Origins, Theodicy, and Job

[shernren]

Ordinarily someoneone might see all the suffering in the world and think 'Hey suffering exists because man messed up!' But if someone believes in evolution they might be tempted to think 'Hey if death, disease and suffering existed for millions of years before man then death and suffering is not our fault!' or even worse some might say that it proves that God created the world with death and suffering in it as part of His intention.

But I've been thinking, and there seem to be hints that God created the world with death and suffering in it as part of His intention ... from Scripture.

Look at Job 38. God displays His glory: He starts with innocuous things. The stars in the sky, the night and the day, the earth, the water courses. It's clear that God is putting His vast and majestic creation on display, asking Job if he knows enough as a human to dispute all these things. Then suddenly, His images get a little macabre:

"Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket? Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
(Job 38:39-41 NIV)

Wait a minute. I can understand God taking glory for the stars. God was wise enough to create the stars; Job can do no such thing. So God is saying here, "I'm wise enough to create lions and prey and have them eat each other. I'm wise enough to kill things to feed the young of the raven."

It goes on and on.

"The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
but they cannot compare with the pinions and feathers of the stork. She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand, unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them. She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain, for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense. Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider. "Do you give the horse his strength
or clothe his neck with a flowing mane? Do you make him leap like a locust,
striking terror with his proud snorting? He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength,
and charges into the fray. He laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
he does not shy away from the sword. The quiver rattles against his side,
along with the flashing spear and lance. In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground;
he cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds. At the blast of the trumpet he snorts, 'Aha!'
He catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry. "Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread his wings toward the south? Does the eagle soar at your command
and build his nest on high? He dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is his stronghold. From there he seeks out his food;
his eyes detect it from afar. His young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there is he."
(Job 39:13-30 NIV)

"I make the ostrich so stupid that she neglects her young. Can you beat that, Job?"
"I make the horse a violent, furious killing machine. Can you beat that, Job?"
"I make the eagle a bloodthirsty terror in the skies. Can you beat that, Job?"

Okay. If we go by theory, it's not God's doing that eagles are bloodthirsty and horses are wild and ostriches are idiots. The earth is supposed to be perfect. God should be bragging about how well eaegles eat grass and lions eat tree bark or something. If God did not make them carnivores, why is God taking credit for something He didn't do? Why is a holy God bragging about the results of sin?

Remember, God isn't doing a National Geographic special ("Divine Death-Dealers!") for kicks. Read Job. All through, Job has asked God why this is happening to him, what God has in for him, how God can do this to him - Job is bringing a case against God in court, and God is speaking as a defendant as much as He is really the judge. By right, Job 38-41 should be about God showcasing and defending His glory.

And from the looks of it, God seems to glory in the fact that nature is red in tooth and claw.

Look at that. We are so squeamish about getting any blood on God's hands and here He is, gladly accepting glory for all those things! Whatever we think of theodicy, it certainly doesn't seem to be a problem for God.

 

[stumpjumper]

Hmm.

Have you ever read a good process theodicy for the PoE?

Here is Ross Stein's online version: http://www.quodlibet.net/stein-theodicy.shtml

 

[laptoppop]

This is one area in which I differ from many, if not most YECs. I believe spiritual death came through the fall. I don't have a problem with death for plants and animals pre-fall, although in some manner creation itself was corrupted, so I don't have any problem with folks that see it as physical death as well. I see sin as seperation from God, and death without redemption as the ultimate expression of that separation.

 

[jereth]

Utopia spoiled by the Fall of man.

This is assumed as fact by the overwhelming majority of conservative Christians.

- the Fall caused animals to eat each other
- the Fall caused disease
- the Fall caused viruses and bacteria to be harmful
- the Fall caused natural disasters (volcano eruptions, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis etc.)
- the Fall caused physical pain and suffering

All this held as absolute unshakeable dogma, yet based on nothing but a bunch of misinterpreted biblical texts taken out of context.

I really don't see anything in the Bible which teaches the world was originally a pain-free utopia that became wrecked by the Fall. I'm not even sure the Bible teaches a literal "Fall" actually happened. These are but a traditions of men...