Orthodox Bishops Gives Invocation at Democratic Convention

[MKJ]

My own feeling, as an Orthodox non-partisan in party politics, was that there wasn't anything particularly Orthodox about the prayer. My objection is that I saw nothing that could inspire people to move an inch toward God. Certainly, as words, the words were good. Not fearing to love our neighbor and so on are fine things, being part of things central to what we teach. But I do not see how anything could be taken by people outside the Church as either anything to make them curious about the Church or Who we are all called to; the words were well in the comfort zone of what all will say to themselves in both/all parties that they already stand for those things.

It IS good that there still IS an invocation, that at least the shred of tradition that reminds some of us that we ought to invoke God remains. But it seems to me that words that said some of those things should be accompanied by words that challenge the heart. Forget the politics. We are called to witness; there is a major opportunity, which must be used wisely, of course, and I feel that opportunity wasn't really used.

Does that make sense to anyone?

Perhaps the thought was not so much it was a prayer for the people at the convention to listen to, as a prayer to pray with them? If so, it would make sense to make it a prayer that they could pray along with even if they were not themselves Orthodox. It isn't the sort of place where there is a lot of time for people to reflect on the words at the moment.

 

[Protoevangel]

My own feeling, as an Orthodox non-partisan in party politics, was that there wasn't anything particularly Orthodox about the prayer. My objection is that I saw nothing that could inspire people to move an inch toward God. Certainly, as words, the words were good. Not fearing to love our neighbor and so on are fine things, being part of things central to what we teach. But I do not see how anything could be taken by people outside the Church as either anything to make them curious about the Church or Who we are all called to; the words were well in the comfort zone of what all will say to themselves in both/all parties that they already stand for those things.

It IS good that there still IS an invocation, that at least the shred of tradition that reminds some of us that we ought to invoke God remains. But it seems to me that words that said some of those things should be accompanied by words that challenge the heart. Forget the politics. We are called to witness; there is a major opportunity, which must be used wisely, of course, and I feel that opportunity wasn't really used.

Does that make sense to anyone?

Sometimes not swinging the truth like a warhammer is more beneficial.

You know, convince them they can let down their guard, then, *smack* right in the cranium! It's not all about picking your battles, knowing the best time to strike is part of a good strategy, too. Personally, I'll give Metropolitan Nicholas the benefit of the doubt... Unless you have good reason to assume otherwise. Maybe he felt it was time for a feint, not a killing blow.

 

[rusmeister]

Thanks, all. I didn't mean that he should come out preaching, I grant that any prayer that could be accepted by the ears of the hearers at all would take a lot of thought and care. It's obviously a challenge to get ANYTHING across to that audience, a fraction of which wants to eliminate invocations altogether.

I think, though, that the prayer SHOULD have been distinguishable - carefully, subtly, but still distinguishable - from what any modern liberal minister might havecsaid. And I think it wasn't.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Metropolitan Nicholas of the Greek Orthodox Diocese of Detroit, gave the opening invocation at the Democratic National Convention last night.

Oh...

This must be the Muslim my parents were telling me about. They said the DNC was going to start off with an hour of Muslim prayers...(cus FOX News said so). I'm guessing by Muslim prayers they just meant a Greek Orthodox Bishop.

 

[127.0.0.1]

President Clinton's speech, imho, was the greatest speech of the last decade. I was thoroughly impressed. Takes me back to my high school days in 1991 and 1992 when I was an intern volunteer at his campaign headquarters here in town....

People are saying that might be the best speech he's ever given. Probably part of the reason he remains one of the most popular Presidents of all time.

Funny thing was they were worried he wouldn't be able to measure up to Elizabeth Warren who'd gone just before him. Of course Elizabeth Warren's speech was just as incredible, but still, it was like an endless series of home-runs.

 

[Protoevangel]

After defending Metropolitan Nicholas above, Cardinal Timothy Dolan's closing prayer rips into the conscience of the DNC baby murderers.

Bravo, Cardinal Timothy! That speech really earned my respect.

Almighty God, father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, revealed to us so powerfully in your Son, Jesus Christ, we thank you for showering your blessings upon this our beloved nation. Bless all here present, and all across this great land, who work hard for the day when a greater portion of your justice, and a more ample measure of your care for the poor and suffering, may prevail in these United States. Help us to see that a society’s greatness is found above all in the respect it shown for the weakest and neediest among us.

