OrthoCliches #1: "Ancestral Sin"

TheLostCoin

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Sorry to backtrack, but do we know when the West began using azymes? I was actually looking just now for an Armenian source I once read that contained pre-Chalcedon quotes confirming the Armenian use of unleavened bread as being from before the schism, and while I couldn't find it, I did find this book that seems to suggest (at least from its blurb) that the Eastern Orthodox critique of the Latin West for using azymes grew out of the earlier Byzantine critique of the Armenians as heretics, but I can't tell from how it is phrased there whether it is suggesting that before that time (c. 11th century) the Latins weren't known to have used azymes. So I'm wondering if this is one of those things like the sign of the cross where the West used to do it the 'Byzantine' way but then switched at some point, or if the West used azymes long before the Chalcedonians' eventual schism from each other around that time. Can someone clarify for me, please?

According to the work of Father Jungman in his book "The Mass of the Roman Rite: Its Origins and Development," unleavened bread first appeared in the 9th century by means of various ordinances, but it didn't become accepted by the Roman Church in toto until a bit after the Great Schism. He argues that the positions of those who hold that the Western Church has always used unleavened bread is not a tenable or historical position to hold.

However, there are some who disagree. Jean Mabillon, a 16th century Benedictine scholar, as well as Thomas Aquinas, argue the West has always used unleavened bread. Thomas Aquinas goes so far as to say that the East originally used unleavened bread and switched to leavened bread because there was a Judaizing heresy in one region which spread to the other Eastern Churches.
 
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ArmyMatt

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According to the work of Father Jungman in his book "The Mass of the Roman Rite: Its Origins and Development," unleavened bread first appeared in the 9th century by means of various ordinances, but it didn't become accepted by the Roman Church in toto until a bit after the Great Schism. He argues that the positions of those who hold that the Western Church has always used unleavened bread is not a tenable or historical position to hold.

However, there are some who disagree. Jean Mabillon, a 16th century Benedictine scholar, as well as Thomas Aquinas, argue the West has always used unleavened bread. Thomas Aquinas goes so far as to say that the East originally used unleavened bread and switched to leavened bread because there was a Judaizing heresy in one region which spread to the other Eastern Churches.

except I am pretty sure the Didache affirms leavened bread. not to mention the ancient way of receiving communion supports leavened bread.
 
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Barney2.0

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there is still no evidence Abel made a sin offering. and you just said a few posts ago that the Holy Innocents were to young to sin,
Abel was making the same offering Adam made which was a sin offering. I already gave the verses for you to read. The Holy Innocents being to young to sin doesn’t make them free from the taint of death.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Abel was making the same offering Adam made which was a sin offering. I already gave the verses for you to read. The Holy Innocents being to young to sin doesn’t make them free from the taint of death.

Scripture only says Abel made an offering, it doesn't say a sin offering.

and I am aware they were not free from death, I am the one who brought them up. that has not been the issue.
 
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prodromos

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Sorry to backtrack, but do we know when the West began using azymes? I was actually looking just now for an Armenian source I once read that contained pre-Chalcedon quotes confirming the Armenian use of unleavened bread as being from before the schism, and while I couldn't find it, I did find this book that seems to suggest (at least from its blurb) that the Eastern Orthodox critique of the Latin West for using azymes grew out of the earlier Byzantine critique of the Armenians as heretics, but I can't tell from how it is phrased there whether it is suggesting that before that time (c. 11th century) the Latins weren't known to have used azymes. So I'm wondering if this is one of those things like the sign of the cross where the West used to do it the 'Byzantine' way but then switched at some point, or if the West used azymes long before the Chalcedonians' eventual schism from each other around that time. Can someone clarify for me, please?
Sources indicate Rome used leavened bread up until the 6th to 8th centuries.
 
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Barney2.0

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Scripture only says Abel made an offering, it doesn't say a sin offering.

and I am aware they were not free from death, I am the one who brought them up. that has not been the issue.
There’s only one kind of offering pretty much at that point. If they are not free from death then they’re not sinless.
 
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ArmyMatt

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There’s only one kind of offering pretty much at that point. If they are not free from death then they’re not sinless.

incorrect, you are assuming that into the text. it doesn't actually say that.
 
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dzheremi

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Welp, it looks like it might be time to bring up HH Pope Theodosius of Alexandria again (thank you! I love doing this at any and every opportunity), and his famous homily on the Dormition of the Theotokos. You guys might remember from last time (or just...y'know...knowing your faith and history) that HH was the last Pope of Alexandria to be recognized by both OO and EO in Egypt, despite being significantly post-Chalcedon (though that recognition only lasted a little while before he was replaced by a different leader for the Chalcedonians). So hopefully it is okay that I post this here, seeing as it reflects a bit of what was preached in Egypt at the time, in the very last months before the schism was most sadly finalized (it is noteworthy in this context, I think, that the website I took it from is apparently an EO website). Besides, I think last time I referenced him I only summarized what HH had said. Here's an actual quote from the sermon, as presented at the above link:

Now Mary the holy Virgin was dwelling in a separate place in Jerusalem, having many virgins in subjection to her, teaching them the purity and the fear of the Lord. We also, the apostles Peter and John, were continuing with her, fulfilling her command and her evangelic laws, whilst she was pilot to us all, like a wise captain. And it came to pass on a day, even the twentieth of Tobi, that we went in unto her again according to custom, being blessed by her. We saw her amazed; and we said to her, What aileth thee to-day, O thou mother of Life, seeing that thy face is thus sad? She answered and said to us, It happened tome this night that when I had ceased making my little office, I slumbered for a little while; and I saw a beautiful youth about thirty years of age, ten thousand times brighter than the sun. I saw you also standing at his right hand, with garments in your hands, stretching them out to me. The young man answered and said to me, O thou woman, doest thou know Me who I am? When I perceived that it was my Son, I said to Him, My Lord, art Thou Jesus my Son and the Son of God in truth? He said to me, I am. I answered and said to Him, My Lord, what is the appointment of these garments, which are in the hands of Thy disciples, stretching them out to me? He said to me, This is the appointment of thy shroud, when thou goest from the body. When He had said these things to me, He hid Himself from me.

