Orthodox Childfree

[joyfulthanks]

ContriteHeart,

If anything I said in this thread made you or other infertile people feel judged, I'm sincerely sorry. That wasn't and isn't my intention. I know that infertility must be a heavy cross to bear.

I would certainly be against judging anyone based on the number of kids that they have, since, as you say, we don't know what is behind it all and what is going on in their lives. I would never ever even advocate paying attention to the number of kids anyone has to make a moral judgment about that person. I have dear friends that suffer from infertility.

My point in this was only and ever about the morality of openness to children among married couples, and a Christian world-view about life and children. I think it's possible to make a judgment about the morality of an action (for example, contraception) without advocating making assumptions about individual persons, or even judging them when the facts are known.

This issue is very dear to my heart, because I have seen the effects of the world view that contraception engenders towards children.

Grace and peace,
John

Hi John,

I never took anything you said personally. As I said in my second post, I never thought anyone here was advocating judging infertile couples. I was just saying that in life, my experience has been that infertile couples are often misjudged and lumped in with those who decide not to have kids - based only on surface appearances.

I appreciate your stand for a Christian ethic when it comes to sexuality within marriage and openness to children. And I agree with you that it is possible (and important) to take a stand on an issue without judging individuals. However, in real life it doesn't always quite work out that way. People sometimes get very wrapped up in the rightness of certain ideas and become super zealous at judging anyone who doesn't seem to conform to those ideals. Sometimes, people (in this case, infertile people) innocently get caught in the crossfire. I just wanted to let people know that things are not always as they appear on the surface.

But I think that this applies to more than just this issue. I think in many issues it is important (as you also said) to separate standing for principles (which is important and right) and making judgments about individuals who do not appear to conform to those principles. I don't know about you guys, but my judgments of others have often later proved very wrong.

I am reminded of a story of a man who was sitting on the subway with a father and his children. The children were running wild, and the father did nothing to control or stop them. The man became very irritated, and finally said to the father, "Why don't you control your children! Can't you see they're bothering everyone!" To this, the father replied something like, "I'm sorry - I guess I just didn't notice. You see, we just came from the hospital where their mother just died after a long illness. I guess I was a little preoccupied."

Sometimes, we just don't have all the facts.

Thank you for your kindness, John. I was not offended or hurt in the least by anything you said.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound preachy or self-righteous in the above post or in my others. I am well-intentioned, but I still get it wrong a LOT!

 

[Philothei]

Do not worry Contrite heart and btw welcome to our Forum

Philothei

 

[127.0.0.1]

I will pose the question to you guys then: do you think it would be sinful ie wrong to use birth control if my wife only has a 50/50 chance of having a normal pregnancy?

I think this is a question to be discussed between you and God as well as your SF and your doctor.

I think whether you want to try again or not is a question that really out to be left of to you and maybe your SF if its necessary. Miracle births do and have happen to be sure. Of course, you may have a miraculous pregnancy and everything may go hunky dory, then again you may not. I'm not saying that it will go either way. So long as you prayerfully make your decision. It could be a sign from God to test your faith, then again it could be a sign from God that he has the perfect child for you to adopt or maybe God has different plans for you altogether.


Orthodox views:
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp

Talk with your doctor about your options as well as your SF.

(choose prayerfully. If you ever decide to use contraception, I highly encourage you to do some research/prayer to help you decide what will work for you.)

Disclaimer: Do not take my word for any of the information I provide.I'm neither a doctor nor a SF nor an official resource for anything pertaining to bc or anything else in the medical field. Always talk with your doctor, SF, God and anyone else whom it may be necessary to talk to. Remember that abortifacient means of contraception are indeed condemned by the Orthodox Church.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Sothron - I think the best answer might come from a "professional prayer warrior", and we don't have any of those here, TMK. Do you have a monastery nearby where you could spend a weekend in prayer and counsel with the holy monastics?

My deepest sympathies on you and your wife's loss - there is nothing worse than losing a child, nothing. May this little one's memory be eternal.

I don't know the answer to your question but I hope that you find solace and the path that you and Margaret are meant to trod. For what's it's worth, there are plenty of miracles out there, of women who were never supposed to be able to bear children, of pregnancies people thought would never come to term. You may or may not know the rather miraculous circumstances surrounding my own pregnancy, or the fact that my own mother was told not to carry me to term (she obviously did!) I don't know if that will be the path your own life takes or not, but wanted to mention it FWIW.

Nice seeing you again.

 

[Assisi]

My wife is in her mid thirties and we had tried for almost three years for a child. When she finally got pregnant we lost the baby this Jan. because it was a tubal pregnancy. The doctor said one of her tubes has an odd shape to it and while she adjusted it as best as she could the reality is that there is a 50/50 chance it would happen again.

We already lost what would have been our first child. I don't want to go through that pain again. I think we will try again but if it happens again can we be blamed for not wanting to go through it more times?

Sothron,
My husband and I prayed for you and your little family last night in our family prayers.

It has been over a year now since we lost our first child and I still feel the ache in my heart. Losing a child (in my experience especially your first child) will affect you forever. It is painful. I'll bet that that day in January feels like a scar on your very being. My day last February does.

I agree with the poster above me. The best thing you can do right now is throw yourself into prayer. Also get to the sacraments as often as possible and talk to your priest as much as possible. Offer this to God in prayer, and pray about it when you receive Him in communion. When I was pregnant with our first I had prayed in the words of Hannah,

For this child I prayed; and the Lord has granted me my petition which I made to him. Therefore I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he lives, he is lent to the Lord.

I didn't realise how totally I would have to give over the child I was carrying. After he died, I offered my fertility and my children to the Lord. I prayed for the strength to bear as many miscarriages as the Lord allowed me to have. It was really hard to pray that. After all this, my second miscarriage was still hard, but much easier than my first. A few months later I read a little further into Hannah's story

Then Eli would bless Elkanah and his wife and say, 'The Lord give you children by this woman for the loan which she lent to the Lord'; so then they would return to their home. And the lord visited Hannah and, and she conceived and bore three sons and two daughters.

I knew there was a good chance my story would not mirror Hannah's but when I read this I had to admit there was also a good chance that it would.
The reality is that you can't know about your own future. You may miscarry again and again, or you may have miracle after miracle. The important thing is to continue to allow God into your life, do not shut Him out in an attempt to shut out pain.

My advice is not to make any long term decisions right now. It's only been a couple of months since your world was turned upside down. Give it a chance to settle and take your time to heal before you decide about the possibility of future children.

 

[joyfulthanks]

I'm unsubscribing from this thread now, so if anyone responds to one of my posts, I'm not being rude - I just won't see it.

 

[skoi]

Sothron:
We'll pray for you and your wife. I lost a child after our oldest was born three months into the pregnancy. I was so worried about miscarrying again, and had so many doubts. Fortunately, I was able to carry to term. We figure the conception of our son was about the time his brother or sister would have been born.

It must be so much harder in some ways to lose a first child, giving you so much more uncertainty.

 

[Assisi]

I hope that post I made is ok. I wasn't intending to teach, just to put my experience out there in the hope that it may help Sothron.

To sum it up: don't hurry into a decision and talk to and pray with your priest and spiritual director.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

You're fine, Asissi, no worries.