Orthodox - death penalty

rusmeister

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Thanks for that, and yeah so far it's just about the principle. I love how Steve is brutally honest and it often cuts the superficial levels of my own thinking on a topic (I mean how I think about why I think a certain thing). I can't always relate to everything he says but he shows the way to repentance of our own thoughts about ourselves many times.
A huge thing for me is realizing that we tend to treat physical death like the ultimate evil, which is actually atheistic and not our Faith. We forget that physical death must come to all, and that spiritual death is by far worse, the true ultimate tragedy.

I think it really is inconsistent to be OK with police using deadly force but not the death penalty. If you are really against it, you have to be against police, too (let alone armies), and the idea of people defending themselves - or others - with deadly force, ever. The reasons Christians give against the DP are also reasons against deadly self-defense.

And that means just letting the most brutal and barbaric people run the world. I think it means NOT loving our neighbor.
 
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All4Christ

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I think it really is inconsistent to be OK with police using deadly force but not the death penalty. If you are really against it, you have to be against police, too (let alone armies), and the idea of people defending themselves - or others - with deadly force, ever. The reasons Christians give against the DP are also reasons against deadly self-defense

There’s a difference...and killing is never good, even when necessary.

When violence must be used as a lesser evil, in order to prevent greater evil, it still needs to be repented of, and it must never be identified with perfect Christian morality.
 
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rusmeister

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There’s a difference...and killing is never good, even when necessary.

When violence must be used as a lesser evil, in order to prevent greater evil, it still needs to be repented of, and it must never be identified with perfect Christian morality.
Yes, of course there is a difference. But the principle is the same; killing someone who is a definite threat to us and our neighbor for whatever reason.
To repent of doing something means to really wish you hadn’t done it, and determine never to do it again. So any society where Christians find themselves governing must either accept that in the fallen world, they’re going to have to support things they’d rather not support in the name of protecting and loving our neighbor, or leave off governing (and adopt an absolute pacifist, Tolstouyan Dukhabor-type position).
 
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All4Christ

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Yes, of course there is a difference. But the principle is the same; killing someone who is a definite threat to us and our neighbor for whatever reason.
To repent of doing something means to really wish you hadn’t done it, and determine never to do it again. So any society where Christians find themselves governing must either accept that in the fallen world, they’re going to have to support things they’d rather not support in the name of protecting and loving our neighbor, or leave off governing (and adopt an absolute pacifist, Tolstouyan Dukhabor-type position).
It is the church’s teaching that we need to repent of taking life no matter the reason it was done. That’s the teaching of the Church, the Church Fathers, etc.

I’m not saying we don’t need to follow the law and uphold its laws (within reason). That doesn’t change what I said about repentance and perfect Christian morality though.

If I were to kill a person who was about to kill my family - I still would need to confess and repent of it, even if the Church accepts that in this fallen world, that act of violence prevented a greater evil.
 
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archer75

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A huge thing for me is realizing that we tend to treat physical death like the ultimate evil, which is actually atheistic and not our Faith. We forget that physical death must come to all, and that spiritual death is by far worse, the true ultimate tragedy.

I think it really is inconsistent to be OK with police using deadly force but not the death penalty. If you are really against it, you have to be against police, too (let alone armies), and the idea of people defending themselves - or others - with deadly force, ever. The reasons Christians give against the DP are also reasons against deadly self-defense.

And that means just letting the most brutal and barbaric people run the world. I think it means NOT loving our neighbor.
It is quite possible to be "ok" with police killing people IF NECESSARY to protect innocents where there is no other option (gunman waving gun around in crowd screaming that he is going to kill everyone there), but against the death penalty because once someone is apprehended, they can be controlled (if their behavior warrants it) by non-deadly means.

So if one is against the DP (killing prisoners), one does not have to be against police or self-defense. Most policework does not involve and should not involve violence at all.

It is not so that there is no consistent position to be held here.
 
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ArmyMatt

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It is quite possible to be "ok" with police killing people IF NECESSARY to protect innocents where there is no other option (gunman waving gun around in crowd screaming that he is going to kill everyone there), but against the death penalty because once someone is apprehended, they can be controlled (if their behavior warrants it) by non-deadly means.

So if one is against the DP (killing prisoners), one does not have to be against police or self-defense. Most policework does not involve and should not involve violence at all.

