Origins of Angelic sin; Human Sin & its Transmission.

fhansen

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Angels are spiritual beings sinless, finite and immortal. They were originally created by God in order to promote His glory and to serve him. Angels are sexless, incapable of prorogation, and therefore the number of angels is fixed. Angels are intelligent beings and possess the attributes of knowledge and freedom of the will. Like man, angels originally had the ability not to sin and also the ability to sin. All created angels originally existed in a state of grace.

The fall of the evil angels seems to be pride. (Is. 14:12-15) Just why Satan and the angels sinned is unknown as sin is an irrational entity. The cause of this sin of rebellion lay entirely in angelic mature-free will…..with no excuse for temptation or any defect in their angelic nature.

The moment each angel willing sinned, they were judged by God. II Peter 2: 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; hell was specifically created for Satan and his angels (Mt. 25:41).

The state of the evil angels is misery. They know they are judged and waiting for eternal judgement. “Have You come to destroy us? (Mark 1:24). Evil angels cannot be forgiven as Jesus’ substitutionary atonement for sins is incarnational. Jesus is our substitute, “being made in the likeness of men” (Phil 2) and not of angels.

On the other hand, the good angels were also judged to into a state of glory, when the evil angels were judged unto condemnation.. Luke 20:35 suggests the angels are likened to resurrected believers. Good angels and resurrected believers no longer have the ability to sin and therefore cannot sin.

———————

God created man, producing his body from the earth, but his soul from nothing and joined it to the body. Man’s spirit, breathed into him by God, is closely related to the soul. The spirit is that faculty of the soul through which the person relates to God (Ps 51:10; Rom 8:16; Eph 4:23) as God is only spirit. The function of our spirit, the deepest part of our being, is related to the spiritual realm: it enables us to contact and receive God Himself. The spirit is the part of us that most directly worships and prays to God (see John 4:24 and Philippians 3:3).

An unbeliever does have a spirit. However most of the capacities of the unregenerate spirit are dead and inoperative; at the new birth, God implants new capacities in the spirit. Romans 8:10: “If Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness”.

Man is created in the image of God meaning the proper disposition Adam’s will was to do only God’s will and his intellect had a greater natural knowledge of God than his fallen children. The image of God in Adam is known as natural perfection in which he could perfectly know, love and glorify God as creator. The image of God not only comprehends all moral but spiritual virtues….that all of Adam’s mind, will, heart, are in complete communion with God. This image is nothing else than God’s righteousness embodied in man.

The natural sense of the Genesis account is that God had made man and every other creature as propagative beings. Like begets like, as is the way of all living creatures. God created supernaturally at the beginning (six days of creation), but He designed into His creatures the ability to propagate and “fill the earth” without any further supernatural acts of creation (post seventh day).

This righteous condition which God created Adam, with all its excellence, Adam would also have propagated to his posterity had he not fallen. In other words, had Adam not fallen, Adam’s children would have inherited this righteousness.

THE FALL

In Genesis, death and sin are absolutely linked together. “for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.” Adam was created with unique characteristics. Adam had the ability not to die, but also the ability to die. Adam had the ability not to sin and the ability to sin. When Adam sinned, God withdrew Adam’s ability not to sin and his ability not to die. Adam lost his original righteousness. Adam is now left with sin and death. This is the curse. Mankind is not guilty of Adam’s sin…but the divine punishment of God is all his descendants through propagation, inherit the condition God left him in.

Adam's original righteousness ceased to exist and in its place was introduced a state of moral depravity and this new state of moral depravity is now their natural state or condition and it is passed by the common course of nature to all Adam’s descendants.

The fact that any human dies regardless of age is indicative of Adam’s death passed on to all humanity. The fact that any human sins regardless of age is evidence of Adam’s sin passed on to all humanity. All humanity inherits Adam’s death and his guilt. All humanity needs the forgiveness of sins regardless of age.

What about infant sin?

So how is it possible that an infant can be sinful and guilty without having committing actual sins personally?

The soul of the newborn infant is derived from its parents, in the same way Eve’s soul was derived from Adam. Scripture informs us God breathed life into man only once and we are never told that it was repeated. Therefore, God breathed the breath of life (soul) into Adam not Eve. Eve acquires her soul from Adam. We see a similar instance in the Incarnation. Jesus derives his sinless nature from the Holy Spirit and not from Mary.

In conformity to Scripture, the place where the seat of sin resides is the soul. This is the immaterial part of man. In the Fall, Adam’s sin now resides in his soul. Adam’s sin is passed on from parent to child through propagation. That propagation includes the sinful soul. How this occurs is unknown and how the soul contracts sin is unknown.

With the soul contaminated, we inherit Adam’s sin. When the sinful soul is passed on from parent to child through propagation, this explains how a infant could be sinful and guilty without having committed sins personally.

This then also relieves God from the charge of being the author of sin or responsible for its continuance. Adam and Adam’s descendants are solely responsible for the continuance of sin. Sin is therefore not an external substance or learned behavior of the environment, but the very part of the essence of what it means to be a person.

Everything follows from seeds of it own nature. No black crow ever produces a white dove, nor a ferocious lion a gentle lamb, and no man polluted with inborn sin ever begets a holy child.
And yet Adam didn't gain something at the Fall, as in a "sin nature", rather he lost something: communion with God. His decscendants would lack all "knowledge of God", alienated from Him as they are. This alienation or separation is the state of injustice that we inherit; its's the essence of man's death, the "death of the soul" as it's been called, and the reason for further sin. Man cannot retain moral integrity once apart from God, the source of all true morality/ righteousness for him. Man cannot play God and live. Man was made for communion with God.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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The sovereign Holy Spirit can convert anywhere.
If "conversion" is necessary, he can do so anywhere

Salvation without faith alone. Salvation without Christ alone. Salvation without Scripture alone. Thank you John Calvin.

