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Orthodox Only - How would you respond to this?

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Light of the East, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Okay. I was Facebooking and ran into a chap who has asked me a question I can't really answer well regarding papal supremacy. I am in red, he is in black.

    Right, councils happen, but if there is no ultimate authority other than consensus of Bishops, then you couldn’t settle a dispute where many Bishops believed X and many believed not X

    You misunderstand a council. The Holy Spirit is the one who leads the council. The trust of the Church is that the council will be led by the Holy Spirit to the truth.

    Yeah, but that hasn't been the case, has it?

    But who settles the issue to declare what the Holy Ghost wants?
    Yes it has
    Example:

    Ephesus II had 150 Bishops


    And is not accepted by Orthodox
    Yet, they accepted Constantinople I and II which had less Bishops present
    And on whose authority did they accept or reject certain councils?
    Why can the Orthodox simply decide they won’t accept Lateran I, or Trent? Or Vienne?

    But let me get back to my question from a second ago: when Jesus walked on earth, did he runs things by committee and democracy? Could the majority vote of the Apostles overridden the will of Christ?

    I would have to study Ephesus II (the notorious "Robber's Council") to be better understand it, but I have the feeling that there were politics and ego involved. The same happened with the Fifth Council in which Origen and the "Three Chapters" were condemned. Later scholarship has found that Emperor Justinian meddled with the council and with the canons of the council. Why do you not trust that the Holy Spirit of God can lead the councils just as Christ led the Apostles?

    That’s my point Edward
    There is a leader
    One leader
    Not a council. A valid council looks like a democracy but it isn’t. The Holy Ghost ultimately is running the show.
    He needs one mouthpiece to speak through, or else there will be confusion
    If there isn’t a final Vicar of Christ on earth, then if some Bishops agree on issue X but some disagree on issue X, who settles the dispute?
    You can’t escape this logic Edward

    Your saying at this point, “After studying, I have serious problems with the Western idea”


    Whether you have personal issues with it doesn’t get you out of the logic
    None of those issues contradict or go against any other truth
    They all fit quite nicely
    You are using your own authority to reject them
    You must use your own authority to reject them though because your theology removes their being a final leader, a Vicar of Christ.
    There*
    So, you have made yourself into your own Pope
    All the while protesting that such a thing doesn’t exist
    Do you see the absurdity?

    I do see the absurdity IF I was depending upon my own judgment. I am agreeing with the judgment of a higher authority, the Church of the East.
    You reject Papal infallibility and Supremacy but you need the councils to be infallible and supreme in order to have a working theology. And you have no way to answer who settles a major dispute when many Bishops are on both sides of an issue.
    Who decided Ephesus II was a robber Council?
    Some of the Bishops?
    Well 150 other Bishops attended and thought it was legitimate
    So who makes the final ruling?

    A Bishop who has final and ultimate authority to judge all things in the Church in manners of government and in clarifying doctrinal disputes

    And who has the ability to speak infallibly in all issues of faith or morals that the Universal Church must believe

    If we don’t have this, we can’t know anything about Christianity with certainty. It’s all personal opinion.

    It sounds nice and fair to say all the Bishops are equal

    But in practice, it doesn’t work

    Human companies aren’t run that way. One CEO or owner leads the way and handles all final arguments.

    Father’s have dominion over their families as ultimate authority

    Everything is hierarchical with God

    Okay, guys. Please help me out here.

    **BTW - I was not looking for a fight. I was talking with someone else and identified myself as Orthodox in my theological understanding. This guy is apparently a very dedicated RC who sent me a PM and challenged me.


     
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  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    If your question was on say the General Theology forum, I could make some contribution that could be helpful.
     
  3. Anhelyna

    Anhelyna Handmaid of God Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Oscarr

    I appreciate your honesty BUT the OP asked for "Orthodox only " responses and you are not , according to CF , Orthodox.

    If the OP had wanted to post the question in General Theology he would have done so
     
  4. RobNJ

    RobNJ CF Olde Pharte

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    Besides, we NEVER try to force someone into the General Heresies Forum!!
     
  5. straykat

    straykat Well-Known Member

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    I already gave up when he said Jesus didn't hold councils.