It is not so that there is no consistent position to be held here.

that is an interesting point. hadn't thought of that before.
 
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All4Christ

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It is quite possible to be "ok" with police killing people IF NECESSARY to protect innocents where there is no other option (gunman waving gun around in crowd screaming that he is going to kill everyone there), but against the death penalty because once someone is apprehended, they can be controlled (if their behavior warrants it) by non-deadly means.

So if one is against the DP (killing prisoners), one does not have to be against police or self-defense. Most policework does not involve and should not involve violence at all.

It is not so that there is no consistent position to be held here.
Exactly :thumbsup: It’s not a one to one correlation.
 
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A huge thing for me is realizing that we tend to treat physical death like the ultimate evil, which is actually atheistic and not our Faith. We forget that physical death must come to all, and that spiritual death is by far worse, the true ultimate tragedy.

I think it really is inconsistent to be OK with police using deadly force but not the death penalty. If you are really against it, you have to be against police, too (let alone armies), and the idea of people defending themselves - or others - with deadly force, ever. The reasons Christians give against the DP are also reasons against deadly self-defense.

And that means just letting the most brutal and barbaric people run the world. I think it means NOT loving our neighbor.
Well, my thinking so far ...

Physical death is only the ultimate thing to grieve over if the person dying is unrepentant and losing further opportunity to repent.

And I actually have taken a completely "all killing of persons is wrong" stance - not that it might not be less wrong than another action. I am not in the position to judge whether self-defense (or defense of others' lives) is justified or not. I've asked myself many times what I might actually do if ever faced with that immediate question - and I'm honestly not sure.

My ideals say to kill is wrong. But it might be less wrong than not killing.

And yes, that boils down to a completely pacifist idealism, at least in thought. Though I don't judge police, soldiers, etc. if the action is necessary.

I agree that the death penalty has the added layer of considering that no one is in imminent danger. So ... so far I am of the mind that I couldn't order it.

But is it ever consistent with Christian thought? Perhaps. Steve has demonstrated this possibility, from God's own commands.

What I know is that I'm not finished examining it. Perhaps my opposition was rooted in some kind of self-piety.
 
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rusmeister

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It is quite possible to be "ok" with police killing people IF NECESSARY to protect innocents where there is no other option (gunman waving gun around in crowd screaming that he is going to kill everyone there), but against the death penalty because once someone is apprehended, they can be controlled (if their behavior warrants it) by non-deadly means.

So if one is against the DP (killing prisoners), one does not have to be against police or self-defense. Most policework does not involve and should not involve violence at all.

It is not so that there is no consistent position to be held here.
I think you ought to listen to what Steve has to say. It looks like you haven't done that to date. Without considering the objections to what you defend extensively, no real understanding can be achieved. It took him eight podcasts to lay out the case that says you're wrong. do you really think I could do it - convincingly - in a few posts?
You have to remember that I was solidly anti-death penalty in all cases until I listened to him.
 
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rusmeister

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that is an interesting point. hadn't thought of that before.
This seems to me to be the very first thing one would think about on the issue of police using deadly force. Not sure how you could have missed it.
 
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This seems to me to be the very first thing one would think about on the issue of police using deadly force. Not sure how you could have missed it.

I wasn't thinking about police using deadly force, but the distinction that prisoners are already detained and not a threat. that was a distinction I hadn't thought about.
 
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All4Christ

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I think you ought to listen to what Steve has to say. It looks like you haven't done that to date. Without considering the objections to what you defend extensively, no real understanding can be achieved. It took him eight podcasts to lay out the case that says you're wrong. do you really think I could do it - convincingly - in a few posts?
You have to remember that I was solidly anti-death penalty in all cases until I listened to him.
I agree with Archer, and I read through all of Steve’s transcripts. Honestly, I can’t take the time to listen to the audio version for them all, but they are all transcribed.
 
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FenderTL5

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A huge thing for me is realizing that we tend to treat physical death like the ultimate evil, which is actually atheistic and not our Faith. We forget that physical death must come to all, and that spiritual death is by far worse, the true ultimate tragedy...
I agree with this (quoted) part of the post.
In fact, some time ago I was researching the Orthodox view on Original/Ancestral Sin and the author pointed out that even the 'self-defense' mechanism, that part of us that would kill for self-preservation is the 'old man', that needs to be crucified. Unfortunately, I don't recall the source/author. I've read numerous Orthodox writings on the topic.
 
