(Orthodox) Russian soldiers engage in systematic rape to prevent women from having babies in future

rusmeister

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@Nick1000's posts are better than mine could be, and the post from Father Ioann's telegram that @Lukaris posted is the best summary I have seen of the spiritual and cognitive state of things in the dominant, murder-culture of the Russian Federation at present.
This is simply nuts. If my erstwhile friends saw your words, it would convince them that they have no choice but to fight. "Murder-culture"? Good Lord.
 
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archer75

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This is simply nuts. If my erstwhile friends saw your words, it would convince them that they have no choice but to fight. "Murder-culture"? Good Lord.
Rus, I go not by your friends and acquaintances (whom I almost certainly do not know) but by the actions and public words of the RF. That is the culture I am talking about. Not everyone who is against the war, not even the secret (to me) thoughts of those who are for it without actually being for the erasure of Ukraine.

Supporting Stalin meant supporting Stalinism, even if many of the supporters did not know or wished not to know what they were supporting.

Supporting the war against Ukraine (and I understand you are against it) means supporting what the war actually is, not what it is imagined, pretended, or hoped to be.
 
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Dorothea

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@Dorothea, thank you for your polite reply, and for pointing out where my post was poorly organized and jumped around without explanation. I will reply briefly to just one point of your post,

Therefore, because Putin knew this, he wanted to clean out the fascists in the Ukrainian government and keep Ukraine as a buffer from the advances of NATO.

Russia has shut down outside media (except for those few people who can use VPN) and has proposed legislation to outlaw unauthorized contact with foreigners.

Ukraine has done none of that. People in Ukraine (assume they haven't been bombed or shot to death) can access Russian media, Ukrainian media, US media, German media. They can message with friends in other countries without fear that they will be made to disappear.

Which of those sounds fascist?

Russia has open plans to exterminate another country as a country and is in the process of carrying out those plans, openly, on the world stage. From the beginning of this war, Russia has threatened the world with nuclear weapons if they put up too much of a fight and try to prevent genocide.

Ukraine has no plans to invade and destroy another country, and in fact gave up its nuclear weapons (inherited from the Soviet arsenal) voluntarily, after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Even after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, the (supposedly fascist, genocidal) government of Ukraine affirmed its 20-year-old position, wishing to remain a non-nuclear power in the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

Which of those sounds fascist?
I'll be totally honest and blunt with my response, and I don't mean this in any way to be mean or offensive. It's just what I'm seeing. All I see in this "I hate Putin" rhetoric is a person who has been brainwashed and swallowed all the Western propaganda over the past five months. There is murdering going on on both sides. No mention of the horrible things done by the Nazis to the Ukrainian people. They're in an impossible position. It also seems you never recognized that the USSR fell in the early 1990s. Russians rose out of oppressive communism and was working to regain their faith, some economic gains. Yes, they have oligarchs like the West. Yes, they took on some capitalist free market actions throughout the early 2000. Apparently, it was Putin that helped the Russian people in those early 2000s so that their lives were better off financially.

So, I don't hate Putin. I don't hate Zelensky. I don't hate anybody. All I see is hate for a single man as if he's the devil and is responsible for everything going wrong in the world.

Let's clean up our house (our own countries' terrible sins) before pointing at other countries.

But you and Nick and others that are blinded by Western propaganda won't see that.

Meanwhile, Turkey and Greece tensions are getting worse. If the prophecies come to pass, which seem to be headed that way, everyone can and will call genocide by Putin and the Russians when the Russian army streams into Turkey and obliterates many there, and Turkey no longer is Turkey. Tragic if this comes to fruition. NATO will get involved afterward and other countries like China and Japan, and the slaughter is said to be 700 million, and that's just the men. Not counting women and children.

After this senseless killing, all nation's leaders will wake up and say, "What are we doing"? Finally, their senses will return.

Throughout history of humanity, there have been purges from the sins of humans, that God has had to clean up because we never learn. This WWIII will be the last clean up. God help us.

Know this whole thing is bigger than Putin's invading Ukraine. It's a small piece.