We beseech you, almighty God to shed your grace on this noble experiment in ordered liberty, which began with the confident assertion of inalienable rights bestowed upon us by you: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Thus do we praise you for the gift of life. Grant us the courage to defend it, life, without which no other rights are secure. We ask your benediction on those waiting to be born, that they may be welcomed and protected. Strengthen our sick and our elders waiting to see your holy face at life’s end, that they may be accompanied by true compassion and cherished with the dignity due those who are infirm and fragile.

We praise and thank you for the gift of liberty. May this land of the free never lack those brave enough to defend our basic freedoms. Renew in all our people a profound respect for religious liberty: the first, most cherished freedom bequeathed upon us at our Founding. May our liberty be in harmony with truth; freedom ordered in goodness and justice. Help us live our freedom in faith, hope, and love. Make us ever-grateful for those who, for over two centuries, have given their lives in freedom’s defense; we commend their noble souls to your eternal care, as even now we beg the protection of your mighty arm upon our men and women in uniform.

We praise and thank you for granting us the life and the liberty by which we can pursue happiness. Show us anew that happiness is found only in respecting the laws of nature and of nature’s God. Empower us with your grace so that we might resist the temptation to replace the moral law with idols of our own making, or to remake those institutions you have given us for the nurturing of life and community. May we welcome those who yearn to breathe free and to pursue happiness in this land of freedom, adding their gifts to those whose families have lived here for centuries.

We praise and thank you for the American genius of government of the people, by the people and for the people. Oh God of wisdom, justice, and might, we ask your guidance for those who govern us: President Barack Obama, Vice President Joseph Biden, Congress, the Supreme Court, and all those, including Governor Mitt Romney and Congressman Paul Ryan, who seek to serve the common good by seeking public office. Make them all worthy to serve you by serving our country. Help them remember that the only just government is the government that serves its citizens rather than itself. With your grace, may all Americans choose wisely as we consider the future course of public policy.

And finally Lord, we beseech your benediction on all of us who depart from here this evening, and on all those, in every land, who yearn to conduct their lives in freedom and justice. We beg you to remember, as we pledge to remember, those who are not free; those who suffer for freedom’s cause; those who are poor, out of work, needy, sick, or alone; those who are persecuted for their religious convictions, those still ravaged by war.

And most of all, God Almighty, we thank you for the great gift of our beloved country.

For we are indeed “one nation under God,” and “in God we trust.”

So dear God, bless America. You who live and reign forever and ever.

Amen!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

DNC baby-murderers?

After defending Metropolitan Nicholas above, Cardinal Timothy Dolan's closing prayer rips into the conscience of the DNC baby murderers.

Bravo, Cardinal Timothy! That speech really earned my respect.

 

[Protoevangel]

DNC baby-murderers?

Yep. Their platform is pro-abortion. Supporting them is sharing in the blood on the hands of the abortions they actively campaign for. There is no record or report of Adolph Hitler ever having personally killed anyone personally, either. Charlie Manson didn't kill anyone either. The blood is still on their hands.

Indeed, Republicans share their guilt, as does everyone who does not actively work/vote to abolish the barbaric practice.

And yes, I engaged Godwin's Law entirely on purpose.

 

[rusmeister]

After defending Metropolitan Nicholas above, Cardinal Timothy Dolan's closing prayer rips into the conscience of the DNC baby murderers.

Bravo, Cardinal Timothy! That speech really earned my respect.

Yeah, I saw that on FB and feel the same way. THAT was something that I would have liked to hear our Met. say.

 

[Protoevangel]

Yeah, I saw that on FB and feel the same way. THAT was something that I would have liked to hear our Met. say.

I really try to give our Hierarchy the benefit of the doubt... But after hearing how brave, yet still respectful Cardinal Timothy was... I'm starting to think you were right all along.

 

[Ignatius21]

I understand what you're saying rus. I thought that too at first. Ultimately, however, I think if there had been more explicit Orthodoxy in the prayer it wouldn't have been allowed at all and so even the chance of having a bishop appear on the screen at all would've been lost. A tiny step in the right direction is still a step in the right direction. In this post-Christian culture we have to grasp at what we can and work with where people are in order to bring them closer to God. It's going to be slower than we could've done back when morality, truth, and faith meant something to the majority of people, but that's the reality of the situation.

