Origins of the Secret Pre-trib Rapture

[Chris81]

In Daniel 9:24-27 there are 70 weeks decreed for the Jewish people and the city of Jerusalem. After 69 weeks, the Messiah is cut off. The final week has not happened. When the covenant is confirmed by the man of sin for one week, the clock starts ticking again.

Again where does it specifically state in Daniel that there is a 2000 year or more gap? It seems like you are interpreting the last week to fit a particular eschatology belief in a futurist Anti-Christ. If we are to take the 70 weeks, 490 days and interpret them to be 490 literal years we should interpret them as 490 consecutive years unless clear statements of scripture can be identified which states that the last week is to be delayed for 2000 or more years into the future.

 

[trumpeter]

Again where does it specifically state in Daniel that there is a 2000 year or more gap? It seems like you are interpreting the last week to fit a particular eschatology belief in a futurist Anti-Christ. If we are to take the 70 weeks, 490 days and interpret them to be 490 literal years we should interpret them as 490 consecutive years unless clear statements of scripture can be identified which states that the last week is to be delayed for 2000 or more years into the future.

Dan 9:25-26a NIV

Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree (in 444 B.C. when the 70 year Babylonian captivity ended) to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One (Jesus the Messiah), the ruler, comes (to Jerusalem), there will be seven ‘sevens’ (49 years) and sixty-two ‘sevens (434 years).” It will be built with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens’ (after 483 years; 49 years + 434 years) the Anointed One will be cut off (crucified) and will have nothing

Dan 9:26b-27

The people (Muslims) of the ruler (Antichrist) who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end (of this present age) will come like a flood: War will continue until the end (of the Tribulation) and desolations have been decreed. He (Antichrist) will confirm a covenant with many (Muslims) for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven he will put and end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple (the Holy Place adjacent to the Most Holy Place where the Ark of the Covenant rested) he will set up an abomination (image of himself; Rev. 13:14) that causes desolation, unto the end that is decreed is poured out on him.


The crucifixion occurred after the prophetic period of 483 years and before the last 7 years; it cannot be included in 490 year prophecy.

Jerusalem’s destruction by the Roman general Titus in 70 A.D. occurred after the 483 years and before the last 7 years. Titus was a general in the Roman army when he came to Jerusalem and destroyed the city and sanctuary, he was not a “ruler” until appointed emperor of Rome from 89-91 A.D. Titus was not a ruler when he sacked Jerusalem; the Antichrist will be a ruler when he invades Israel and destroys Jerusalem and the third temple.

The ruler who confirms the 7 year covenant has to be the same ruler who comes and destroys the city and sanctuary. The antecedent of the ruler confirming the covenant is the same ruler who destroys the city and the sanctuary. If Jesus was the ruler confirming the covenant he would have had to destroy his own city and sanctuary in 70 A.D. Hello?

 

[Fred Kamps]

"Those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture have fallen for Satan's greatest deception ever.
Those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture won't be looking for the antichrist because they don't expect to be here when he arrives."

Most of us who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, understand that "we" cannot know for certian that we are worthy to be taken up. Therefore I would suggest that we "all" pay attention with what is happening in this world and constantly be vigilant.

 

[Fred Kamps]

Charles, as a Pre-Tribber, I would have to answer that with, only a couple more season's to go! Almost home! If we are wrong, we see it through to the end. If we are right, we sit back and watch the show. Just wanted to put in my .0000000001 cent worth. I am no schollar and will not battle back because I am a babe in the middle of lion's, and would not stand a chance. ;-)

 

[Biblewriter]

"Those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture have fallen for Satan's greatest deception ever.
Those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture won't be looking for the antichrist because they don't expect to be here when he arrives."

Most of us who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, understand that "we" cannot know for certian that we are worthy to be taken up. Therefore I would suggest that we "all" pay attention with what is happening in this world and constantly be vigilant.

This is completely incorrect. Most of us who believe in a pre-trib rapture understand that none of us are worthy of anything. But all who have been forgiven by the blood of Christ will be taken, regardless of what we believe.

 

[Fred Kamps]

As I stated, I am a babe. I humbly stand corrected. Thank you. I do have to ask you though, as someone who is trying to learn, if none are worthy, who will be raptured?

