your sin on a large scale is not winning. Losing, rather, would be closer to winning.

Russia is humiliated by its own government. People afraid to talk to their friends in other countries -- even about personal topics? Just that alone is madness. Only a kind of widespread Stockholm syndrome can help people survive this.
 
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Nick1000

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Russia likes to tout its WW2 and Napoleonic days as signs that it is invincible and can tough out anything.

In reality, Russia got bogged down in AFG trying to fight a stupid war that really was a war of choice rather than necessity. Eventually the bodies kept coming back home and impacted their decision to withdraw. And the number of soldiers that Russia has lost in Ukraine is already vastly greater than all their years of AFG combined. Putin is playing games with the numbers lost but people know the scoop except for the trance-state Putin lovers. Putin is playing games to avoid a general mobilization but people know that all those games and recruiting schemes that are not working out will only work for so long.

Yes, the U.S. had problems in AFG too, so we can get that out of the way but that only helps us to see the hole that the Russians are in. Russia and the U.S. were there as part of wars of choice. The Taliban and the Ukrainians are/were fighting existential wars of necessity so they fight differently.

Putin and his apologists can keep trying to convince others that WW2 and Napoleonic Wars are the model here. It is not. It is AFG. The risk of a long slog and grind that the Russian people do not have the stomach for is very high.

Putin just ordered yesterday that every village must produce one more soldier for the front lines. He can play those games and keep throwing money at the poor kids from Siberia but general mobilization is in the air. Then we will see what the Russian people's interest in the war is. It is one thing to watch Russian State TV in Moscow which describes the war and Ukrainians as "cats that must be dewormed" and it is quite another to send one's family member there.

We shall see.

Stop the madness.
 
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Indeed. I try to be an honest chap. Respectfully, Archer, your posts sounded very, very young. They sounded like a kid in his 20's more than a man who has lived over 40 years and has traveled, read, and seen the world for what it really is. The majority of the "Slava Ukraine!" folks I know are young idealists who haven't been "out there."

My experience in life is, to some degree, how Rus frames things. The reality "out in the field" is often not what is told to us by our media. If you listen to the news, especially CNN, MSNBC, PBS, NBC and the gang, you're going to believe that
a) there is never black-on-black violence, only persecution by the white man
b) gay people are all responsible, loving, cute, clean, lovely folks who live monogamously
c) conservatives are all racist pigs
d) anyone who owns a gun is a racist, xenophobic, psychotic lunatic wanting to overthrow the gov't
e) nobody ever has adverse reactions to the Covid vaccine
f) all Middle Eastern countries are deadly dangerous to visit
g) there is no such thing as globalism
h) the West is good, the East is evil
i) abortion is harmless, "health care," responsible, and leaves no ill effects
j) atheists are rational, bright, clear-headed, lucid thinkers opposed to dimwitted religious dullards
k) Christianity is good only when it coincides with Marxism
L) capitalism is pure piggery
m) American history is 100% oppression
n) RUSSIA BAD RUSSIA BAD RUSSIA BAD


When I have traveled to other countries, and I have traveled a great deal, usually the stereotypes or "news" I hear almost never bears truth in real time. I was in Jordan and Israel around the time the U.S. claimed the war was hot and heavy. When I was in Jordan, I actually saw the refugees leaving the country returning to Syria because it was safe and over with. But in our news, nope, war was raging. I've heard all the stereotypes about the "Evil Turks" yet when I was in Turkey recently, I saw zero indication of that. The news tells us that Israel is the "good guys" and Palestinians are these vile terrorists. When I visited Palestine, I saw Christians, ate with them, talked with them, and I walked the streets seeing nothing but a persecuted people walled in covered in shadows from walls taller than something out of a Lord of the Rings film. They have no mobility, no infrastructure, no hope. Barbed wire and claustrophobic absurdity is what I saw. They were generally nice folks. When I went to the Wailing Wall, I saw Jews running up to Christians yelling "TAKE THAT CROSS OFFFFF NOOOOOWWW!" Women in our group refused to take off their cross necklaces and were told to get out. Generally speaking, the Israelis were not the nicest folks. Mileage varies, but the media is often clueless.