    Of course he didn't! He's the Head of the Church. The rest of us are the Body. But their whole belief system hinges on Christ and the Holy Spirit seemingly leaving us, and some little head named the Vicar of Christ replaces him.
     
  6. Anhelyna

    Anhelyna Handmaid of God Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Gentle posters

    I would like to remind you that the OP started the title of this thread with the words "Orthodox only - how would......... "

    This means , unless I am sadly mistaken, that he wishes to have responses from Orthodox posters. According to CF this means Orthodox Posters belonging to Greek Orthodox Churches , the various Churches of Russian Tradition , the Antiochian Church etc etc .

    Please respect his clearly expressed wish

    Anhelyna -- Senior Ambassador Member
     
  7. straykat

    straykat Well-Known Member

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    I am Orthodox. I put Christian as my title originally, but I never could figure out how to make any changes. I figured "Christian" is also accurate anyways (since I'm personally a little more stripped down and wish for a Western rite church and don't really want to focus on Byzantium).

    Sorry to derail.
     
  8. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    I would say stop having these conversations while still in communion with Rome. stop identifying as Orthodox, or hinting that you are, until you are actually in the Orthodox Church.
     
  9. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    I'm sorry this bothers you, Father. My theology, my Liturgy, my understanding is all Orthodox. I have abandoned ESPN for Ancient Faith Radio. I use an Orthodox prayer book with Orthodox prayers. I am only waiting for the Lord to open the door to an Orthodox parish.

    As for the conversations, how am I going to nail down the faith thoroughly in my heart and mind unless I field such objections and get answers to them? Do you honestly think that after I am in the Church that these questions will not come up, especially from my Traddie Catholic wife? I am not interested in ego-building or winning a debate here. I am learning, and this sort of debate and fielding such objections and learning from you good folks here is part of the process.
     
  10. RobNJ

    RobNJ CF Olde Pharte

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    But, how do you keep track of your favorite teams?? :D
     
  11. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 scavenging in the wasteland for gasoline

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    First bad move—-“I was Facebooking.”^_^

    Second issue—-avoid debates. The best way to learn Orthodoxy is to just explore the faith, pray, attend Vespers and Liturgy, pray some more.

    I’m so done with debates with Catholics.
     
  12. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    the process begins when you are at least a catechumen. that's the disconnect. your understanding is not Orthodox until you are at least blessed on your journey to Orthodoxy. the faith is not just a mental acknowledgement of our dogmas, but a life lived IN the Body.

    you only begin to nail down the faith thoroughly in your heart AFTER your illumination.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  13. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Yes, Father.

    Pray for me to enter the catechumenate soon.
     
  14. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    sure thing. and we look forward to the day when you are in the Church. but until that day, you really should stop posting these debates between yourself and the Latin Rite. because you are still in communion with them.
     
  15. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Yes, Father.

    When I have questions of this sort, may I PM you instead?
     
  16. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    questions you can ask on here all day. I don't think it's productive for you to post debates like this,

    please don't take this the wrong way, but Orthodoxy doesn't need you as her defender.
     
  17. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    I take this as truth. I guess my zeal for Orthodoxy (and my desire to get there) is running ahead of my common sense some days.

    I really meant to post that OP as a question. I wasn't trying to show off (I deleted a great deal of what was said between us). I was really looking for an answer to the challenge to conciliarity because I had never seen those challenges before.

    Again, I apologize for coming across in the wrong way.
     
  18. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    I don't think anyone thinks you are showing off, it's just that you are debating people inside your communion, as if you were outside of her.
     
  19. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 scavenging in the wasteland for gasoline

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    It’s ok. We don’t think you’re showing off! I went through the same phase. It’s jokingly called “hyperdoxy.” No need to apologize. We love ya, man!! And I, for one, am thrilled you’re with us!!

     
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  20. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Even though I am not fully "with ya," I am learning so much as I travel along this journey. I can't recommend Fr. John Strickland's podcast series strongly enough to anyone who wants a good education in the history of Christendom and where things began to unravel. He is fair and even-handed in discussing the history of the East and West, but at the same time, you learn things that make you just go "Whaaaaaaa????"

    AFR is such a blessing to someone like me.
     
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