On the other hand it appears to me that it could do more harm than good...in the sense that people will likely think "Oh, here's an Orthodox bishop...he's tolerant enough to think that all religions are equal," since that (not to start fights) is a much more commonly held belief on the "left" than on the "right."

It's also ironic that, while people on the right are far less likely to think along those lines, they're sure keeping quiet on their candidate's religion this time around...even people like Huckabee saying things like "He's not an evangelical, but..." and Ryan "...we go to different churches, but..."

Quite clearly implying that Mormonism is just another Christian denomination. The zealous ideologues on the right seem quite happy to become pragmatic when it means they might win an election.

Frankly I'm a man without a party, and have been for some time. I despise the tactics and infantile behavior of those on the right, and I will not vote for the blatantly immoral and unethical policies of the left towards human life. And I've had my fill of vapid, misleading strings of buzzwords and slogans that pass for actual debate.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Without getting into a heated Dan-Scott World War III, I'll just say that politics, imho, isn't that simple. The Republicans outsource jobs overseas, seek to strip the elderly of safety nets and important entitlements, favor the elite 1% rich power-broker oligarchs, love to start useless wars at the drop of a hat, and could care less about humanity post-fetus. They don't want the working man to have a quality of life, could care less about anything save $$$$ and crooked Wall Street brokers and insurance company goons. They do much harm and have brought havoc to the world imho. But I don't believe that every Republican voter is somehow a warmongering, rich-pandering, elitist money-grubbing selfish operative. I can understand why some people vote Republican and, while I wouldn't vote for Romney if you paid me, I understand why some feel they need to vote for the guy.

The Democrats are largely pro-choice, yes. Voting Republican doesn't somehow ensure Roe v. Wade will be overturned and to imply that someone voting Democrat is a blood-stained murderer, that smacks of what I remember hearing in the days of Catholic Answers, Father Frank Pavone, and the Pharisaic stuff we had crammed down our throats by Catholic apologists years back. It's one reason I couldn't take the cyber Catholic culture in general. My observation is that, while many Orthodox are Republicans, many are Democrats, and many Libertarians, etc., none of them make charges of blood on hands or evil toward the other political choices. In the end, all political groups fall short of the glory of God. We all make our choices, but need to respect each other and our reasonings. I respect the pro-life position as I'm opposed to abortion. Some people believe voting GOP will ban it, make all abortions disappear, and that somehow giving rich people tax cuts and going to war in Syria will bring about a life-respecting civilization. I don't happen to share that notion any more than I think passing out free contraception will make us a utopia or that abortion is a "choice." We must rely on Christ Our Savior. We can't put this must trust in princes, in sons of men. When we think a political party will save us all, we're in trouble imho.

Likening a Democratic voter to Manson or Hitler is completely over-the-top and not something I'm accustomed to hearing from my Orthodox brethren. I find Republican voting to be foolhardy, but not diabolical.

Yep. Their platform is pro-abortion. Supporting them is sharing in the blood on the hands of the abortions they actively campaign for. There is no record or report of Adolph Hitler ever having personally killed anyone personally, either. Charlie Manson didn't kill anyone either. The blood is still on their hands.

Indeed, Republicans share their guilt, as does everyone who does not actively work/vote to abolish the barbaric practice.

And yes, I engaged Godwin's Law entirely on purpose.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Without getting into a heated Dan-Scott World War III, I'll just say that politics, imho, isn't that simple. The Republicans outsource jobs overseas, seek to strip the elderly of safety nets and important entitlements, favor the elite 1% rich power-broker oligarchs, love to start useless wars at the drop of a hat, and could care less about humanity post-fetus. They don't want the working man to have a quality of life, could care less about anything save $$$$ and crooked Wall Street brokers and insurance company goons. They do much harm and have brought havoc to the world imho. But I don't believe that every Republican voter is somehow a warmongering, rich-pandering, elitist money-grubbing selfish operative. I can understand why some people vote Republican and, while I wouldn't vote for Romney if you paid me, I understand why some feel they need to vote for the guy.