As a teacher, even in my own district, our union board (that I sit on) claims there is NO CRT being taught anywhere in our district when I know teachers, for a fact, that had to go to war against it on their campus with principals.

There is so much in my life that I have seen that is not what people claim. The media has an agenda, and it's getting worse and worse. You truly have to ask yourself about the bigger picture here than Putin and Russia invading Ukraine. What is the end game you are rooting for? I think, unwittingly, you're rooting for LGBT pride parades across the Ukraine. I think you don't realize the "new sexuality" will come to Ukraine very soon if you get your way (unwittingly, not because you want it, mind you. not accusing you of that!). Have you heard the news that Ukrainian liberal atheist scum activists are lobbying Zelensky, Mr. T-Shirt Boy, to replace a Catherine the Great statue with a statue of Billy Herrington, a PORN STAR? They've said things like, "We want to send a clear message that Ukraine loves and protects the gay community!" Ukraine wants to join the EU, which requires gay pride parades and flaunting an evil, un-Orthodox lifestyle. Sure, Putin has overblown things about Nazis, to be sure, but they're in Ukraine, and they have indeed harassed and killed and plundered Russians. There has also been a systematic attempt to overthrow Russian culture and especially---language, in Ukraine.

I agree with Rus on this stuff in that I wish Putin had not invaded. Or, at the least, he could've invaded Eastern Ukraine and protected the Donbas and just annexed them. The carnage, the bombing, the heavy duty invasion, yes, appalling, sad, depressing, and regrettable. I don't think anyone here, Dorothea, Rus, Prodromos, etc. is happy about this war or dismisses the carnage as "no big whoop." I wish that Putin would've mostly just blustered and sat on the border postering and had gone to the negotiating table, but alas, that didn't occur. He and his inner circle obviously felt NATO in the backyard of Russia as an untenable situation they will never accept....EVER. And very obviously they're wiling to stake it all on this. A lot of people see this as a clash of civilizations.

You have said that Rus has a poisoned mind, words to that effect. Your buddy, Nick, calls anyone thinking differently from him Putin's "boot-lickers" and other nonsense. So, with the hyperbole and passion, you've sounded like a millennial to me, Archer. No disrespect intended, I assure you, but I think you need to realize that Rus isn't given to "mental gymnastics" as you put it in one post. I've known Rus on here for years. I'm VERY sad he and I didn't get to have some coffee together when he visited California recently. I was very serious about meeting him halfway, but he was in a huge rush out of his control. He's a really good man. And the thing is, I've disagreed with him on many occasions and even got downright frustrated, but never have I thought he's a mental gymnast or someone with ill-considered logic. Rus is VERY erudite and rational, steady, and methodical about his beliefs. He gives ideas a great deal of thought and care. If anything, he can surprise you. The only predictable thing about him is his references to CS Lewis and GK Chesterton LOL! But even with those fellows, he uses them to try to think outside his comfort zone, not to create echo chambers.

No one in here is naive about Russia. Putin is a dictator, an autocrat. If anyone believes otherwise, they're abusing the grape late at night in large quantities. But, we can't kid ourselves either---not every country wants a democracy. Russia doesn't have a history of democracy nor is there any indication it works well there or it is desired. Secondly, guys like Alexei Navalny, who easily comes across as fun, "hip," cool, modern, and full of gravitas compared to Putin's former KGB grumpy "boomer" status, is a guy who would usher in a new Russia replete with pride parades, more abortion, maybe some legalized dope, and Western nonsense ideas about free love, polyamory, no-fault divorce in spades, cohabitation, more social media, and feminism. So, which is more dangerous? I would much rather have a beer most likely with Navalny and Obama than Putin and Trump, but this isn't about fun and laughs. It's about Orthodox morality, tradition, and the future.