The said thing is, it's only through this catastrophic war to come that anything will change the tide of all the sinful and dark events happening from every aspect of our global lives.

I continue to pray the war is lessened and that He has mercy on us all.
 
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archer75

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Hi again @Dorothea, I did not say I hated Putin. I did ask a couple rhetorical questions about which set of features sounded fascist to you. Of course, you're uner no obligation to answer or worry about my rhetorical questions, but I will give my answers, for what they are worth (not much, of course):

the country (in this case, Russia) that shuts down media, access to many forms of communication, threatens to make "unauthorized" contact with foreigners illegal, and punishes, transfers, or silences priests for speaking the truth is more reasonably under suspicion of fascism.

the country (in this case, Ukraine) that rejects nuclear weapons, wanting not to have them even after part of its territory was stolen by Russia, and also does not invade other countries with a public plan to destroy them as countries is much less likely to be under suspicion of "fascism".

The Russian propganda about Ukraine is largely projection. It has been thirty years since the USSR collapsed. The self-concept of the "post-Soviet" Russia has never recovered. It has to be a "great power." It cannot simply be a country. The population has been (as the propaganda says about Ukraine) "Nazified" over the course of the past 2-3 decades. This does not mean that everyone there is a fascist or wishes for genocide, but that the population, for the most part, has been slowly massaged into going along with this.

It is remarkable how deeply the propaganda has penetrated into the West, when the same propaganda tells us that the Western media are purely and reflexively anti-Russian.

Well, my participation in this thread is causing rather intense suicidal thoughts. Not the fault of anyone on this thread, of course. If anyone wants me, they can message or tag me, but otherwise, I will try to stay away for a good, long time. Take care, anyone reading this (very few). Pray for the millions of victims of the war against Ukraine.
 
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Nick1000

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Hi again @Dorothea, I did not say I hated Putin. I did ask a couple rhetorical questions about which set of features sounded fascist to you. Of course, you're uner no obligation to answer or worry about my rhetorical questions, but I will give my answers, for what they are worth (not much, of course):

the country (in this case, Russia) that shuts down media, access to many forms of communication, threatens to make "unauthorized" contact with foreigners illegal, and punishes, transfers, or silences priests for speaking the truth is more reasonably under suspicion of fascism.

the country (in this case, Ukraine) that rejects nuclear weapons, wanting not to have them even after part of its territory was stolen by Russia, and also does not invade other countries with a public plan to destroy them as countries is much less likely to be under suspicion of "fascism".

The Russian propganda about Ukraine is largely projection. It has been thirty years since the USSR collapsed. The self-concept of the "post-Soviet" Russia has never recovered. It has to be a "great power." It cannot simply be a country. The population has been (as the propaganda says about Ukraine) "Nazified" over the course of the past 2-3 decades. This does not mean that everyone there is a fascist or wishes for genocide, but that the population, for the most part, has been slowly massaged into going along with this.

It is remarkable how deeply the propaganda has penetrated into the West, when the same propaganda tells us that the Western media are purely and reflexively anti-Russian.

Well, my participation in this thread is causing rather intense suicidal thoughts. Not the fault of anyone on this thread, of course. If anyone wants me, they can message or tag me, but otherwise, I will try to stay away for a good, long time. Take care, anyone reading this (very few). Pray for the millions of victims of the war against Ukraine.




Have a laugh at Putin's expense. He owes you one.

:cool:

Vladimir Putin shows up in one of the Moscow's primary schools
After the welcoming ceremony there is some time for the students to ask the President a few questions

Little Sasha stands up and says:

I only have 2 questions:

1. Why did Russia take over the Crimea?

2. What are Russian soldiers doing in Ukraine?

Before Putin was able to say anything the bell suddenly rang, and all the students went for a break.