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All4Christ

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I agree with this (quoted) part of the post.
In fact, some time ago I was researching the Orthodox view on Original/Ancestral Sin and the author pointed out that even the 'self-defense' mechanism, that part of us that would kill for self-preservation is the 'old man', that needs to be crucified. Unfortunately, I don't recall the source/author. I've read numerous Orthodox writings on the topic.
The sad thing about the death penalty is that it often enforces that spiritual death. The death penalty quickens the time of ultimate spiritual death with no recourse on their part.
 
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archer75

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I agree with Archer, and I read through all of Steve’s transcripts. Honestly, I can’t take the time to listen to the audio version for them all, but they are all transcribed.
@rusmeister is right that I haven't listened yet, and I didn't mean to give the impression that I had. I haven't the time for the audio, either. Are the transcripts on the same site?

I do intend to read them and reply here.
 
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I have now read two of the transcripts of the podcasts by Steve the Builder and will reply to them here.

Part 1 - this is not really an argument, just an introduction to the series with a bit about Steve's personal story. There's no coherent argument put forth, and no claim that one is put forth, so not too much to say here. I personally don't much care for the "hey I was young and dumb once, too, but now I'm older and I've worked in a difficult situation, so I was wrong then and now I'm right" kind of introduction, but let it stand - nothing terrible about the guy telling us some about his background.

Steve responds here to a pastoral letter from 1999 written by then-Bp Seraphim, the OCA Bishop of Ottowa and Canada. In this letter, Bp Seraphim says that he personally cannot square the death penalty with the Gospel.

Steve replies:

Steve the Builder said:
I find it personally ironic that Bp Seraphim says “talk is cheap” and Christians should visit prisons instead of supporting the death penalty. It was because of and exactly the realities of my involvement with such ministries that my philosophical views of capital punishment have changed. Since my days at the Boy’s Home I’ve hired and worked with ex-everythings, and have a former drug addicted employee who is currently on death row for the brutal murder of his mother and girlfriend. These reflections are not written from a safe distance from human evil. They are because I’ve been in the trenches with it in various ministries for the last 40 years. I wholeheartedly agree with him that we should bring the hope of the gospel to those in prison, but I do not believe that automatically translates to being against the death penalty.

So, I’ll say up front that this discussion is not an attack on Bp. Seraphim, but his statement can be viewed as the creed of the anti-death penalty position. His statement succinctly summarizes the arguments against capital punishment, not just within the Orthodox Church, but within the broader Christian tradition.

A couple problems here:

1) "These reflections are not written from a safe distance from human evil," as if then-Bishop (now Monk) Seraphim had never dealt with evil deeds performed by himself or other humans, when Steve shows no evidence that this is so. This is a pretty common trick used in (apparently) reasoned arguments - show yourself to be living in "the real world," as opposed to someone who disagrees with you and who, you imply, doesn't live in the real world (and therefore that person's opinion is to be discounted). However, this is not an argument. Even if Steve somehow showed that Bp Seraphim lived his life "a safe distance from human evil," that would not be an argument for the death penalty.

2) "but his statement can be viewed as the creed of the anti-death penalty position..." - Another instance of sleight of hand. There is no good reason to view a single pastoral letter by a hierarch as the creed of any position. In fact, the quoted text does not present much of an argument at all:

Monk Seraphim said:
“I am saddened whenever I hear Orthodox Christians defend capital punishment, even though I know that there are, were, and always will be various and opposing opinions in our Church, and that these opinions may be justifiable within their own systems of logic. I cannot square capital punishment with any of my Christian experience. The Old Testament may be quoted, but I do not see it in the New. I cannot square it with the introduction to the Ten Commandments. I cannot square it with the Gospel. I cannot square it with the words of the “Our Father.” I cannot square it with “The Beatitudes.” I cannot square it with my knowledge of our canonical tradition. I cannot square it with my knowledge of the teaching of the Fathers. I cannot square it with my reading of any one of our saints. And most certainly I cannot square it with the teaching of Saint Silouan, that the real test of a Christian is being able to forgive one’s enemies. Since we Christians stand for repentance, and are called to live this daily, it is perhaps our responsibility to help the persons incarcerated for serious crimes to move in that direction also. Perhaps we Orthodox Christians should at last take seriously our call to visit those in prison, to become qualified for a prison ministry, even, and to bring some hope, consolation, and witness of something better to these persons who otherwise could well die without knowing anything else except misery. We always say “Talk is cheap.” Perhaps it’s time we proved we are Christians by doing something instead of philosophizing.”