Nobody here is immune to the chest-puffing blustering saber-rattling of Russia. Medvedev, Peskov, Lavrov, those guys are full of hot air more often than not. No doubt about it. But so is T-Shirt Wonder Boy ex-comedian Zelensky. No person with any real common sense thinks he's not a corrupt goon himself.

You have to ask yourself about the modern liberal Marxist bandwagon, Archer!

The World Economic Forum Creep Commander-in-Chief Klaus Schwab loves Ukraine in this war. The Democratic Party loves Ukraine. The RINO Republicans are passionate Slava Ukraine fans. LGBT groups support Ukraine. Stephen King and idiotic leftwing celebrities and musicians are flocking to Ukraine's side in benefits. Hollywood loves them! Liberal weird Protestant churches love supporting Ukraine.

The same folks who keep supporting globalism, the globohomo agenda, are all-in with Ukraine. Doesn't that give you pause? I'm proudly in a Serbian Orthodox Diocese and firmly stand by my bishop, priest, and clergy. Serbia supports Russia, and with good cause after NATO persecution and demonization by the West.

I would encourage you to lower the emotion, and Nick as well, and maybe listen a bit more. I have found at the height of my passion, I wasn't listening. Not long ago in here, I was at odds with a lot of people about the COVID injection. Now, fortunately nobody in my family grew a tail or sprouted horns or started speaking in Latin spitting up pea soup.....however, Prodromos and some other folks in here had some anecdotes that were pretty compelling as well as some very lucid points that maybe I didn't want to hear at the time. I was taking some of their statements personally because they differed from me in my decision. Rus was one of the people that ruffled my feathers......however, as time goes by I look at the Moderna, Pfizer, and other groups and do see an agenda. And as I delve deeper, I don't trust this bunch. I don't want any more vaccination, personally. I don't begrudge others, but I can see why some of my fellow posters made the points that they made. I was far more emotional than they were in the conversation. And it can cloud logic and reason as well as spiritual decisions. I can see some of Dot's concerns more clearly now that I've let the smoke settle.

The most important thing is to "know thy posters." The folks in here are SOLID. Father Matt is a straight arrow, Rus is a frustrated and tired but intelligent and devout guy who brings a lot to the table, Dot is a careful and skeptical yet prayerful and thoughtful woman with a big heart, Prodromos is a big fan of history and culture and a keen observer. There are so many good folks in here. It's not that anyone is "PRO-WAR," as much as they're sadly saying that there's more to all of this than you might realize. “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” This is the crux of this war. Nobody in here is hoping for this war to drag on. I was praying about it this morning hoping it ends soon. But if it ends, I hope NATO learns that Russia is willing to go to the precipice of hell to keep the West out of their backyard hedges. And if we Americans have become so sanctimonious that we think it's ok to encroach territorially to this point yet you can't do the reverse to us, then perhaps America is reaching its own twilight time. Perhaps we've finally overextended our arrogant hegemony and passion for controlling the world so far that our own ruination isn't far off? We can't pontificate in here about war when no one has invaded more countries and has caused more politicking and intrigue than we have....

I'm glad you've been to Russia, impressed that you speak the tongue (you have one up on me as I only speak English and fluent Spanish and a tiny wee bit of the wife's Tagalog), and are a bit of a Russophile. Please know that our opinion in here is more nuanced than you think. We're not clapping as babies are bombed and thrusting our fists in to the air to the tune of Alice Cooper's "Dead Babies" with glee nor are we armchair idiots.