After the break, when everyone was back, a different student stood up and said:

Dear Mr President, I have only four questions:

1. Why did Russia take over the Crimea?

2. What are Russian soldiers doing in Ukraine?

3. Why did the bell rang 20 minutes early?

4. Where is Sasha?
 
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archer75

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Nick and Archer,

Question—-

a) how old are you guys?
b) have you ever been to Russia or Ukraine?
40s. Been to Russia six times. Speak and read the language every day of my life with a variety of people--emigres, visitors, family--and a wide age range (children to people 20-25 years my senior), read largely Russian-language news sources (not only about the war and "politics," but also cultural stuff, social issues, personal blogs), including but not limited to Russian state media. Have friends, and a couple fairly close friends, who are from Russia (and live abroad) and who are from Russia (and still live there, never having left). Have a strong interest in Russian saints (but not only Russian saints). Have read about the history of the ROC and Orthodoxy mostly in Russian-language sources, and not only recent sources. Read Ukrainian reasonably well but am not nearly so immersed in it.

How about you?
 
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Nick1000

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40s. Been to Russia six times. Speak and read the language every day of my life with a variety of people--emigres, visitors, family--and a wide age range (children to people 20-25 years my senior), read largely Russian-language news sources (not only about the war and "politics," but also cultural stuff, social issues, personal blogs), including but not limited to Russian state media. Have friends, and a couple fairly close friends, who are from Russia (and live abroad) and who are from Russia (and still live there, never having left). Have a strong interest in Russian saints (but not only Russian saints). Have read about the history of the ROC and Orthodoxy mostly in Russian-language sources, and not only recent sources. Read Ukrainian reasonably well but am not nearly so immersed in it.

How about you?

Don't leave this world just yet.

You are still needed. And you will outlive the current blight on the world that rules Russia. So that is all for the good.

Don't let the Putin apologists here wear you down just because you are outnumbered. As Tolstoy said: “Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”

You undoubtedly know about Tolstoy and have read his book:

:cool:


FNFWGqMWUAEqToW.jpg:large
 
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rusmeister

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40s. Been to Russia six times. Speak and read the language every day of my life with a variety of people--emigres, visitors, family--and a wide age range (children to people 20-25 years my senior), read largely Russian-language news sources (not only about the war and "politics," but also cultural stuff, social issues, personal blogs), including but not limited to Russian state media. Have friends, and a couple fairly close friends, who are from Russia (and live abroad) and who are from Russia (and still live there, never having left). Have a strong interest in Russian saints (but not only Russian saints). Have read about the history of the ROC and Orthodoxy mostly in Russian-language sources, and not only recent sources. Read Ukrainian reasonably well but am not nearly so immersed in it.

How about you?
Тогда давай на русском. Я тоже могу, и наверное, опыт по-больше.
Вопрос Гурни был справедлив. ОК, может быть, ты можешь без переводчика. Но имеешь дело со мной тогда, а не с Гурни. Ну?
 
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rusmeister

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Hey, A, I'm NOT trying to put you down. I have enough depression to sink a battleship, myself. I'm just holding on. Barely. I'm just responding to your ideas on an intellectual level. I get DEEPLY what it means to feel alone, feel depressed, and even to wish that I was dead. I really do. Don't flip, my friend, for so I choose to name you.
 
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archer75

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Тогда давай на русском. Я тоже могу, и наверное, опыт по-больше.
Вопрос Гурни был справедлив. ОК, может быть, ты можешь без переводчика. Но имеешь дело со мной тогда, а не с Гурни. Ну?
Пожалуйста, давайте по-русски. Не совсем понимаю, для чего это нужно...но я не против.

Опыта побольше, да? Не удивлюсь, если это так.

[English translation provided in response to popular request: Sure, we can speak Russian. I don't quite understand why it's necessary...but I don't have a problem with it.

More experience? I wouldn't be surprised if you do [in fact, have more experience.
]]

@rusmeister I understand there has been a request for translation.
 
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archer75

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Hey, A, I'm NOT trying to put you down. I have enough depression to sink a battleship, myself. I'm just holding on. Barely. I'm just responding to your ideas on an intellectual level. I get DEEPLY what it means to feel alone, feel depressed, and even to wish that I was dead. I really do. Don't flip, my friend, for so I choose to name you.
Sorry for not replying, I didn't realize this was meant for me. Thanks, and same to you. May Christ God bless you and yours.
 