To summarize very briefly: "I cannot square support for death as a punishment for crime with my understanding of the Christian faith. I think it is better to minister to people who are in prison than to support the death penalty."

Now, although I am inclined to agree with the gist of Monk Seraphim's position, I cannot say that his letter functions as a creed for anything. It is grossly misleading for Steve to suggest that all one needs to do to overthrow Orthodox objections to the death penalty is to deal with the content of this letter.

Part 2 - Some of what Steve says here seems pointless to respond to from an Orthodox position, since he tries to talk about atheistic and Christian objections to the death penalty at the same time, and includes here some (to my mind, pointless, in an Orthodox context) talk about what is cheaper or might be cheaper, and so on.

What strikes me as worth responding to is his treatment of the story about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. First, Steve tells us that "This is the story about how God immediately strikes Ananaias dead before the congregation for lying about his tithe." Even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that God struck them dead for a punishment, which the text does not say (though I admit I'm not up on the history of Orthodox interpretation of this passage), then Steve says "While it was God who did the killing, St. Peter did not pray to God for mercy, clemency or life in prison for either of them."

So...what? I'm against the death penalty (so far, at least, but I haven't read to the end of the series), but if I see God strike anyone dead, I will be inclined to take that judgment as final and won't be asking for them to...be restored to life, or be restored to life and then imprisoned. What are we supposed to make of this, exactly? It seems that Steve means, but doesn't quite say, that this passage, in which two people are struck dead, means that people killing other people, at least for certain crimes, is okay. What crimes, exactly, then? Lying about income realized from the sale of land? Lying to Apostles? Do our bishops today count? What are we to take from this?

Steve then says "And St Luke records that the result was great fear came upon the Church and all who heard about it. I take that to be biblical language for “public capital punishment for lying to the apostles and the Church was a deterrent”. "

More sleight of hand. God striking someone dead is not capital punishment in the sense in which we humans need to discuss it. It is, literally, an act of God. It is beyond our likes and dislikes and quite beyond our ability to do anything about it. We cannot appeal to civil authorities or Apostles or anyone else, because the highest authority has already spoken. There is not much to say.

But then it gets worse, when Steve boldly interprets the passage to mean "public capital punishment for lying to the apostles and the Church was a deterrent," using the word "deterrent," so common in discussions of capital punishment in our day. You cannot just slip that in without extended argument to show that this is a valid interpretation and a valid connection. Whether he knows it or not, Steve is trying to associate the divine authority witnessed to in this story with modern, often not at all Christian, arguments for the death penalty. This is not acceptable and not honest.

I will respond to other parts as I have time.
 
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KernelPanic

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I think it really is inconsistent to be OK with police using deadly force but not the death penalty. If you are really against it, you have to be against police, too (let alone armies), and the idea of people defending themselves - or others - with deadly force, ever. The reasons Christians give against the DP are also reasons against deadly self-defense.
I've only skimmed what was transcribed, but I noticed that Steve referenced the ROC's position in Part 2. Specifically, he says:
A recent document called “The Bases of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church” which was signed by all the Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church summarizes the Church’s historical view of the death penalty in the Old and New Testaments and subsequent “Church age”. It says,

"The death penalty as a special punishment was recognised in the Old Testament. There are no indications to the need to abolish it in the New Testament or in the (capital “T”) Tradition or in the historical legacy of the Orthodox Church either."

In the same document it mentions that under the influence of the Church capital punishment in the period from the mid-18th century to the 1905 Revolution in Russia, it was applied on very rare occasions. It is notable that Prince Vladimir abolished the death penalty in Kiev when he converted to Christianity in the 10th Century. But I found the Russian Church’s bishop’s statement interesting because it seems to indicate that Holy Russia, in spite of Prince Vladimir’s influence, was not uniformly anti-death penalty across its 900 year history.
The problem though is that he seemed to have left out the rest of that paragraph to try to justify his position.

