Orthodox Beleivers in Y'shua

[SonWorshipper]

I have a question. I have seen quite a few that fall into this catagory

1. Jewish by birth
2. Believe in Y'shua HaMoschiach
3. Continue worship in orthodox or Hasiddic Synagogue

How is this reconciled? If you believe in Messiah Y'shua but attend services where he is rejected............................?

 

[simchat_torah]

where does one see the messiah more clearly?


in 'church' where his very nature (torah) is rejected? Or in synagouge where his very nature (torah) is honored?

Granted, the synagouge may not know his name, but they know him more intimately than your average goy!
Does this make sense?

 

[SonWorshipper]

Come on Yafet, this is the MJ forum, I certainly wasn't speaking of a church ( shutter) but a Messianic Synagogue, where He not only is recognized but uplifted and the center of our services.

I dare say you wouldn't find much of really who he was in a church although I have seen that many Jewish believers find something there) more than likely it is in the groups that mix ancient temple rites with pagan ones.

 

[simchat_torah]

I dunno....

I don't have any problem with it... Nor did the apostles in Acts. They continued to go to the synagouges and didn't create a seperate 'congregation' just for the 'believers in the messiah'. They did however hold bible studies in their own homes. But they continued to go to the synagouge.

What is the point of the synagouge anyway? We are commanded to gather as a community to:
1) Hear the Torah on the Sabbath
2) and secondarily to Worship

Does one find this in a synagouge? Abo****ely.


As well, I think that the conclusion in Acts 15 was necessary. HaShem knew that there would be a great chasm in the unity of his people if they did not follow his sound advice.
James' decision at the Beit Din:
Acts 15
"19And so my judgment is that we should stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God,20except that we should write to them and tell them to abstain from eating meat sacrificed to idols, from sexual immorality, and from consuming blood or eating the meat of strangled animals.21For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations"

What was required of a 'saved' one? Yes, the basic and essential step as a G-d fearer (gentile who worships HaShem) is to first turn to the Noachide laws....

But then what? Is that it?

I believe that Ya'acov (James) was basically saying "Start with these steps, then you will learn the rest as you go to synagouge on the sabbath and hear the Torah."

See verse 21?
"21For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations"

G-d knew that a division would become a chasm if we seperated ourselves from Israel/Jews and worshipped outside of the synagouge.


Again, the Apostles had no problem with worshipping in the synagouge, nor do I.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

heh, hard to do since he is torah...

but what do you mean pray?

 

[SonWorshipper]

I guess what I am thinking about it this woman I meet that belonged to a Ultra Orthodox ( Leb) synagogue but came to belief in Y'shua but was afraid to tell anyone. She continued going there and was very confused.

It brings to mind Matthew 10

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

He goes on to explain:
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

 

[simchat_torah]

I would say for her it is critical that she would form relationships with other messianic believers. I would not encourage her to leave her synagouge though.

 

[SonWorshipper]

What about the confession before men? I don't think that meant just other believers, for what good would that be? That would be like treating your neighbor as yourself to mean only your brethern, not the Samarian's as Y'shua pointed out. Or another time when we are exorted to love our enemies, for if we only love those who love us we are no better than the heathen.

 

[simchat_torah]

lol, now I'm lost.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Gosh, I sure hope not! Come back here and I will try and explain.

What I was saying is that she denies any belief in Messiah to her family, her friends and other congregants so then wouldn't that be what Y'shua is speaking about in Matt.10? For if we don't proclaim him before men ( have no shame in our beleif in Messiah) he will have no shame in proclaiming us to be his to the Father?

 

[sojeru]

in her case she MUST BE SNEAKY.
VERY STEALTH like in her dealings, but never to be afraid.
ALL SHE HAS TO DO in get into discussions with the women. She doesnt have to mention the name at all- but if her knowledge is well in Torah,Talmud and Messiah- she will know how to deal in discussion.

forexample.
She could read about
"when Joshua had ordered the Israeli men not to take pagan wives. Yet one man had disobeyed and did the such act of taking the woman into his tent and sleep with her.
Joshua has taken the spear and drove it through the tent were the woman and Israeli were commiting the act and pinned them both together in the act.

And this one act of Joshua, two wicked people being killed, drove the notion of doing this sin, and to obey joshua's words was made sure in the hearts of all israel.

How much more, would it be assured to obey G-D, to stop the sins of the people if one righteous man was killed?"

see, things like this would be awesome indeed within the speech between the women.

she shouldnt be afraid at all, but as Simchat said, she need not leave her synagogue- but join herself with other believers.
especially ones of age and in the same belief, ORTHODOX and believes. She will find much more help in that.

Not to down on messianic judaism- but most of their synagogues have a horrible mix, at least in south florida.
There is only one that is strictly orthodox, holds onto the nazarean codocil, yet have a few strange beliefs.
This is however, a true jewish synagogue.

shalom u'bracha

 

[sojeru]

Hi P4I

She's wondering how her friend's attending her synagogue is Biblically sound since there is a verse that says "If you deny your Father before men, your Father will deny you before all men."

there are many orthodox jews that keep quiet in the synagogue.
That doesnt mean that they DENY him in anyway.
It only means that they keep quiet.