What we can all agree on is---PRAY for this war to end. I pray for the safety of Ukrainian people and for the morality of Mother Russia's religion to continue as the filth of the EU and the West diminishes in the region. The LGBT religion is the greatest threat to humanity in 2022 that exists. Make no mistake. It is dangerous filth.
By the way, I don't want to leave this hanging: it seemed possible to me that Gurney's question, if I had said "No, never been to either country, rely on CNN for everything" would have been followed up with "Well, then, you don't know anything." Yet my response wasn't followed by "aha, so maybe you do do know a little something and have sources other than CNN, even if I disagree with you." Perhaps this wasn't the purpose, and I'm not putting words in your mouth, or @gurneyhalleck1 's, but it seemed likely to me at the time that that was the rhetorical move.

If it wasn't, I would ask what the (brief) push to switch to Russian was for, and what, if any, answer there is to my statement that I do in fact have non-zero experience with Russia, Russian language, Russian culture, and Russian media sources, and how that answer would have been different if I had said "no, I don't know anything other than what I read on CNN or NPR."
 
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And where are you getting the statistics for Russian casualties? Ukrainian sources? the Pentagon? NATO? The British? Because they all differ wildly.

The Russians seem to have terrible logistics from day one. Using cell phones for communications was idiotic to be sure. Air support was woefully lacking. Tank use was inept and the infrastructure going in was based more on quick attrition than decisive victory. A lot of scorched earth and sloppy tactics seem apparent.

Russia has revealed a weak hand with infantry, tank divisions, and coordinated invasion tactics. Prior to this war they were thought to be an elite fighting force. This invasion has shown their poker hand, and it is weaker than Gandhi during his hunger strike.

That being said, we can't trust A LOT about this war. If you listen to Pravda Ukraina types, it's going to say, "Putin drowns 1,000 kittens and shoots puppies' eyes out" and "150,000 dead Russian troops" and other hyperbolic gobbly-ghuk. Meanwhile, Russia goes on about how they've lost only a few thousand troops, which is EXTREMELY under-reported goofiness.

Look at what the Pentagon/CIA vs. MI6 vs. Ukraine vs. NATO have to say about casualties and it's face-palming. Like Serbia, we'll likely never know the truth, just the Pravda.
Russia likes to tout its WW2 and Napoleonic days as signs that it is invincible and can tough out anything.

In reality, Russia got bogged down in AFG trying to fight a stupid war that really was a war of choice rather than necessity. Eventually the bodies kept coming back home and impacted their decision to withdraw. And the number of soldiers that Russia has lost in Ukraine is already vastly greater than all their years of AFG combined. Putin is playing games with the numbers lost but people know the scoop except for the trance-state Putin lovers. Putin is playing games to avoid a general mobilization but people know that all those games and recruiting schemes that are not working out will only work for so long.

Yes, the U.S. had problems in AFG too, so we can get that out of the way but that only helps us to see the hole that the Russians are in. Russia and the U.S. were there as part of wars of choice. The Taliban and the Ukrainians are/were fighting existential wars of necessity so they fight differently.

Putin and his apologists can keep trying to convince others that WW2 and Napoleonic Wars are the model here. It is not. It is AFG. The risk of a long slog and grind that the Russian people do not have the stomach for is very high.

Putin just ordered yesterday that every village must produce one more soldier for the front lines. He can play those games and keep throwing money at the poor kids from Siberia but general mobilization is in the air. Then we will see what the Russian people's interest in the war is. It is one thing to watch Russian State TV in Moscow which describes the war and Ukrainians as "cats that must be dewormed" and it is quite another to send one's family member there.

We shall see.

Stop the madness.
 
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Nick1000

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Russia continues to fight their dirty and disgraceful war with ethnic minorities and impoverished kids from Siberia and foreign fighters.

Regardless of what the real casualty numbers are, we can be sure that there are not many middle-class kids from Moscow and St. Petersburg amongst them- YET.

We shall see how much the great Russian patriots like this war when it reaches their families.

‘To Kyiv’ emblazoned on new uniform for Russia’s Chechen forces

'To Kyiv' emblazoned on new uniform for Russia's Chechen forces

 
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archer75

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@gurneyhalleck1, hello. Thanks for the extended reply. I will try to address everything I can, but without quoting your post, which I think would make this too unwieldy. I will use many declarative sentences rather than arguing everything at length.

