Orthodox only please, what is the official position of the EO Church on faith and works?

[BNR32FAN]

im curious if the EO’s official position of faith and works is that works do play some sort of role in our salvation. I do believe that works are necessary for salvation, given the individual has the ability to do them, but I’m reluctant to say that the works themselves actually play a role in our salvation. I’m inclined to think that it is the state of our heart, that is to say our love for God and others that is the root of our works and the extent to which we are judged according to our deeds. What are your thoughts brothers & sisters?

 

[ArmyMatt]

faith is active and dynamic. so good works will flow from the faith of a grace filled life. or, put another way, we are saved by grace through faith for good works.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Watching. I think I understand the answer, but not sure I can explain it well enough.

It's moving into the territory of "questions that don't make sense" (nothing against the question or asker - it's just that it shows a certain way of looking at salvation -- and "works" -- to ask it, and it's not how I've come to understand it within an Orthodox framework).

 

[BNR32FAN]

faith is active and dynamic. so good works will flow from the faith of a grace filled life. or, put another way, we are saved by grace through faith for good works.

So then would it be reasonable to say that the EO doesn’t teach that works play a role in our salvation but instead that faith plays a role in our works and that an absence of works is evidence of an absence of faith?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Watching. I think I understand the answer, but not sure I can explain it well enough.

It's moving into the territory of "questions that don't make sense" (nothing against the question or asker - it's just that it shows a certain way of looking at salvation -- and "works" -- to ask it, and it's not how I've come to understand it within an Orthodox framework).

I’ve just been studying the scriptures and some of the earliest church father’s writings for some time now and I’mtrying to piece together how faith and works work together to perfect our faith as James put it. John 15 is probably the most powerful scripture I can think of on this subject and I just wanted to reach out to those who study the EO teachings as I hold the EOC in very high regards as I believe it is the apostolic Church of God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So then would it be reasonable to say that the EO doesn’t teach that works play a role in our salvation but instead that faith plays a role in our works and that an absence of works is evidence of an absence of faith?

works though do play a role if they reveal true faith.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I’ve just been studying the scriptures and some of the earliest church father’s writings for some time now and I’mtrying to piece together how faith and works work together to perfect our faith as James put it. John 15 is probably the most powerful scripture I can think of on this subject and I just wanted to reach out to those who study the EO teachings as I hold the EOC in very high regards as I believe it is the apostolic Church of God.

Right, I understand you asking. Please don't think I'm criticizing you. Its just that I once understood that question in a certain way as a Protestant, and I'm seeing now that it just doesn't encompass how we would approach it. Because of the underlying assumptions.

But I'm not criticizing you for asking.

 

[BNR32FAN]

works though do play a role if they reveal true faith.

I would say they only play a role in helping us determine if someone has a saving faith ie. if they are abiding in Christ but God knowing our heart’s intentions would not need works to conclude our faith. Would you agree?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would say they only play a role in helping us determine if someone has a saving faith ie. if they are abiding in Christ but God knowing our heart’s intentions would not need works to conclude our faith. Would you agree?

no, because if works weren't a part of what saves, Christ would not have told us what to do and given us commandments to follow.

 

[☦Marius☦]

faith is active and dynamic. so good works will flow from the faith of a grace filled life. or, put another way, we are saved by grace through faith for good works.

no, because if works weren't a part of what saves, Christ would not have told us what to do and given us commandments to follow.

im curious if the EO’s official position of faith and works is that works do play some sort of role in our salvation. I do believe that works are necessary for salvation, given the individual has the ability to do them, but I’m reluctant to say that the works themselves actually play a role in our salvation. I’m inclined to think that it is the state of our heart, that is to say our love for God and others that is the root of our works and the extent to which we are judged according to our deeds. What are your thoughts brothers & sisters?

I think the two are equally important and necessary, yet only one saves. One cannot have faith without the sacraments, especially Holy Communion, and prayer, piety and all the works that keep faith alive. Yet if all those are done without faith in the first place then they are utterly pointless. Faith without works is dead but works without faith are like filthy rags.

 

[☦Marius☦]

I would say they only play a role in helping us determine if someone has a saving faith ie. if they are abiding in Christ but God knowing our heart’s intentions would not need works to conclude our faith. Would you agree?