Therefore I fear, O my sons, because of those paths, for they are very narrow. I heard Him many times teaching the sons of men, telling them to repent, saying, There is a river of fire set in the path, tossing its waves exceedingly, and its waves are higher than any mountain. All flesh must needs cross over it, whether righteous or sinners. Can I, my sons, be delivered from this?

+++

In other words, the common tradition of the EO and OO -- and I suspect ultimately the Latins, if other early sources also found at the above website like the homilies of Melito of Sardis (d. 180 AD) are taken as evidence of the original Latin stance -- is that the Theotokos most certainly died, while not being guilty of personal sinfulness as the rest of us are. I have heard of certain EO who apparently claimed that she may have committed some minor sin of pride or something, but I think that was just their own speculation, and anyway does not detract from the main point that St. Mary did die because she is a flesh-and-blood person, and as she said herself in the above dialogue as preserved in HH Pope Theodosius concerning death, "all flesh must cross over it, whether righteous or sinners." As implied by her question. and confirmed by the fact of her dormition, she was not exempt from this.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Welp, it looks like it might be time to bring up HH Pope Theodosius of Alexandria again (thank you! I love doing this at any and every opportunity), and his famous homily on the Dormition of the Theotokos. You guys might remember from last time (or just...y'know...knowing your faith and history) that HH was the last Pope of Alexandria to be recognized by both OO and EO in Egypt, despite being significantly post-Chalcedon (though that recognition only lasted a little while before he was replaced by a different leader for the Chalcedonians). So hopefully it is okay that I post this here, seeing as it reflects a bit of what was preached in Egypt at the time, in the very last months before the schism was most sadly finalized (it is noteworthy in this context, I think, that the website I took it from is apparently an EO website). Besides, I think last time I referenced him I only summarized what HH had said. Here's an actual quote from the sermon, as presented at the above link:

Now Mary the holy Virgin was dwelling in a separate place in Jerusalem, having many virgins in subjection to her, teaching them the purity and the fear of the Lord. We also, the apostles Peter and John, were continuing with her, fulfilling her command and her evangelic laws, whilst she was pilot to us all, like a wise captain. And it came to pass on a day, even the twentieth of Tobi, that we went in unto her again according to custom, being blessed by her. We saw her amazed; and we said to her, What aileth thee to-day, O thou mother of Life, seeing that thy face is thus sad? She answered and said to us, It happened tome this night that when I had ceased making my little office, I slumbered for a little while; and I saw a beautiful youth about thirty years of age, ten thousand times brighter than the sun. I saw you also standing at his right hand, with garments in your hands, stretching them out to me. The young man answered and said to me, O thou woman, doest thou know Me who I am? When I perceived that it was my Son, I said to Him, My Lord, art Thou Jesus my Son and the Son of God in truth? He said to me, I am. I answered and said to Him, My Lord, what is the appointment of these garments, which are in the hands of Thy disciples, stretching them out to me? He said to me, This is the appointment of thy shroud, when thou goest from the body. When He had said these things to me, He hid Himself from me.

Therefore I fear, O my sons, because of those paths, for they are very narrow. I heard Him many times teaching the sons of men, telling them to repent, saying, There is a river of fire set in the path, tossing its waves exceedingly, and its waves are higher than any mountain. All flesh must needs cross over it, whether righteous or sinners. Can I, my sons, be delivered from this?

+++

In other words, the common tradition of the EO and OO -- and I suspect ultimately the Latins, if other early sources also found at the above website like the homilies of Melito of Sardis (d. 180 AD) are taken as evidence of the original Latin stance -- is that the Theotokos most certainly died, while not being guilty of personal sinfulness as the rest of us are. (I have heard of certain EO who apparently claimed that she may have committed some minor sin of pride or something, but I think that was just their own speculation, and anyway does not detract from the main point that St. Mary did die because she is a flesh-and-blood person, and as she said herself in the above dialogue as preserved in HH Pope Theodosius concerning death, "all flesh must cross over it, whether righteous or sinners." As implied by her question. and confirmed by the fact of her dormition, she was not exempt from this.

precisely, she was holy from her conception, but that was still according to the fallen mode of reproduction, and she lived with the consequences of being born fallen.
 
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ArmyMatt

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this is also why we must say that Christ, being born according to the unfallen mode of reproduction, and uniting human nature to divine nature (a natural union, not a growth by grace), was subject to death and the blameless passions because He willed it to be so.
 
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ah yes, until folks started adding superstition to the Eucharist.
That's interesting - in that I've never heard superstition referred to. Can you say exactly what part was superstitious? I can guess, but I might be wrong. Thank you!
 
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ArmyMatt

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That's interesting - in that I've never heard superstition referred to. Can you say exactly what part was superstitious? I can guess, but I might be wrong. Thank you!

people would make the Eucharist into talismans, do experiments on it, etc.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Oh - well I did not know that. Thank you!

yep, that is why today only the clergy and the Emperor/Alaskan Native chiefs receive at the altar by the hand.
 
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