It's okay with me that you thought I sounded younger than I am.

I agree with you that reality is (usually, well, almost always) quite different from what the media serves us. I can't tell you much about the news outlets you mention ("CNN, MSNBC, PBS, NBC and the gang") because I have nothing to do with them. The only time I look for anything like that is when I want a story roughly about something I otherwise believe to be true, and I need a source in English to share with someone or post here. If you think I listen or or read that stuff as "news"...well, I guess then you think so, but I don't. I have no stomach for the ideology or the format. I can't do it. I know generally what they say and that's enough.

Russian (state) media is also nauseating, but I try to keep up because it's not so "in the air" here (except as it penetrates our media space, which it does) and I feel compelled to know what they're saying.

For the record, I don't believe that there is never violence committed by black Americans against other black Americans, I don't believe that all gay people are cute, sweet, and unimpeachable, I don't believe that conservatives are all racist pigs (I witness way less racism among my conservative friends than among my liberal...well, acquaintances), I don't believe that everyone who owns a gun or several is a nut (or even that most are), I don't believe that no one has adverse reactions to the Covid vaccine (or other vaccines), I don't believe that all Middle Eastern countries are deadly dangerous, I do believe there is such a thing as globalism (although I think it's helpful to say what you mean by it before talking about it at length), I don't believe that the West is good and the East is evil, I don't believe that abortion is delightful / health care / harmless to all, I don't believe that atheists are delightful and religious people are dopes, I don't believe that Christianity and Marxism are "compatiable" so I don't believe that Christianity is good only when it overlaps with Marxism because I do not believe Christianity can overlap with Marxism (either the stuff they call Marxism today, or the actual writings of Marx), I don't believe that capitalism is "pure piggery," I don't believe that the history of the US is "100% oppression".

And I certainly don't believe that "Russia bad." I considered moving to Russia and trying to get citizenship or at least long-term residency for some time. When I was younger, I strongly considered going there for higher education, believing it to be better than what I would get in the US (I didn't know much, but I think I was right about that). Much of my life has been spent on Russia. I think I can say honestly that I wish the best for Russia. The government of Russia, however, is not the same as Russia. And the government of Russia cares less for Russia than I do.

I had a friend, a woman who was older than me. No "dating" or flirting or crush element. A true friend! A blessing from God, I believe. I saw her go crazy to the point that her crazy beliefs brought about her death. I can tell you more privately if you want (I don't mean to be cryptic, I just don't want to say that much on the thread). I blame myself for her death. Maybe I shouldn't, but I do. I've talked to a couple priests about it, I pray for her repose. I noticed recently that the way I feel about her is similar to how I feel about Russia. Now, Russia's actions in Ukraine are grievously evil. But if we focus on Russia for a moment, which is where my focus has been for most of my life, then, at least in my understanding, I am watching Russia commit suicide. I don't wish for Russia to commit suicide. I really don't wish for Russia to murder Ukraine.

With my friend, it became impossible to penetrate her crazy beliefs. She surrounded herself with yes-men and went into a world of madness and then died.

Russia is committing suicide. I do not wish for the process to be carried out to completion. Russia's actions do not protect Russia or traditional values. They make Orthodox Christians look like terrorists and give aid and comfort to the trans cult and the other totalitarian cults like them, in the West and in Russia. A vote for Putin is a vote for CRT and puberty blockers.

The CRT stuff is completely nuts and dishonest. Madness. And I agree: it's enraging that people want to claim it's not there...when it is. Then you end up going in circles not about whether it's good (it isn't) but what it even is: "CRT is only taught in graduate education..." "Okay, hold on. What a normal person means by CRT is all this business about white people being awful, about race being the most important feature of any person, and all that. Right?" "Oh, well, CRT is only taught in graduate programs..." And then they go off and try to force teachers to teach this nonsense. It's a perfectly disingenuous presentation of an evil thing. If at least it were a sincere presentation, because they believed it was good, you could work with that. But it hijacks the appearance of sincerity to recruit cult members at a young age. It's all evil.