I think it is impossible to have one without the other (good works at least). One cannot have true faith without an urge to act on it, whether by praying (a work), communing, being baptized, preaching the word, doing faithful acts and practicing sinlessness and asceticism. If a person has faith, those things absolutely will come because the Holy Spirit drives the person to them. So if the person hardens their heart towards doing their works, then they are equally losing their faith. I think it all comes down to the fact that these two categories shouldn't even be separate. What saves us is becoming like Christ, Christ had faith in the Father, Christ was Holy. So should we be with faith in Christ and striving to be like him its so simple I don't understand why it is even an issue for most people. If it hadn't been for the extreme lengths the RCC went to emphasize works over anything else I doubt there would ever even be debates on this subject.

 

[~Anastasia~]

As mentioned ... becoming like Christ, being transformed, having Christ formed in us ... that is what happens when we are being saved.

A person who gives of himself to others is/becomes a generous person. A person who loves is/becomes a loving person. And so on.

The "works" ... i.e. really the life we live, is part of becoming the person we are. And whether or not we are like Christ is salvation. So the "works" ... a life lived according to faith (however long that may be ... even if it's only moments after conversion like some martyrs) ... that life lived according to faith is part of what makes us into people who are like Christ.

Of course the grace of God is necessary too. It is not a thing we can do on our own. But nor is it a thing God does TO us while we are passive and unresponsive to grace.

And in no way can we possibly "earn" or "purchase" salvation through any efforts/"works" of our own. This last is what Protestants usually imagine "works vs faith" to be. And for us - it simply isn't.

 

[BNR32FAN]

no, because if works weren't a part of what saves, Christ would not have told us what to do and given us commandments to follow.

Hmmm... that’s something to think about. I can see evidence of what you said in that we will be judged according to our deeds although I can also see in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are saved by faith apart from works. I think Romans 4:1-5 is also very relevant. When I think of faith I tend to think of more than just a mere carnal knowledge or belief that Christ is the Son of God and our Savior. I tend to think of faith as more of a devotion to God. Lol I’m still at square one with the same undecided understanding of how faith and works play a role in our salvation. It just seems to me that love is the root of good works and the major emphasis of Jesus, both love for God and love for others. I see this in His examples given in John 15 and Matthew 25:41-46 and also by the apostles in James James 2:14-16, 1 John 2, and 1 John 3. In Matthew 25 the reason Jesus gave for condemning the goats was because of their lack of works but if you look at the type of works He listed they all derive from love for others. The same with James 2:15-16. That’s why I feel that we are judged according to whether or not we love God and love others but on the other hand like I said before the scriptures say we will be judged according to our deeds. As far as I’m aware of it doesn’t say we will be judged according to our love for God and others. I guess in the end it really doesn’t matter if we fully understand exactly how faith and works play into our salvation as long as we have both, we strive to serve God, and we endure and abide in Christ we will be saved. His ways are above our understanding, who can know God’s thoughts? Thanks brother Matt it’s always a pleasure conversing with you. I enjoy reading your posts, you seem very well educated on the scriptures and the teachings of the Church. Have a blessed evening

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think it is impossible to have one without the other (good works at least). One cannot have true faith without an urge to act on it, whether by praying (a work), communing, being baptized, preaching the word, doing faithful acts and practicing sinlessness and asceticism. If a person has faith, those things absolutely will come because the Holy Spirit drives the person to them. So if the person hardens their heart towards doing their works, then they are equally losing their faith. I think it all comes down to the fact that these two categories shouldn't even be separate. What saves us is becoming like Christ, Christ had faith in the Father, Christ was Holy. So should we be with faith in Christ and striving to be like him its so simple I don't understand why it is even an issue for most people. If it hadn't been for the extreme lengths the RCC went to emphasize works over anything else I doubt there would ever even be debates on this subject.

I’m trying to hold back on mentioning the RCC indulgences issue that led to the reformation but just couldn’t muster up the restraint. For the sake of unity I will just leave it at that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

As mentioned ... becoming like Christ, being transformed, having Christ formed in us ... that is what happens when we are being saved.

A person who gives of himself to others is/becomes a generous person. A person who loves is/becomes a loving person. And so on.

The "works" ... i.e. really the life we live, is part of becoming the person we are. And whether or not we are like Christ is salvation. So the "works" ... a life lived according to faith (however long that may be ... even if it's only moments after conversion like some martyrs) ... that life lived according to faith is part of what makes us into people who are like Christ.

Of course the grace of God is necessary too. It is not a thing we can do on our own. But nor is it a thing God does TO us while we are passive and unresponsive to grace.