 

[Fred Kamps]

James, I would have to ask, as someone trying to learn, if none of us are worthy, who will be raptured? If we are baptized by immursion in water, believing that Jesus has taken our sins, then aren't we forgiven for those sin's? Which one of us does not commit a sin, even the most minute, every day of our lives? With this said, does this mean that those of us who have strived to do what is right, try's to live the word of God, and happens to commit that one sin, seconds before the rapture without a chance to ask forgiveness, will left behind? These are real questions and not to be taken as an argument or rebukement. I legitamately am trying to learn and understand. You seem to have done your homework and I believe you would be one to ask.

 

[John S]

Mr. Morris - You may be an exception but I would guess that the vast majority of those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture DO expect to be taken away from the tribulation.
As I have repeatedly said, the Pre-Trib Rapture is Satan's greatest deception and to teach it is a horribly wrong thing to do.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Mr. Morris - You may be an exception but I would guess that the vast majority of those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture DO expect to be taken away from the tribulation.
As I have repeatedly said, the Pre-Trib Rapture is Satan's greatest deception and to teach it is a horribly wrong thing to do.

John,

The greatest deception will be when the pre trib rapture happens it will be claimed that those raptured were abducted by aliens. The lie is already in place and when the time of the pre trib rapture occurs most will believe this lie.

 

[Biblewriter]

extra post deleted by Biblewriter

 

[Biblewriter]

James, I would have to ask, as someone trying to learn, if none of us are worthy, who will be raptured? If we are baptized by immursion in water, believing that Jesus has taken our sins, then aren't we forgiven for those sin's? Which one of us does not commit a sin, even the most minute, every day of our lives? With this said, does this mean that those of us who have strived to do what is right, try's to live the word of God, and happens to commit that one sin, seconds before the rapture without a chance to ask forgiveness, will left behind? These are real questions and not to be taken as an argument or rebukement. I legitamately am trying to learn and understand. You seem to have done your homework and I believe you would be one to ask.

I thank you first of all for your spirit, and apologize for my previous somewhat harsh answer .

The scriptures tell us that "There is none righteous, no not one." (Romans 3:10) and "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

We are all guilty before a holy God. If we compare ourselves with each other, we may look pretty good. But God tells us that those who do so, "measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise" (2 Corinthians 10:12)

The comparison we need to make is to compare ourselves to God, and none of us measure up. So not even one of us is worthy.

But we are offered a pardon, as Jesus himself described in John 3:14-18.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

When the jailer in Phillipi asked Paul and Silas, "what must I do to be saved?" They answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:31)

So we are offered a pardon if we choose to believe in Jesus. But this belief is not simply an intellectual agreement that a certain list of facts is correct. It is a living, vibrant faith in Him. This pardon is not conditioned in whole or in part on anything we do, for "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:4) We are saved by grace and by grace alone. Paul comments on this in the epistle to the Romans, saying, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6) Again, he said, "we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16)

Most Christians realize that every individual that has this faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will be taken up when the rapture occurs. Only a few believe in what is sometimes called a "partial rapture." That is, a rapture of only a few "extra special" Christians.

The debate in this and many similar threads is not about whether or not there will be a rapture, nor about who will be taken up when it occurs. It is rather about when that rapture will occur.

Some are absolutely certain the scriptures say it will be after the tribulation, others are equally certain they say it will be before it. Still others believe it will occur half way through that period, while a few others say it will be a short time before it ends. These groups are called post tribbers, pre-tribbers, mid tribbers, and pre-wrathers respectively.

All these varying positions are based on interpretation. The Bible very clearly states that the rapture will take place. But it most absolutely does not say when it will happen.

Those that say the Bible says it will be after the tribulation, say so because they assume that it will be at the same time as when Jesus comes to judge the world. Since the scriptures very clearly say this will be after the tribulation, they assume that the rapture will be at that time.

Those who say that it will be before the tribulation believe they see two distinct future comings of Jesus in the scriptures. They point out that the Bible says that the faithful will be kept out of a coming hour of testing. They see that hour of testing as the tribulation. This and a number of other scriptures convince them that that the rapture will be before the tribulation.