The Democrats are largely pro-choice, yes. Voting Republican doesn't somehow ensure Roe v. Wade will be overturned and to imply that someone voting Democrat is a blood-stained murderer, that smacks of what I remember hearing in the days of Catholic Answers, Father Frank Pavone, and the Pharisaic stuff we had crammed down our throats by Catholic apologists years back. It's one reason I couldn't take the cyber Catholic culture in general. My observation is that, while many Orthodox are Republicans, many are Democrats, and many Libertarians, etc., none of them make charges of blood on hands or evil toward the other political choices. In the end, all political groups fall short of the glory of God. We all make our choices, but need to respect each other and our reasonings. I respect the pro-life position as I'm opposed to abortion. Some people believe voting GOP will ban it, make all abortions disappear, and that somehow giving rich people tax cuts and going to war in Syria will bring about a life-respecting civilization. I don't happen to share that notion any more than I think passing out free contraception will make us a utopia or that abortion is a "choice." We must rely on Christ Our Savior. We can't put this must trust in princes, in sons of men. When we think a political party will save us all, we're in trouble imho.

Likening a Democratic voter to Manson or Hitler is completely over-the-top and not something I'm accustomed to hearing from my Orthodox brethren. I find Republican voting to be foolhardy, but not diabolical.

Feeling what you said. I was surprised seeing many Republicans trying to take "moral high ground" with Democrats over the years by claiming they alone were for "pro-life"--despite the fact that there were extensive amounts of Republicans who were Pro-Choice (the former governor, Arnold, being one of them) and that many in their policies supported abortion by default due to the ways impoverishment often impacts decisions to abort...and many have noted that for awhile concerning the need to focus on economic support for pregnant women and greater access to adoption. Something many social programs have been good at which were in their minds of many Republicans as needing to be "cut" when it came to reducing government programs/spending.

And I'm still amazed at how many are unaware at the many Republicans who've worked with Democrats when it comes to being against abortion and zealously Pro-Life. The group known as "Democrats For Life of America" comes to mind and has been one of the most consistent/aggressive in calling out things in the Democratic party as well as fighting for the unborn...

Pro-Life Democrats
Pro-Life Democrats II​

Pro-Life Champions Dr. Alveda King & Rep. Chris Smith Speak on Abortion, Euthanasia and Healthcare​

It was brought up before in discussion by others, as seen here:

I would like to point out that there is a pro-life wing of the Democratic Party called Democrats for Life :

Democrats For Life of America

There are some members of this in positions of influence. I was a believer in the GOP for many years (I voted GOP in every election 1976-2001--I could not vote the George W after his first term), and I am very aware that there is a pretty influential pro-choice wing of the GOP as well. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is a big part of the reason why the GOP was never able to really pass any legislation to end abortion or greatly restrict it even when they had control of all branches of the federal government--they didn't even have enough support from their own party.

Democrats for Life of America....truly beautiful people who've done much in regards to valuing life...and going against the sterotype often brought up by many conservatives that only GOP/Republicans are against abortion or doing what is practical in ending it.

I was surprised how many serve in our federal legislative branch and who are running for office now. Some of them are pretty well-known people.

 

[MrJim]

<snip>
President Clinton's speech, imho, was the greatest speech of the last decade. I was thoroughly impressed. Takes me back to my high school days in 1991 and 1992 when I was an intern volunteer at his campaign headquarters here in town....

I'm an Ozark Missourian~grew up near the Arkansas border when Clinton & Co were running Little Rock~~~I remember when I first heard he was running for Prez I told folks around here in PA that there's no way that character would ever get elected with all the stuff he was involved in back in Arkansas but I underestimated the American public

 

[Protoevangel]

Without getting into a heated Dan-Scott World War III, I'll just say that politics, imho, isn't that simple. The Republicans outsource jobs overseas, seek to strip the elderly of safety nets and important entitlements, favor the elite 1% rich power-broker oligarchs, love to start useless wars at the drop of a hat, and could care less about humanity post-fetus. They don't want the working man to have a quality of life, could care less about anything save $$$$ and crooked Wall Street brokers and insurance company goons. They do much harm and have brought havoc to the world imho. But I don't believe that every Republican voter is somehow a warmongering, rich-pandering, elitist money-grubbing selfish operative. I can understand why some people vote Republican and, while I wouldn't vote for Romney if you paid me, I understand why some feel they need to vote for the guy.