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rusmeister

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For the peanut gallery, I spoke Russian because a man said that he can. I said that Gurney’s question was a just one, and that if it comes to speaking Russian and understanding Russians, I probably have more experience than anyone here.
These days anybody can copy and paste text into Google translate, as well.
You guys ought to know by now that you could ask me directly for such explanations.
 
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rusmeister

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Rus, I go not by your friends and acquaintances (whom I almost certainly do not know) but by the actions and public words of the RF. That is the culture I am talking about. Not everyone who is against the war, not even the secret (to me) thoughts of those who are for it without actually being for the erasure of Ukraine.

Supporting Stalin meant supporting Stalinism, even if many of the supporters did not know or wished not to know what they were supporting.

Supporting the war against Ukraine (and I understand you are against it) means supporting what the war actually is, not what it is imagined, pretended, or hoped to be.

In all fairness, Archer, there are some things I grant you and some things I DO agree with you on. THAT is why I oppose the war myself. We differ in what the best way to end it is, and what that end looks like. You are right that people who support an idea support the actual effects of that idea regardless of perception. But we differ in that we do not agree completely in what those actual and objective effects are. I grant, for example, that rape of Ukrainian women is highly probable somewhere at some point, and some reports are almost certainly true. I do not grant that it is a systematic plan by the High Command to conduct a razed-earth total war, though I can see how they might resort to that at some point if they decide that they cannot otherwise prevent Ukraine from being used as a platform against them. I have said numerous times now that admitting the Western mistakes immediately and backing off from continuing to commit them would be the fastest way to end it. At this point the Donbass is certainly lost, one way or the other.

But your way - admitting no mistakes and pressing for the complete subjugation of Russia - means World War III. Sorry, but I think that the worst of all possible solutions. The war is dragging on because the controlling figures on all sides involved, by and large, understand this, but nobody wants to back down. Nobody wants to admit any fault. And so we have what we have.
 
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ValeriyK2022

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I skimmed through this topic and noticed several controversial points on which I would like to dwell: 1) that Russia was forced to be like this, humiliating; 2) that there are elements of the Nazis in Ukraine; 3) that Russian soldiers massively rape women and commit other crimes; 4) Donbass.

Since I live in Ukraine, it is easier for me to collect information from different people living here. I will answer in order.

1. Perhaps Russians believe that Russia has been singled out for a humiliating role in world politics. But this role is not worse than that of Japan or Germany. These countries live quietly, do not touch anyone. Their people are happy. These countries help people from less wealthy countries (especially Germany). Ukrainians respect Germany not for strength, but for the help it provides to others, including Ukrainian refugees. Here the Russians may object that if they lived as well as the Germans, they would not be so embittered at the West. But we know that Russia has been earning trillions of dollars from oil and gas during these two decades. All the republics of the USSR, including Ukraine, invested in the development of these gas fields. The entire USSR lived at their expense. Now everything has gone to one Russia. And yet its people are in poverty. Why? Why did Russia have enough money to arm itself to the teeth, but not enough to provide a decent standard of living for its people?

2. Regarding the elements of Nazism. I can say that living in the Kyiv region, I saw them only on TV. Nationalist, patriotic slogans were and are. I do not deny this. Sometimes this patriotism is too much. There is verbal and psychological aggression against the Russian. But there were no cases that would put such things outside the law. There were no murders or robberies. Yes, teasing and trolling Russians is not a Christian thing, and I have always been against it. But that cannot justify what Russia did by attacking Ukraine. Trolling is bad, but killing is much worse.

3. About mass violence against women. It seems to me that this crime is not mass. It all depends on the individual soldiers. They were all allowed - yes. But not everyone does this, and far from everyone. It must be understood that Russian soldiers live in terrible stress. To say they are scared is an understatement. Most of them in this state are not up to it, but would rather stay alive. These crimes, it seems to me, are not massive. What war crimes are really massive? These are the ones they are ordered to do: launch rockets into residential areas (as a result, kill, maim people and deprive housing and infrastructure). This is done massively and regularly.