There are very few on Christian forums who believe in a mid trib or a pre-wrath rapture. You will have to get their reasons from them, as I have not studied their reasoning in detail.

You have probably noticed that I am a pre-tribber, and debate this energetically. But I try to do it respectfully. For this is not an issue critical to the Christian faith, and anyone's opinion on this matter has nothing to do with his or her godliness. Unfortunately, some on both sides of this debate are not well behaved in the way they pursue it. This is sinful, and makes me sad.

 

[Biblewriter]

Mr. Morris - You may be an exception but I would guess that the vast majority of those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture DO expect to be taken away from the tribulation.
As I have repeatedly said, the Pre-Trib Rapture is Satan's greatest deception and to teach it is a horribly wrong thing to do.

I don't know how you got the idea that I meant that most pre-tribbers do not expect to be taken up. I do not know even one who does not expect all Christians to be taken up at that time. Everyone who does not believe this believes in a partial rapture, a concept whose logic totally escapes me.

 

[earagun]

Let's study the origins of the pre-trib rapture.

Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish girl, and member of Edward Irving's congregation, had visions in early 1830 that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. She informed Irving of her visions by letter. Irving then attended the prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland in 1830 at Powerscourt Castle, where he promoted both Futurism and a Secret Rapture.

John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a Church of Ireland clergyman, later with the Plymouth Brethren, attended a series of meetings on Bible Prophecy that began in 1830 at Powerscourt, Ireland, and at these conferences Darby apparently learned about the secret rapture as revealed by vision to Margaret McDonald, and promoted by Edward Irving, and he soon visited Margaret MacDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Darby later visited America several times between 1859 and 1874, where his Futurist theology was readily accepted.

So the doctrine of a secret pre-trib came from the vision of a 15 year old Scottish Girl. John Darby then incorporated this belief of the secret rapture into his futurist theology and there in lies the origins of dispensational theology!

I see you've done your history, Its sad but its almost a mandatory teaching coming out of every Christian theological seminary and every new pastor has been trained up in this false teaching, It sounds really cool! but when you read the bible its not what any of the disciples or Jesus taught........in fact they warned that this kind of false teaching would be taught

 

[Biblewriter]

I see you've done your history, Its sad but its almost a mandatory teaching coming out of every Christian theological seminary and every new pastor has been trained up in this false teaching, It sounds really cool! but when you read the bible its not what any of the disciples or Jesus taught........in fact they warned that this kind of false teaching would be taught

If you read the rest of this thread, you will know that this "history," though widely reported, is incorrect.

 

[zeke37]

As I stated, I am a babe. I humbly stand corrected. Thank you. I do have to ask you though, as someone who is trying to learn, if none are worthy, who will be raptured?

only the faithfull.

most Christians in the end times will become seduced by the dark side, when they actually think that Satan, the supernatural fallen angel, is Jesus returned. It is a test for all of us, including the Christians....to see who is faithfull (like a virgin bride) or who is seduced into becoming a harlot (for Satan's false Christ role)

I used to believe in pre trib, for a short time....
there is no pre trib rapture.

the gathering to Christ (rapture), according to Paul in 2Thes2,
happens after the son of perdition does his thing,
and an apostasy of the faith happens.

the rapture, according to Paul, happens after the righteous dead are raised. 1Thes4:13-16.

and according to John's Gospel of Jesus' words, the righteous dead are rasied on the last day.


so, to recap,
the rapture / gathering to Christ, happens after God brings with Him the righteous dead from heaven,
and raises them up back here on earth again, on the last day.

so, therefore, the pre trib version of the gathering to Christ is false.
there are plently of other post trib proofs....and it is a very important doctrine.

the last person you want to take advice from, is someone that is completely seduced by the pre trib rapture doctrine.
I pray you learn the truth.

 

[John S]

Choose Wisely - I TRULY hope that you were joking around.

Anyone who expects to miss the Tribulation Period because they expect to be taken away, is SADLY mistaken and has been horribly deceived.
If I knew today who the antichrist was and told you, you would NOT believe that it was him because you were still here. THAT is exactly what Satan wants.