The Democrats are largely pro-choice, yes. Voting Republican doesn't somehow ensure Roe v. Wade will be overturned and to imply that someone voting Democrat is a blood-stained murderer, that smacks of what I remember hearing in the days of Catholic Answers, Father Frank Pavone, and the Pharisaic stuff we had crammed down our throats by Catholic apologists years back. It's one reason I couldn't take the cyber Catholic culture in general. My observation is that, while many Orthodox are Republicans, many are Democrats, and many Libertarians, etc., none of them make charges of blood on hands or evil toward the other political choices. In the end, all political groups fall short of the glory of God. We all make our choices, but need to respect each other and our reasonings. I respect the pro-life position as I'm opposed to abortion. Some people believe voting GOP will ban it, make all abortions disappear, and that somehow giving rich people tax cuts and going to war in Syria will bring about a life-respecting civilization. I don't happen to share that notion any more than I think passing out free contraception will make us a utopia or that abortion is a "choice." We must rely on Christ Our Savior. We can't put this must trust in princes, in sons of men. When we think a political party will save us all, we're in trouble imho.

Likening a Democratic voter to Manson or Hitler is completely over-the-top and not something I'm accustomed to hearing from my Orthodox brethren. I find Republican voting to be foolhardy, but not diabolical.

Who suggested voting Republican? Their candidate is pro-abortion as well. He just hides it behind a flimsy facade. And yes, they are warmongering; slightly worse then the Democrats.

But I don't believe that every Republican voter is somehow a warmongering, rich-pandering, elitist money-grubbing selfish operative.

Each voter is guilty of the evil they support with their vote.

Most are unconscious to the evil their votes support (whether willfully or genuinely). So personal culpability may be mitigated, but that does not lessen the innocent blood crying out for justice. We can only pray for mercy on them and ourselves. I have supported both Democrats and Republicans in the past, even after knowing the atrocities their parties support, so I am the first in need of mercy.

I find Republican voting to be foolhardy, but not diabolical.

I find it to be both.


We should vote with fear and trembling, because Democracy is a dangerous thing. Even if the elections truly mean nothing in terms of who is elected, and what policies are put in place, we are responsible for the evil we support.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Really? I still think Clinton was the best president we've had in 50 years. I'm thoroughly impressed with his leadership. Big fan. I don't approve of his private life choices at times, but I didn't elect him for a libido. I think he's a good man whose done a few dumb things but overall took the country in an awesome direction. I wish we had him back.

I worked for his campaign in high school. I couldn't vote yet. Go Bubba!

I'm an Ozark Missourian~grew up near the Arkansas border when Clinton & Co were running Little Rock~~~I remember when I first heard he was running for Prez I told folks around here in PA that there's no way that character would ever get elected with all the stuff he was involved in back in Arkansas but I underestimated the American public

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I'm not a one-issue voter. Never have been. Don't plan to be. Abortion isn't a political thing. We can ban it all day long, but if women AND MEN are not convicted as to the evils and perils of it, they will abort. No law or amendment or vote will change that. We need as Christians to stop it through our personal witness, not some political checking a box next to a candidate's name. The idea that my vote will stop abortion, imho, is unrealistic, so I don't attach any condemnation to anyone's choices personally. Roe v. Wade will never be overturned, period.

Who suggested voting Republican? Their candidate is pro-abortion as well. He just hides it behind a flimsy facade. And yes, they are warmongering; slightly worse then the Democrats.


Each voter is guilty of the evil they support with their vote.

Most are unconscious to the evil their votes support (whether willfully or genuinely). So personal culpability may be mitigated, but that does not lessen the innocent blood crying out for justice. We can only pray for mercy on them and ourselves. I have supported both Democrats and Republicans in the past, even after knowing the atrocities their parties support, so I am the first in need of mercy.


I find it to be both.