Now, you say that the media has an agenda. Sure.

Russian media also has an agenda.

I have a lot of experience dealing with people who were socialized in the Soviet Union. I'm just going to say what I think is true, and a reasonable description of "how things are" in Russia. You aren't required to agree with me. But I'm going to use declarative sentences just to make it relatively brief.

Russia is an abusive society. It has been openly, unquestioningly abusive for over a hundred years. There was a brief break in the 90s. Since Putin came to town, we have been dealing with ever greater abuse and sliding towards totalitarianism (like the trans cult, but with nukes).

It's best compared to an abusive tyrant of a parent. An unrepentant alcoholic, not in treatment. Neglects / abuses the kids. Passes out. Believe me, I'm not joking about this kind of thing. Children very often continue to sympathize with and want to stay with an abusive parent. The parent is all they know. They love the parent despite everything. Often they believe or try to believe that the parent is doing good things. Or that they themselves are the cause of the bad things. This line is often taken by people (also non-parents) who abuse children: "You're making me do this."

Putin has cast himself in the role of the abusive parent. His followers (and that's far, far from the whole population of the RF) live in terror and they believe that only sticking closer to the abuser will keep him from doing something worse. This is not conscious for most of them.

It is a gross perversion of civil authority and a gross perversion of the notion of fatherhood (basically Putin is a new tsar, so that's an appropriate comparison). It is anti-family because it tries to make all its prisoners into frightened children. It tries to turn mothers and fathers into frightened children at the same level of dependency as young children. It flattens the family. It is anti-family and anti-Christian.

Yeah, I don't doubt that there's nonsense going on in Ukraine. When you blow up or threaten to blow upa power structure, the worst elements rush in to scramble for part (or all) of the pie. This is how we got the Bolsheviks. Nicholas II let things get so bad that the empire collapsed. The Bolsheviks only had a shot once there was a power vacuum. So destabilizing Ukraine is another way Putin is helping the "puberty blockers" movement, as I said above.

I personally have met a family of refugees (not the dad) from the (largely) Russian-speaking areas under heaviest assault. People I didn't know before this. No Nazis were bothering them. No one was stopping them from speaking Russian. As you say, the media (including Russian media) often paints a picture that is unlike reality. Putin's media also does this.

You could find a lot of guys and some women in this country with Nazi tattoos. I wouldn't support a Russian-Chinese invasion of the US, with the stated intent of taking over the country and brainwashing us all into believing that they loved us.

Putin and his inner circle are not worried about drag queen story hour and so on. They don't care about that stuff at all. It is utterly irrelevant to them. They are exactly like the Bolsheviks and the trans-cult people: they hijack vocabulary about things that are from God (kindness, family) for their own power. That is it. Putin himself should be treated as a cross between an enraged and tired toddler (needs a strong hand to put him to bed, or he will not stop until he drops), a trans cultist (needs to control every aspect of everyone's behavior and personality), and the KGB agent that he actually is (was)--someone whose entire personality is dedicated to imagining enemies in order to increase his own salary.

Putin does not see a threat to any tradition, families, anything. He does not care about those things. He sees only competition for power. In a way, he is like Marjoe Gortner, the child who was used as a puppet by his parents (link:
). From when he was practically a toddler, he was trained to act as a "preacher" and was "ordained" at age 4. He was trained to move in this or that way to accentuate this or that word in his memorized preacher-speeches. A "child preacher" novelty on the revival circuit. Putin similarly uses some of the words that sound Orthodox, but he does not know, or care, what they mean. However, he is not being puppeted by his parents, but by the passions. They speak with his voice and they encourage the same in others. It is like having Bruce Jenner for a patriarch. It excites those who have similar weaknesses and tells them that sin is good.

Putin is the poster child for disordered passions and unrepentant sin.