And in no way can we possibly "earn" or "purchase" salvation through any efforts/"works" of our own. This last is what Protestants usually imagine "works vs faith" to be. And for us - it simply isn't.

Yes I don’t understand how so many can refute the necessity of faith and works in order to receive salvation. They can’t grasp the concept that works can be necessary for receiving salvation without our salvation being the result of our works. I often wonder if in some cases the word pistis is actually referring to faithfulness, trustworthiness, and fidelity instead of trusting and believing in Christ. The same with pisteuo. From what I see in the definitions the words pistis, pisteuo, and pistos can all imply obedience, loyalty, and devotion.

 

[nutroll]

I believe there are a few misconceptions that should be cleared up. To me the most important misconception is that sacraments are works. Getting baptized, or chrismated, or receiving communion (among other sacraments or mysteries of the church) are the work of God for us, not works that we do. Yes we have to show up and receive and ensure that we don't receive these things in an unworthy manner by our laziness or carelessness, but they are still the work of God in and for us.

Another misconception is that works are just evidence of our faith. But often works (by this I mean prayer, fasting, or almsgiving -- not works of the Jewish law) are the means by which we acquire or strengthen our faith. When we pray it strengthens our relationship with and commitment to God. When we fast we weaken the hold that the desires of the flesh have on us. When we give alms, we practice seeing Christ in those less fortunate than us, and begin to forsake the hold of riches on us. These are all good things that grow our faith and trust in God.

I love the one morning prayer from the Jordanville Prayer Book:

O my plenteously-merciful and all-merciful God, Lord Jesus Christ through Thy great love Thou didst come down and become incarnate so that Thou mightest save all. And again, O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty; yea, Thou Who art great in compassion and ineffable in mercy. For he that believeth in Me, Thou hast said, O my Christ, shall live and never see death. If, then, faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold, I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou wilt find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works, may it answer for, may it acquit me, may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory. And let Satan not seize me and boast, O Word, that he hath torn me from Thy hand and fold. But whether I desire it or not, save me, O Christ my Saviour, forestall me quickly, quickly, for I perish. Thou art my God from my mother’s womb. Vouchsafe me, O Lord, to love Thee now as fervently as I once loved sin itself, and also to work for Thee without idleness, diligently, as I worked before for deceptive Satan. But supremely shall I work for Thee, my Lord and God, Jesus Christ, all the days of my life, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

I think it sums up our understanding well, and is very biblical...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hmmm... that’s something to think about. I can see evidence of what you said in that we will be judged according to our deeds although I can also see in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are saved by faith apart from works. I think Romans 4:1-5 is also very relevant. When I think of faith I tend to think of more than just a mere carnal knowledge or belief that Christ is the Son of God and our Savior. I tend to think of faith as more of a devotion to God. Lol I’m still at square one with the same undecided understanding of how faith and works play a role in our salvation. It just seems to me that love is the root of good works and the major emphasis of Jesus, both love for God and love for others. I see this in His examples given in John 15 and Matthew 25:41-46 and also by the apostles in James James 2:14-16, 1 John 2, and 1 John 3. In Matthew 25 the reason Jesus gave for condemning the goats was because of their lack of works but if you look at the type of works He listed they all derive from love for others. The same with James 2:15-16. That’s why I feel that we are judged according to whether or not we love God and love others but on the other hand like I said before the scriptures say we will be judged according to our deeds. As far as I’m aware of it doesn’t say we will be judged according to our love for God and others. I guess in the end it really doesn’t matter if we fully understand exactly how faith and works play into our salvation as long as we have both, we strive to serve God, and we endure and abide in Christ we will be saved. His ways are above our understanding, who can know God’s thoughts? Thanks brother Matt it’s always a pleasure conversing with you. I enjoy reading your posts, you seem very well educated on the scriptures and the teachings of the Church. Have a blessed evening

interesting that you began with Ephesians 2. you should read verse 10.

and it's a pleasure talking to you as well.

 

[Lukaris]

Is it possible that we can explain salvation by grace in that it is the uncreated grace which we respond to by faith and try to express in works according to God’s will that we are to love God & neighbor?

 

[BNR32FAN]

interesting that you began with Ephesians 2. you should read verse 10.

and it's a pleasure talking to you as well.

I see verse 10 saying that we are saved for works but not by works.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is it possible that we can explain salvation by grace in that it is the uncreated grace which we respond to by faith and try to express in works according to God’s will that we are to love God & neighbor?

What do you mean by uncreated grace? I don’t understand the question friend.