We should vote with fear and trembling, because Democracy is a dangerous thing. Even if the elections truly mean nothing in terms of who is elected, and what policies are put in place, we are responsible for the evil we support.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Without getting into a heated Dan-Scott World War III, I'll just say that politics, imho, isn't that simple. The Republicans outsource jobs overseas, seek to strip the elderly of safety nets and important entitlements, favor the elite 1% rich power-broker oligarchs, love to start useless wars at the drop of a hat, and could care less about humanity post-fetus. They don't want the working man to have a quality of life, could care less about anything save $$$$ and crooked Wall Street brokers and insurance company goons. They do much harm and have brought havoc to the world imho. But I don't believe that every Republican voter is somehow a warmongering, rich-pandering, elitist money-grubbing selfish operative. I can understand why some people vote Republican and, while I wouldn't vote for Romney if you paid me, I understand why some feel they need to vote for the guy.

The Democrats are largely pro-choice, yes. Voting Republican doesn't somehow ensure Roe v. Wade will be overturned and to imply that someone voting Democrat is a blood-stained murderer, that smacks of what I remember hearing in the days of Catholic Answers, Father Frank Pavone, and the Pharisaic stuff we had crammed down our throats by Catholic apologists years back. It's one reason I couldn't take the cyber Catholic culture in general. My observation is that, while many Orthodox are Republicans, many are Democrats, and many Libertarians, etc., none of them make charges of blood on hands or evil toward the other political choices. In the end, all political groups fall short of the glory of God. We all make our choices, but need to respect each other and our reasonings. I respect the pro-life position as I'm opposed to abortion. Some people believe voting GOP will ban it, make all abortions disappear, and that somehow giving rich people tax cuts and going to war in Syria will bring about a life-respecting civilization. I don't happen to share that notion any more than I think passing out free contraception will make us a utopia or that abortion is a "choice." We must rely on Christ Our Savior. We can't put this must trust in princes, in sons of men. When we think a political party will save us all, we're in trouble imho.

Likening a Democratic voter to Manson or Hitler is completely over-the-top and not something I'm accustomed to hearing from my Orthodox brethren. I find Republican voting to be foolhardy, but not diabolical.

You've expressed pretty succinctly why I jumped ship from the GOP and joined the Dems. I grew up in an extremely conservative home (at least when it comes to social and conservative matters), viewing all Democrat politicians and policies as inherently twisted. Since I left the nest though I've really taken it upon myself to understand both sides as best as I can, and as a result I find I side more with the left than the right.

Nonetheless, I still respect Republicans opinions and their right to have them, though admittedly less so when that respect isn't reciprocated.

I like to think of myself as more or less pro-life, but only if I oppose the death penalty too. For years I took the typical GOP platform of pro-life, except for convicts. I know there's the whole "but they're guilty, babies aren't" argument, but to me blood is blood. As satisfying as it might be in my flesh and blood to "throw the switch" on a serial killer or rapist, I can't honestly believe that Christ would do the same.

I wouldn't say I'm staunchly pro-life though, I can see situations where aborting might have merit. I don't say that lightly either, but I try my best to put myself in those situations. For example, if my wife was pregnant and was met with life threatening complications from the pregnancy, complications that would be eliminated only through an abortion then I may then give the nod to go through with it. It's still a terrible choice to make, I know, but if I have a chance to save my wife's life I'd take it. That's probably easier to say now because I'm not a parent, but that's my present position.

Feeling what you said. I was surprised seeing many Republicans trying to take "moral high ground" with Democrats over the years by claiming they alone were for "pro-life"--despite the fact that there were extensive amounts of Republicans who were Pro-Choice (the former governor, Arnold, being one of them) and that many in their policies supported abortion by default due to the ways impoverishment often impacts decisions to abort...and many have noted that for awhile concerning the need to focus on economic support for pregnant women and greater access to adoption. Something many social programs have been good at which were in their minds of many Republicans as needing to be "cut" when it came to reducing government programs/spending.

And I'm still amazed at how many are unaware at the many Republicans who've worked with Democrats when it comes to being against abortion and zealously Pro-Life. The group known as "Democrats For Life of America" comes to mind and has been one of the most consistent/aggressive in calling out things in the Democratic party as well as fighting for the unborn...

Pro-Life Democrats
Pro-Life Democrats II​

Pro-Life Champions Dr. Alveda King & Rep. Chris Smith Speak on Abortion, Euthanasia and Healthcare​

It was brought up before in discussion by others, as seen here:

Not to mention what, IMHO, the dilemma of advocating the death penalty in the same breath as calling for a ban on abortion. That was a hypocrisy for me that I couldn't cope with any longer.