And (and rus, I don't mean to talk about you behind your back, I am just using the third person because GH mentioned what I said about your rhetoric) I do think that rus's thinking is poisoned (to a degree) by the now-totalitarian and abusive form of government under which he and his family live. It's not a moral failing and it's not spiritual condemnation when I say it. I said thinking, but I should have said rhetoric, as I can't observe the thinking directly. I have seen this stuff more than once in people who are Russian or are under heavy "Soviet influence" for a long period. I can even feel it working on me sometimes, and I don't live there.

And I have said before there were (important) times when rus was right and I was wrong. I have said so to rus privately and on TAW in public.

Navalny is a politician (well, now a political prisoner). He works the "pride" people and he also has worked the (open) Russian Nazis. He is a little like the Whites during the Civil War. He does not have a totally coherent vision (some parts of it are coherent). The Whites included monarchists and constitutional democrats, all kinds of people. They were anti-Bolshevik. That is what united them. Navalny represents the anti-totalitarian movement.

What someone who is being mistreated in a prison has to do with any of this is beyond me. Navalny did not order this genocidal invasion. I would not be totally comfortable with Navalny as president. I have seen a lot of him and I do believe he would be preferable to Putin, especially if he made good on his promise to reduce the power of the presidency. It is hard to know what Navalny would be like in office. I don't think even he himself knows. But in any case, I know other Russians who I would be much happier with.

You know why Putin had people apply Novichok to the crotch of Navalny's underwear, right? Not because he's into pride events. Because he's popular. End of sentence.

Putin is as interested in Orthodoxy as a normal person is interested in toilet paper. It is disposable garbage to him. Only if he "needs" it and it isn't there does he think about it. That's why he keeps it, or the appearance of it, on hand.

Most Russians have even less interest in Orthodoxy than Putin does. Even rus has said on here that news of the re-Christianization of Russia has been overstated.

There is a bunch of stuff about how the OCA is all about pride parades and wokeness. I overheard a woman in the line to venerate the Cross refer to Obama as a "monkey in the White House." (definitely Obama, definitely money, I think that was the phrase) That wasn't Orthodox, but it sure wasn't woke, either. I haven't been to every OCA parish and I don't know what goes on here and there. I don't see Father Matt on here promoting gay marriage. Maybe there is such stuff, I'm not the OCA police. But with the ROC we see a break with tradition such as I never imagined: Bomb our parishes? Utterly ignore the pleas of our clergy as they beg us to stop murdering their parishioners? No problem, boss!

Yet still, some act like the OCA is puberty blockers 24 / 7 and the ROC is...traditional? What is traditional about making no objection to the mass murder of your own flock? Where is that in Tradition? I mean this. Is there precedent for this? Did anyone see this coming?

No jurisdiction is perfect. But the leadership of the ROC has gone off the rails utterly.

I am well aware of the nonsense and evil that goes under the name of Marxism in the US at present. I am well aware of the pedophile campaign to get access to ever-younger kids...in schools!

And Putin's Russia aids them. Every bullet fired, every meter of ground, is another kid getting his (or her!) first dose of puberty blockers. That is a rhetorical move on my part. There is not a one-to-one correspondence, but Putin does aid the trans movement.

I have listened to Rus on this. We do have some common ground. But I do not believe that Russia negotiates in good faith. It has not yet presented a coherent set of requirements. The closest thing to that is still up on RIA Novosti -- it says the entire country needs to be under perfect Russian control for a generation and the population needs to be brainwashed. Okay. Well, no one is going to agree to that. I do not see any evidence that the RF is interested in actual negotiations.

Yeah, negotiations are preferable to murder. But what do you do if one party is constitutionally incapable of negotiating? Everything the RF does and says broadcasts that.

"This guy fought a home invader! Why didn't he just negotiate with the violent criminal who broke in shouting 'I'm here to destroy your family!! Stop resisting me!! You are me! Stop pretending you are not me!'"