 

[Fred Kamps]

Zeke, I pray that Heavenly Father impresses upon me the meaning that he would have me believe, every time I open the Word of God. It is in my heart that I feel I have taken the correct stand as to the timing of the rapture. I sincerely thank you for your well wishes. I wish you well also, regardless of which of us is pulling the correct meaning out. May God bless you.

 

[zeke37]

Thanks Fred.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Back on topic....


Statements by Early Church Fathers & others in regards to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory. Their statements establish the fact that the doctrine was indeed known and taught prior to the 1800s, irregardless of the level of acceptance. These are 7 different instances of remarks in regards to the church being involved in some form of rapture or taking away before the Tribulation. This is absolute proof that Darby did not invent the Pre-Trib view in the 1800s.



Shepard 150 AD
The writer, after escaping a huge terrifying beast with four colors on its head (white, red, black and gold), met a virgin in his vision. "like a bride going froth from a bride-chamber, all in white...I recognized from the former visions that it was the church." The virgin explained that she escaped destruction from the beast (the Great Tribulation) because of God's special deliverance. "Thou hast escaped a great tribulation because thou hast believed and at the sight of such a huge beast hast not doubted. Go therefore and declare to the Elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If ye therefore prepare yourselves and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentance, then shall ye be able to escape it, if your heart is pure and blameless." After explaining to him that "the golden color stands for you who have escaped from this world," the virgin concluded her messages with, "Now ye know the symbol of the great tribulation to come. But if ye are willing, it shall be nothing."


Irenaeus 175-185 AD
"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'"


Victorinus 240 AD
Commentary on the Apocalypse 6:14 - "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution."

Commentary on the Apocalypse 15:1 - "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.' For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst."


Cyprian 250 AD
Epistle 55 - The Antichrist is coming, but above him comes Christ also. The enemy goeth about and rageth, but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our suffering and our wounds. The adversary is enraged and threatens, but there is One who can deliver us from his hands."

It is significant that he did not write about enduring the persecution of the Antichrist. Rather, Cyprian promised that Christ "is One who can deliver us from his hands."

Cyprian says that "we who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible."

Referring to his hope of the approaching Rapture, he encouraged his readers as follows: "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?"

Cyprian concludes his comments on the translation of the saints with these words: "Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise and the kingdom".


Ephraim the Syrian 373 AD
Because all saints and the elect of the LORD are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and be taken to the LORD.


Pseudo-Ephraem 374- 627 AD
Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?...For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.


Brother Dolcino 1304 AD
The History of Brother Dolcino was composed in 1316 by an anonymous notary of the diocese of Vercelli in northern Italy. This short Latin treatise gives a firsthand account of the deeds and beliefs of a religious order called the Apostolic Brethren. Under the leadership of Brother Dolcino, the Apostolic Brethrne flourished in the author' s diocese between the years 1300 and 1307. The text was recopied in 1551, and in the 1600' s was used as source material for two other ecclesiastical histories of the area. The treatise was later printed in the 1740' s in the 25-volume Rerum Italicarum Scriptores. And it was most recently edited in 1907 with the reprint of this multi-volume set, where it contains fourteen pages of Volume Nine.

"Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his perserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ."

For this fourteenth-century text, The History of Brother Dolcino, shows us that some Christians in the middle ages held a view of the rapture that had basic elements of what we call today a pretribulation rapture. These include a significant gap of time between the rapture of the saints and their subsequent descent to earth, and the purpose of the rapture related to escaping end-time tribulation.


Morgan Edwards 1744 AD
The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.

I say, somewhat more- , because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (I Pet. iv. 17)

What has Edwards said? Edwards clearly separates the rapture from the second coming by three and a half years. He uses modern pretrib rapture verses (1 Thess. 4:17 and John 14:2) to describe the rapture. He, like modern pretribulationists, links the time in heaven, during the tribulation, with the "bema" judgment of believers.

The only difference, at least as far as the above statements go, between current pretribulationism and Edwards is the time interval of three and a half years instead of seven. This does not mean that he is a midtribulationist, since it appears that he thought the totality of the tribulation was three and a half, not seven years.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Shouldn't even be a question about it. It is a proveable fact that Darby did not invent the pretrib rapture.