However, if asked, "do you believe that this Y'shu/Y'shukha is Messiah?"
and then they deny, then they have a problem.
but I do know for a fact many would stand for him when asked.
so just because her friend stay silent about her faith in messiah doesnt mean that she should leave or is guilty of denying HaShem in any sence at all.
But what does her friend consider on doing after consulting HaShem and his torah/Word and prayer?
be it any decision which can be millions that she can chose from- she can stay silent, she can leave- which would be a horrible mistake for her, she can be stealth like in her dealings.
Its up to HaShem and her and the GOOD council given to her.

 

[simchat_torah]

there are many orthodox jews that keep quiet in the synagogue.
That doesnt mean that they DENY him in anyway

I agree...

they are merely avoiding persecution.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Ah, but this then brings to mind where Y'shua said ( right before telling them that he DID NOT come to destroy the law or the prophets,) to not hide your light under a bushel. Now Mashiach is the light of the world right? so wouldn't keeping quiet and not sharing the good news be the same thing?


If you are salt how can you add flavor if you stay in the shaker?

 

[sojeru]

Messiah is the Torah, the light-
WE MUST SHINE (in action) our light
which will lead to the such.
REMEMBER we must be sneaky and loving, Messiah said it.
who wants persecution?
NO ONE- not even messiah himself- but if and when we recieve it- then glory him.
It is not time yet to run around in the synagogues and proclaim the such.
its not yet time
I wonder if you yourself would run up in an orthodox synagogue and then have the confidence to be counted worthy for the act that you have done about trying to convert in the synagogue.
The synagogue is not meant for that at all.

The light is the acts of messiah/Torah in us.
This light is HaShem
nothing more will bring other jews to us and Messiah's way.

 

[iitb]

Ah, but this then brings to mind where Y'shua said ( right before telling them that he DID NOT come to destroy the law or the prophets,) to not hide your light under a bushel. Now Mashiach is the light of the world right? so wouldn't keeping quiet and not sharing the good news be the same thing?

14You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Well, light is a reoccurring theme in the Tanakh, and it is usually a metaphor for "Torah." So, if he's saying that we are to present Torah to the world, can't that be accomplished in an Orthodox Synagogue?

Honestly, I have a little trouble with the Torah/Messiah balance at times. If they are one in the same, what's the point of having both? Not that I'm rejecting either, but it's a little confusing at times...

 

[iitb]

Okay, this is a thread from last September that got derailed and eventually had to be closed. However, due to the fact that this is a very pertinent topic in Messianic Judaism, I'm re-opening it.

Everybody play nice.

 

[yod]

I met a guy in Seattle last November calling himself Rabbi Cohen who attended Beit Tikveh there...

at first I thought he was our own Rabbi Cohen of Beit Tikvah (but he's in California) so I sat down and had a long talk with him. He was training in an orthodox Yeshiva in Jerusalem when the question came up of what to do when christians would say that Yeshua is the Messiah. The teacher had the bright idea of asking Ha Shem if Yeshua is indeed the Messiah....so they prayed and asked the Lord that question.

this guy is now a believer because he says that they all heard an audible voice saying "yes" to the question. They repeated it because they could not believe they were hearing the answer and again heard an audible voice. This man tells me that there are many Orthodox rabbis in Jerusalem who either believe and are quiet about it, or they know and don't want to admit that Yeshua is the Messiah.

I've tried to get Rabbi Cohen to come on here and tell his story but he hasn't joined to list yet. He makes some cool tie-on tzit-tzit that you can put on your belt loop. I'm trying to get some in neon colors.

 

[BenTsion]

What about the confession before men?

I believe confession before men has more to do with our acts than with wearing a
t-shirt saying 'I love Yeshua'. Remember that Mashiach said we'd be known by our
fruits. She doesn't have to rub it to other people's face. She shouldn't deny it if she
were asked, but I seriously doubt people walk around the synagogue asking each and
every person whether they believe in Yeshua or not. I do however believe it is best
if she could find a group of Messianic believers that could support her through prayer
and study so that SHE could be a light to the others who attend the Ultra Ortodox
synagogue.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[yod]

Ah, but this then brings to mind where Y'shua said ( right before telling them that he DID NOT come to destroy the law or the prophets,) to not hide your light under a bushel. Now Mashiach is the light of the world right? so wouldn't keeping quiet and not sharing the good news be the same thing?

not necessarily

...but at some point it will become impossible to deny Yeshua if real faith exists. At that time, she may be forced out of the synagogue but even that will be to the glory of her Messiah if it done because she is holding fast to the testimony of Yeshua. If she handles things with grace and love everyone will see her conviction and respect her for it. They might even ask how she is able to love those who hate her and despitefully use her. ?

Leaving her people without a word would send a very different message.