Origins of the Secret Pre-trib Rapture

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Forgiven
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But how does that = with the timing of the rapture? :confused:



There are two raptures. The first rapture will be pre trib and it will be like the Days of Noah. Noah enters the ark and the doors are shut 7 days before the flood. The second rapture will be a pre wrath rapture and it will be like the Days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom the destruction came.

There are two harvest. Learn the parable of the fig tree.
 
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Biblewriter

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wow.
in the very statement itself, this is written...
'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'"
now, that seems pretty post trib to me.

remember that harpazo, wrongly translated as "caught up" means seized in our english.
i do not see a pre trib connection with his statement.

i quoted that very part of Irenaeus' writings in another thread... it seems James once again failed to see that part of the writing in Irenaeus

That only seems post trib to you because you have a near zero concept of pre-trib theology. It is, in fact, in perfect keeping with pre-trib theology.

Pre-trib teaches that there will be a righteous remnant of Israel that will be tempted to worship the Antichrist. Those who pass this test and survive the tribulation will be among those brought to a true faith in Christ at the end of the tribulation.

By the way, we teach this because it is explicitly taught in the scriptures, as I have traced at the following links:

Who will be in the land during Daniel’s seventieth week? http://www.christianforums.com/t6429517-19/

The End Time King of Judah http://www.christianforums.com/t7585242-5/

What happens when Messiah comes http://www.christianforums.com/t7324109-5/
 
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Biblewriter

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I am not convinced that this is an account of a pre-trib rapture. It certainly states that the saints shall be gathered and taken to the Lord but beyond that it lacks essential details to conclusively determine if said quote truly describes an account of a pre-trib rapture. It speaks nothing of the resurrection of the dead nor specify to where the saints are gathered. One could assume that given that they are to be taken to the Lord, one could conclude heaven. However, not conclusively because if you read the quoted section carefully it never claims to say that the saints will be saved from tribulation but merely from the confusion of the world. One could easily translate the quote to mean that Christ shall gather his saints to prepare them in the manner of righteousness and sound christian judgement such that they will not be deceived nor fall into confussion during the time of the great tribulation.

This article does not even suggest that the saints would be "saved" from the coming confusion. It says they will be gathered and taken to the lord, lest they "see" the confusion.

It should also be noted that there is a bit of controversy over the translation of this manuscript from the late latin text which may support a pre-trib rapture, while the translation of the earlier Syriac text does not support a pre-trib rapture. Is the translation of the manuscript authentic, I don't know but we should have numerous writings from the time of the early church to make a claim that pre-trib rapture was provenly a doctrine espoused by the early church. That is not the case, if we look at historic pre-millenailism taught by the early church, it is evident by reading their writings within their full context that they believed in a post tribulation rapture.
In this light it would be helpful to consider some of the comments of Eusebius, made in his famous fourth century history of the church. Speaking of Papias, who is the earliest known non- Biblical Christian commentator of prophecy, he said,

"11. The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. 12. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth. I suppose he got these ideas through a misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figures.
13. For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses. But it was due to him that so many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man; as for instance Irenæus and any one else that may have proclaimed similar views."

When Eusebius wrote this in the waning years of the third century, the church as a whole had rejected Chiliasm, of a belief in a literal millennium. So Eusebius felt that he had "been of very little understanding."

But his last sentace on this subject is very telling. "But it was due to him that so many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man; as for instance Irenæus and any one else that may have proclaimed similar views."

Eusebius explicitly complained that "many" erly church writers had followed the (as he considered) bad lead of Papias. But where are the writings of these "many" early teachers? They were not preserved. In medieval times it became unacceptable to preserve writings that did not agree with accepted standards of the day. So the writings of the followers of Papias were, for the most part, purged from church libraries, or at the very least, not copied out by medieval copyists.

This distorts the written history of the church, making it seem that the doctrine commonly accepted in medieval times had always been the standard doctrine of the church. But this stand-alone comment by the church's earliest historian proves that there were "many" such teachers.

Then why were the writings of Irenaeus preserved? Because his famous work brought about a final end to the advance of Gnosticism in the early church, and because some of his comments at least seemed to endorse the concept of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, and thus to endorse the papacy.

Inn this respect it is important to realize that this comment by Eusebius establishes Irenaeus as the sole surviving example of a whole genera of early Christian writing.

But in the quotation I have already made, we see that Irenaeus explicitly taught that the church would be "suddenly caught up" before the great tribulation. But in the articleI linked to before, I pointed out that Irenaeus also had the church suffering under the Antichrist. From this I have concluded that his position was what would today be called a mid-trib rapture, not a pre-trib rapture. But this is indeed the earliest surviving comment on the subject.

As the subject of this thread is the history of a particular doctrine, I have not responded to the off-subject comments about whether or not that doctrine is correct.
 