IX. Crime, punishment, reformation | The Russian Orthodox Church

The death penalty as a special punishment was recognised in the Old Testament. There are no indications to the need to abolish it in the New Testament or in the Tradition or in the historical legacy of the Orthodox Church either. At the same time, the Church has often assumed the duty of interceding before the secular authority for those condemned to death, asking it show mercy for them and commute their punishment. Moreover, under Christian moral influence, the negative attitude to the death penalty has been cultivated in people’s consciousness. Thus, in the period from the mid-18th century to the 1905 Revolution in Russia, it was applied on very rare occasions. For the Orthodox church consciousness, the life of a person does not end with his bodily death, therefore the Church continues her care for those condemned to capital punishment.

The abolition of death penalty would give more opportunities for pastoral work with those who have stumbled and for the latter to repent. It is also evident that punishment by death cannot be reformatory; it also makes misjudgement irreparable and provokes ambiguous feelings among people. Today many states have either abolished the death penalty by law or stopped practicing it. Keeping in mind that mercy toward a fallen man is always more preferable than revenge, the Church welcomes these steps by state authorities. At the same time, she believes that the decision to abolish or not to apply death penalty should be made by society freely, considering the rate of crime and the state of law-enforcement and judiciary, and even more so, the need to protect the life of its well-intentioned members.
So while the ROC doesn't give a definitive stance, it certainly acknowledges that abolishing it has a Christian basis and the church is ok with it being removed if society wants that.

Also, to address your point about self-defense, the church still views killing as a sin, even if it was justified.

Just war - OrthodoxWiki
Canon 13 of St. Basil
"Our Fathers did not consider the killings committed in the course of wars to be classifiable as murders at all, on the score, it seems to me, of allowing a pardon to men fighting in defense of sobriety and piety. Perhaps, though, it might be advisable to refuse them communion for three years, on the ground that they are not clean-handed."

St. Basil references the beginning of this canon to St. Athanasius in order to clarify and accurately interpret what was meant in his Letter to Amun (The Rudder). St. Basil the Great did not count the "shedding of blood" committed during wars as murder, but he does require the penitent to abstain from partaking of the Eucharist for three years. Although three years may seem harsh to us today, Fr. McGuckin states that this "was actually a commonly recognized sign of merciful leniency in the ancient rule book of the early Church."
 
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I'm not taking any "side" here - especially not at this point.

But just my impression of the series so far (I think I'm in 6) is that each point you mention is not so much an argument, but he's basically laying a foundation.

At least what I get out of where he goes from there, is that God did prescribe the death penalty in some circumstances, in opposition to the idea that it is simply "against God" to suggest it as a legitimate action.

The building blocks themselves began to make more sense as I saw them put together (not sense as in you must agree, but sense as in it's easier to see what he's saying).

And btw, they may not have transcribed it, but he was clear that he considers he might be wrong and that he might change his mind - because his mind has changed in the past. I don't think he's preaching so much from a position of "listen to me, I'm right" as much as he's trying to sort out and examine e everything.

My position so far ---- is that he's right, and there can be a place legitimately for the idea of the death penalty within Christianity - but I'm also inclined to think that with modern prison systems it shouldn't be necessary in order to protect the innocent.

The effect of evil in the world could be an argument, and so might punishment/retribution as a point of justice as well as fear of punishment as a deterrent - but I'm not convinced of that just yet.

I have now read two of the transcripts of the podcasts by Steve the Builder and will reply to them here.

Part 1 - this is not really an argument, just an introduction to the series with a bit about Steve's personal story. There's no coherent argument put forth, and no claim that one is put forth, so not too much to say here. I personally don't much care for the "hey I was young and dumb once, too, but now I'm older and I've worked in a difficult situation, so I was wrong then and now I'm right" kind of introduction, but let it stand - nothing terrible about the guy telling us some about his background.

Steve responds here to a pastoral letter from 1999 written by then-Bp Seraphim, the OCA Bishop of Ottowa and Canada. In this letter, Bp Seraphim says that he personally cannot square the death penalty with the Gospel.

Steve replies:



A couple problems here:

1) "These reflections are not written from a safe distance from human evil," as if then-Bishop (now Monk) Seraphim had never dealt with evil deeds performed by himself or other humans, when Steve shows no evidence that this is so. This is a pretty common trick used in (apparently) reasoned arguments - show yourself to be living in "the real world," as opposed to someone who disagrees with you and who, you imply, doesn't live in the real world (and therefore that person's opinion is to be discounted). However, this is not an argument. Even if Steve somehow showed that Bp Seraphim lived his life "a safe distance from human evil," that would not be an argument for the death penalty.