4. Donbass consists of 2 parts. The first part, which entered the DPR and LPR, which since 2014 are controlled by Russia (for example, Donetsk and Lugansk). The second part is that part of the Donbass that was controlled by Ukraine for these 8 years (Mariupol, Severodonetsk). If the population of the first part mainly wants to live with Russia. If only because they fought together. That population of the second part wants to be with Ukraine. Mariupol residents are fighting in the armed forces of Ukraine and they do not want their homes to be under occupation.
 
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archer75

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@rusmeister A few clarifications, not really arguments.

1) Re: the title of the thread, I intended a kind of telegraphic style such as I have seen used on many other posts of news items. The sense I intended was "[Some] RF soldiers engage in systematic rape," not "High Command ordered this across the board." Soldiers occupying a town and butchering helpless residents, while also engaging in (locally) regular and planned gang rape is the horrible idea here. That doesn't mean that all Russian soldiers, or even a majority, are doing this.

2) Sometimes your style on these posts seems to me to suggest that I personally am responsible for the actions of NATO, or that my personal admission of fault will lead to a sweet and cute resolution. I'm sure you don't mean that, or believe it, but I admit that it throws me sometimes.

3) I believe (I do not expect you to believe, and do not say that every person of good will must believe...I believe) that Russia is ALREADY subjugated to a criminal regime that can no longer be called a government even in jest. I believe that a swift defeat of Russia's war goals is LESS LIKELY to lead to the total destruction of Russia as a state and LESS LIKELY to lead to a "widespread" (as if it is not already widespread) war, such as we might call WWIII.

4) I do not believe that admission by "the West" of any given wrongdoing (and I believe that the countries generally referred to as "the West") have engaged in many evil and otherwise wrong actions on the world stage and at home) would have any positive result for Ukraine or anyone. I believe it would simply become a smug bit of propaganda for the RF.

Again, I believe that Russia is already subjugated. So my understanding of the situation does not have "subjugation of Russia" as a fantasy to be hoped for. It has "subjugation of Russia" as the present situation, and the end of that subjugation as the number 2 goal here (goal number 1, of course, is saving Ukraine). The ROC in Russia (most hierarchs, synod, HH Patriarch Kirill, NOT every parishioner, NOT every presbyter, NOT every reader) is in effect a cheerleader for what you and I both agree is evil. Promoting and condoning horrific sins, unimaginable to those of us on the outside. I believe that allowing the continued subjugation of Russia, and the poisoning of the ROC from within as part of that subjugation, is likely ultimately to lead to the destruction of Russia and the destruction of the ROC as a jurisdiction.

In other words, because I do not believe that anything but sound defeat on the battlefield will "stop" the criminal regime that controls the resources of the RF, I believe that such defeat is the only way to
a) save Ukraine (most important)
b) stop Russia from falling into deeper destruction than it saw even during the Civil War
c) prevent the destruction, possibly even on paper ("that jurisdiction doesn't exist anymore") of the ROC
d) be reasonably sure to prevent a widespread WWIII.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but there it is.
 
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archer75

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By the way, I don't want to leave this hanging: it seemed possible to me that Gurney's question, if I had said "No, never been to either country, rely on CNN for everything" would have been followed up with "Well, then, you don't know anything." Yet my response wasn't followed by "aha, so maybe you do do know a little something and have sources other than CNN, even if I disagree with you." Perhaps this wasn't the purpose, and I'm not putting words in your mouth, or @gurneyhalleck1 's, but it seemed likely to me at the time that that was the rhetorical move.

If it wasn't, I would ask what the (brief) push to switch to Russian was for, and what, if any, answer there is to my statement that I do in fact have non-zero experience with Russia, Russian language, Russian culture, and Russian media sources, and how that answer would have been different if I had said "no, I don't know anything other than what I read on CNN or NPR."
 
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