I aware of the personalities of the posters on here and I have learned stuff from the people you mention. I know they have been patient with me more than once. But that people are good, pious, nice to strangers online, or even saintly does not mean they are right about everything. That I express my opinions on here does not mean that I think people who don't share those opinions are evil. Sometimes I do engage in rhetorical snarking: "Okay, if you believe that, than you must believe this, right?" That is a rhetorical move that I see is not ideal on these threads. Sorry to anyone who thought I really meant that they did believe whatever. What I meant likely was: there is a consequence to acting in the way you prefer, and I believe that what I just mentioned is that consequence.

Don't be impressed. Anyone can learn Russian. I brought it up only because it seemed relevant to your query.

I don't think people who disagree with me about this are "armchair idiots."

I do think that our ways of thinking in the US (liberal, conservative, traditional, libertine--these categories) are subject to "invasion" by Russian propaganda because we are not used to, not immune to, the forms that corruption, cynicism, and evil can take on Russian soil. It sneaks around our defenses. That is part of why I get jumpy on these threads. To me, Russian (I mean fascist Russian, not any Russian -- plenty of great Russian culture out there) propaganda is a very dangerous trojan horse. Like the rainbow flag.

Who doesn't like rainbows, right? But they package something bad in that. Abuse of children, for one thing. Totalitarian control of speech and exercise of religion, for another.

Who doesn't like tradition, non-insanity, families, stability, praying for people? (Okay, some don't, but a lot of people do see the appeal) That's the trojan horse here. What's inside it is the destruction of the ROC and the slow suicide of Russia as a viable state.

And, of course, genocide.
 
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Nick1000

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Yeah, I don't doubt that there's nonsense going on in Ukraine. When you blow up or threaten to blow upa power structure, the worst elements rush in to scramble for part (or all) of the pie. This is how we got the Bolsheviks. Nicholas II let things get so bad that the empire collapsed. The Bolsheviks only had a shot once there was a power vacuum. So destabilizing Ukraine is another way Putin is helping the "puberty blockers" movement, as I said above.

And of course that power vacuum was created when the Czar was ousted at the demand of the generals due to the poor management of the Russian troops who were off in WW1 and increasingly in retreat and returning home as deserters or wounded- and the civilian population population was suffering and no longer saw the Czar as being invincible.

That might be one little chapter in Russian history that Putin might want to keep in mind. As the saying goes: "History may not repeat itself but it does rhyme."
 
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tapi

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seashale76

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Typical Russian warfare, unfortunately.
And it's very sad and unacceptable. When you have soldiers castrating and then killing Ukrainian POWs, raping women is definitely not a stretch by any means.

However, we have an entire thread here where some are either outright denying reality or ignoring it altogether when things come to light that don't match their views of this alleged Holy Rus. I wonder if these soldiers took communion and got a blessing right before going out and doing this?
 
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prodromos

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And it's very sad and unacceptable. When you have soldiers castrating and then killing Ukrainian POWs, raping women is definitely not a stretch by any means.

However, we have an entire thread here where some are either outright denying reality or ignoring it altogether when things come to light that don't match their views of this alleged Holy Rus. I wonder if these soldiers took communion and got a blessing right before going out and doing this?
Who has denied it?
 
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rusmeister

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I think there is just as much credulity towards our media reports as many Russians have towards theirs. Are horrible reports true? Sometimes. Are they ever exaggerated? Usually. Do only the Russians engage in falsehood and exaggeration for the sake of an agenda? Absolutely not. I think most reports of evils, even when true, are of isolated instances that are then blown up into systematic policy that doesn't actually exist. I see the Russians over here doing it, too, and I put as little faith in them as I do in Western media, despite what my friend Archer thinks is a poisoned mind. Skepticism must carefully balance credulity, so that true reports are not dismissed out of hand, and false reports are not accepted uncritically. I smell exaggeration, if not outright fakery, in reports of castration.
 
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