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Manasseh_

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Just because they taught it then, doesn't mean it is true!!!

We only have the bible to go on... And again, why do the pretribbers want to skip over Matthew 24:29-31?


......actually they don't skip over this prophecy, they try to explain it away by proposing that Christ is giving this prophecy to the Jews of that generation and not to Christians........what they do ignore "try to skip over" is ..........
A. Christ was speaking exclusively to Christians ( his apostles)
B. He was speaking to them privately on the mount
C. Not only speaking in private but it was only four of his apostles (Mark13) in private, not all 12
D. In the previous chapter Matt 23 He had already told the jews he would no longer address them trying to bring them to the truth until another prophecy would be fulfilled at the end ......
Now when faced with these facts and questioned about them, then pretribbers will generally and deliberately "skip over" ignore this truth.......

It's already understood why pretribbers skip over, ignore altogether or attempt to place a different explaination when given emphatic statements of truth from scripture............it simply disagrees with their false doctrine of pretrib rapture........the only choice is the afore mentioned actions they do take or admit their doctrine is false ........but then they would have to admit they've been deceived...........we already have seen for years what the majority of them have chosen to do despite any evidence given to the contrary as in the example that you had given (Matt 24:29-31)




 
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Super Kal

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Justin Martyr,
100 - 168AD
First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110

"Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians

Justin Martyr never believed OR taught in a pre-trib rapture... and Justin Martyr taught 20-50 years before Irenaeus.
 
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Biblewriter

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Justin Martyr,
100 - 168AD
First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110

"Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians

Justin Martyr never believed OR taught in a pre-trib rapture... and Justin Martyr taught 20-50 years before Irenaeus.

The truth is that Justin Martyr never said anything whatsoever about when Jesus would take the believers out of this world, nor did he say very much about end time prophecy at all.

But he did very explicitly say that even in his early day, Christians were not agreed about the correct way to interpret end time prophecies. He wrote:

“Then I answered... ‘I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.’” (Dialogue with Tyrpho, by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXX.)
 
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Manasseh_

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There are two raptures. The first rapture will be pre trib and it will be like the Days of Noah. Noah enters the ark and the doors are shut 7 days before the flood. The second rapture will be a pre wrath rapture and it will be like the Days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom the destruction came.

There are two harvest. Learn the parable of the fig tree.


........pure fantasy with no prophetic scriptural support whatsoever
 
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........pure fantasy with no prophetic scriptural support whatsoever


Oh, I could lay out plenty of scriptural support, but I think it would be far beyond your abilities.

When you think not.......the Son of Man cometh.
 
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Chris81

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Oh, I could lay out plenty of scriptural support, but I think it would be far beyond your abilities.

When you think not.......the Son of Man cometh.

Why not humor us, poor little people, with your great wisdom?
 
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Chris81

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Look at the way you worded your question, and then be wise enough to know the answer to your own question.

Ouch, I have been wounded by the intellectual giant! If only I could live in the shadow of his greatness.
 
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I, along with almost all pre-tribbers, reject the concept of two raptures. I never even heard of the notion until quite recently, here on Christan forums.

Well James, you're right. Most people reject that there will be two raptures. I certainly believe I can prove it.....or I wouldn't believe it.

You are a respected and knowledgeable poster. If you think you can disprove what I am saying.....using the Bible, I welcome you to do so. If you are up to it, let me know.
 
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Biblewriter

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So, let me ask the Pre-tribbers... if the time comes and the rapture really isn't pre-trib, and we know for sure the Antichrist has arisen to power, what will you think?

I would think, "I was wrong." But I would not even begin to question whether or not the Bible is reliable.
 
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Biblewriter

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Mr. Morris - That's why Satan's deception is so powerful. It has already taken hold.
Like all of the other Pre-Tribbers, you are going to believe that since the Rapture hasn't happened, then there is NO way that that man is the antichrist.

Not at all. Since I know the Bible well, I would recognize the Antichrist if he appeared. I know the events that will lead up to his appearance, and what he will do. So if these things happened, I would know that I had been mistaken about the timing of the rapture.

But when these things happened, I would also know the exact day of the rapture. That is one of the reasons I am certain that it will be pre-trib, for Jesus very clearly said no man knows the day or the hour. There are a number of such details in Bible prophecy. Specific things that will happen when He comes to judge the world that are mutually exclusive with specific things that will happen when He comes for his own. That is details contained in one comment about his coming that explicitly contradict details in other comments about his coming. The only way the details of both comments could be completely true and accurate is for him to be coming more than one more time.

And no scripture says He will only come one more time. This is exactly what was done in the Old Testament. No Old Testament scripture said He would come more than once. But the Old Testament prophecies contained mutually exclusive details. Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to these apparent contradictions was that He was coming more than once. And that shows us the resolution to the apparent contradictions in comments about his future coming. He is coming back more than once.
 
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