2) "but his statement can be viewed as the creed of the anti-death penalty position..." - Another instance of sleight of hand. There is no good reason to view a single pastoral letter by a hierarch as the creed of any position. In fact, the quoted text does not present much of an argument at all:



To summarize very briefly: "I cannot square support for death as a punishment for crime with my understanding of the Christian faith. I think it is better to minister to people who are in prison than to support the death penalty."

Now, although I am inclined to agree with the gist of Monk Seraphim's position, I cannot say that his letter functions as a creed for anything. It is grossly misleading for Steve to suggest that all one needs to do to overthrow Orthodox objections to the death penalty is to deal with the content of this letter.

Part 2 - Some of what Steve says here seems pointless to respond to from an Orthodox position, since he tries to talk about atheistic and Christian objections to the death penalty at the same time, and includes here some (to my mind, pointless, in an Orthodox context) talk about what is cheaper or might be cheaper, and so on.

What strikes me as worth responding to is his treatment of the story about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. First, Steve tells us that "This is the story about how God immediately strikes Ananaias dead before the congregation for lying about his tithe." Even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that God struck them dead for a punishment, which the text does not say (though I admit I'm not up on the history of Orthodox interpretation of this passage), then Steve says "While it was God who did the killing, St. Peter did not pray to God for mercy, clemency or life in prison for either of them."

So...what? I'm against the death penalty (so far, at least, but I haven't read to the end of the series), but if I see God strike anyone dead, I will be inclined to take that judgment as final and won't be asking for them to...be restored to life, or be restored to life and then imprisoned. What are we supposed to make of this, exactly? It seems that Steve means, but doesn't quite say, that this passage, in which two people are struck dead, means that people killing other people, at least for certain crimes, is okay. What crimes, exactly, then? Lying about income realized from the sale of land? Lying to Apostles? Do our bishops today count? What are we to take from this?

Steve then says "And St Luke records that the result was great fear came upon the Church and all who heard about it. I take that to be biblical language for “public capital punishment for lying to the apostles and the Church was a deterrent”. "

More sleight of hand. God striking someone dead is not capital punishment in the sense in which we humans need to discuss it. It is, literally, an act of God. It is beyond our likes and dislikes and quite beyond our ability to do anything about it. We cannot appeal to civil authorities or Apostles or anyone else, because the highest authority has already spoken. There is not much to say.

But then it gets worse, when Steve boldly interprets the passage to mean "public capital punishment for lying to the apostles and the Church was a deterrent," using the word "deterrent," so common in discussions of capital punishment in our day. You cannot just slip that in without extended argument to show that this is a valid interpretation and a valid connection. Whether he knows it or not, Steve is trying to associate the divine authority witnessed to in this story with modern, often not at all Christian, arguments for the death penalty. This is not acceptable and not honest.

I will respond to other parts as I have time.
 
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archer75

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I'm not taking any "side" here - especially not at this point.

But just my impression of the series so far (I think I'm in 6) is that each point you mention is not so much an argument, but he's basically laying a foundation.

At least what I get out of where he goes from there, is that God did prescribe the death penalty in some circumstances, in opposition to the idea that it is simply "against God" to suggest it as a legitimate action.

The building blocks themselves began to make more sense as I saw them put together (not sense as in you must agree, but sense as in it's easier to see what he's saying).

And btw, they may not have transcribed it, but he was clear that he considers he might be wrong and that he might change his mind - because his mind has changed in the past. I don't think he's preaching so much from a position of "listen to me, I'm right" as much as he's trying to sort out and examine e everything.

My position so far ---- is that he's right, and there can be a place legitimately for the idea of the death penalty within Christianity - but I'm also inclined to think that with modern prison systems it shouldn't be necessary in order to protect the innocent.

The effect of evil in the world could be an argument, and so might punishment/retribution as a point of justice as well as fear of punishment as a deterrent - but I'm not convinced of that just yet.
Surely he is laying a foundation. But since he broke it up over multiple podcasts, it seemed okay to post replies as I went.
 
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Surely he is laying a foundation. But since he broke it up over multiple podcasts, it seemed okay to post replies as I went.
Oh I don't blame you for the approach you're taking. :)

Just pointing out that it might not be too coherent to try to understand him in bits because of the way he has presented it. (Which is not to say I'm faulting him either - I think it was necessary for all his points.)
 
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