Really? I still think Clinton was the best president we've had in 50 years. I'm thoroughly impressed with his leadership. Big fan. I don't approve of his private life choices at times, but I didn't elect him for a libido. I think he's a good man whose done a few dumb things but overall took the country in an awesome direction. I wish we had him back.

I worked for his campaign in high school. I couldn't vote yet. Go Bubba!

I used to be such a Clinton hater, but I'm really starting to respect him as a leader. I enjoyed the parts of his speech at the DNC that I saw. My political science professor had a really interesting point, she said "Clinton was one of the most brilliant leaders to occupy the Oval Office, but he was emotionally unintelligent." A really astute observation that I hadn't considered before. I'm actually probably going to make him the focus of a series of essays I'll be writing this semester, since I never really got to know him for his actual presidency, he was always "the president who had an affair with Monica Lewinsky".

I'm not a one-issue voter. Never have been. Don't plan to be. Abortion isn't a political thing. We can ban it all day long, but if women AND MEN are not convicted as to the evils and perils of it, they will abort. No law or amendment or vote will change that. We need as Christians to stop it through our personal witness, not some political checking a box next to a candidate's name. The idea that my vote will stop abortion, imho, is unrealistic, so I don't attach any condemnation to anyone's choices personally. Roe v. Wade will never be overturned, period.

Well said.

This may or may not be related to your post, but I've been mulling over the hypocrisy in our country by Christians who demand that our policy makers institute thus-and-so vis-à-vis Christian values, yet utterly cry foul the moment our government has something to say about us. It's like some of us don't understand exactly how the separation of church and state is supposed to work and so we only want it so long as we can push our agenda through but forget about a symbiosis.

 

[MrJim]

Who suggested voting Republican? Their candidate is pro-abortion as well. He just hides it behind a flimsy facade. And yes, they are warmongering; slightly worse then the Democrats.


Each voter is guilty of the evil they support with their vote.

Most are unconscious to the evil their votes support (whether willfully or genuinely). So personal culpability may be mitigated, but that does not lessen the innocent blood crying out for justice. We can only pray for mercy on them and ourselves. I have supported both Democrats and Republicans in the past, even after knowing the atrocities their parties support, so I am the first in need of mercy.


I find it to be both.


We should vote with fear and trembling, because Democracy is a dangerous thing. Even if the elections truly mean nothing in terms of who is elected, and what policies are put in place, we are responsible for the evil we support.

 

[KatherineS]

...But I don't believe that every Republican voter is somehow a warmongering, rich-pandering, elitist money-grubbing selfish operative. I can understand why some people vote Republican and, while I wouldn't vote for Romney if you paid me, I understand why some feel they need to vote for the guy.

The Democrats are largely pro-choice, yes. Voting Republican doesn't somehow ensure Roe v. Wade will be overturned and to imply that someone voting Democrat is a blood-stained murderer, that smacks of what I remember hearing in the days of Catholic Answers, Father Frank Pavone, and the Pharisaic stuff we had crammed down our throats by Catholic apologists years back. It's one reason I couldn't take the cyber Catholic culture in general. My observation is that, while many Orthodox are Republicans, many are Democrats, and many Libertarians, etc., none of them make charges of blood on hands or evil toward the other political choices. In the end, all political groups fall short of the glory of God. We all make our choices, but need to respect each other and our reasonings. I respect the pro-life position as I'm opposed to abortion. Some people believe voting GOP will ban it, make all abortions disappear, and that somehow giving rich people tax cuts and going to war in Syria will bring about a life-respecting civilization. I don't happen to share that notion any more than I think passing out free contraception will make us a utopia or that abortion is a "choice." We must rely on Christ Our Savior. We can't put this must trust in princes, in sons of men. When we think a political party will save us all, we're in trouble imho.

Likening a Democratic voter to Manson or Hitler is completely over-the-top and not something I'm accustomed to hearing from my Orthodox brethren. I find Republican voting to be foolhardy, but not diabolical.

Thank you for those kind and thoughtful words. While I plan to vote for President Obama, I can (and have) taken Cardinal Dolan's prayer and prayed it myself. When I do so, I embrace all of it, not bolding parts that affirm the beauty of life and leaving unbolded the parts of the prayer referencing the poor.