And if one believes in predestination of the elect, then death in infancy alters the destiny of neither the elect nor the non-elect.

Salvation by election alone. Thank you John Calvin.
 
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Clare73

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Salvation without faith alone. Salvation without Christ alone. Salvation without Scripture alone. Thank you John Calvin.
And you think the NT commands were spoken to infants?
Salvation by election alone. Thank you John Calvin.
Thank you, Paul (Romans 8:29-30).

Keeping in mind that divine foreknowledge as presented in Scripture (e.g., Romans 8:29-20)
does not refer to God knowing in advance what man is going to do,
it refers to his knowing in advance what he is going to do,
because he has decreed from before the foundations of the world that he shall do it.
And we know this from the following:

Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord (God's foreknowledge) for ages is his work."

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (God's foreknowledge) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (I decreed) them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass."

Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge."

Acts 4:28 - "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

See Isaiah 37:26, Isaiah 45:21; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2;
2 Peter 3:17.

In the Bible, "God's foreknowledge"--knowing in advance what is going to happen, is
not because he looks down the corridors of time to learn what man is going to do,
rather "God's foreknowledge" is about God knowing in advance what he is going to do
because he has decreed that he shall do it and, therefore, it shall happen.

For man's objection to this, see Isaiah 55:8-9.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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And you think the NT commands were spoken to infants?

Sure they were! Jesus said to baptize all nations. Infants are apart of all nations. I have never heard of a nation that didn't have infants. All human souls are intended for baptism. Abortion is by definition is an absolute rejection of baptism.
 
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Clare73

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Sure they were! Jesus said to baptize all nations. Infants are apart of all nations. I have never heard of a nation that didn't have infants. All human souls are intended for baptism. Abortion is by definition is an absolute rejection of baptism.
Did he?. . .or did he say to make disciples (believers) of them, baptizing them. . .(Matthew 28:19).

Infants aren't disciples. . .yet.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Did he?. . .or did he say to make disciples (believers) of them, baptizing them. . .(Matthew 28:19).

Infants aren't disciples. . .yet.

Abortion is also a rejection of making disciples. "Fear the one who can kill the body and soul in hell."
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Did he?. . .or did he say to make disciples (believers) of them, baptizing them. . .(Matthew 28:19).

Infants aren't disciples. . .yet.

In the Great Commission, making disciples in Greek is in the imperative. Baptizing and Teaching are participles which are subordinate to the imperative. So how do you make disciples? By baptizing and teaching them. Simple enough.

The older mega-theologies such as the Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans and Methodist baptize infants and then teach them. For adults, it is teaching them and then baptizing them.

The newer post Reformation mega-theologies (essentially developed in America) such as the Baptists, SDA, American Evangelicals, Charismatics and Pentecostals are decisionists and practice only adult baptism.
 
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Clare73

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In the Great Commission, making disciples in Greek is in the imperative. Baptizing and Teaching are participles which are subordinate to the imperative. So
how do you make disciples? By baptizing and teaching them. Simple enough.
No infant is taught, nor made a disciple.
The older mega-theologies such as the Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans and Methodist baptize infants and then teach them. For adults, it is teaching them and then baptizing them.

The newer post Reformation mega-theologies (essentially developed in America) such as the Baptists, SDA, American Evangelicals, Charismatics and Pentecostals are decisionists and practice only adult baptism.
 
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bbbbbbb

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No infant is taught, nor made a disciple.

The expected response will be the examples of John the Baptist and Isaiah, who were believers before birth. Those examples, however, merely prove the truth of God's election of His people from eternity past. No matter what one does to an infant after birth will not alter God's eternal decrees.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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No infant is taught, nor made a disciple.

Decisional theology precludes baptism of children. Everyone knows this. The hardest and most difficult two words for decisionists in the Great Commission are "all nations." Why? Because "all nations" conflicts with all aspects of Decisional Theology.

So what does Jesus include or exclude from the Great Commission?

  • All nations” is the object of baptism.
  • Jesus neither instituted adult nor infant baptism just simply baptism--baptism for all. All Human souls are intended for baptism.
  • There is no specific text in Scripture that bars infants from baptism.
  • Jesus doesn't place a limitation on who is to be baptized.
  • The command, therefore, to baptize all nations, is a command to baptize the youngest child as well as the oldest man.
  • From this text baptism is not optional, just as teaching is not optional.
  • Christians are authorized to baptize all who compose a nation, men, women and children & infants.
  • Jesus gives no age or intellectual developmental requirement for baptism.
  • The Great Commission is divine commission is to "baptize all nations"— and there never was a nation without infants.
  • Jesus told his church to baptize all nations, so the lack of any special instructions for infants argues for infant baptism rather than against it. We are not to exclude what Jesus has included.
  • Jesus never tells us to baptize only reasoning adults, with a nuanced understanding of the Trinity or the Atonement with a credible confession of faith.
  • All nations are to be baptized, regardless of race, color, sex, age, class, or education. Jesus makes no exceptions. Jesus doesn't say, "Baptize all nations except . . .." Everyone is to be baptized, including infants.
  • Baptism is of universal application; it is a cosmopolitan command in which the differences such as of nationality, race, age, sex, social or civil status or unique cultural norms are leveled.
  • When speaking about the nation of America or the American peoples, we don’t exclude children. So, actually, you're the one attempting to form a pool of exclusion where none is.
  • Suppose the proclamation be issued: “Go and take the census of the nation!” Does the agent stop and ask whether he is to count the babies too? How absurd, then, it is to say that when Christ commands His disciples to baptize "all nations", He means only big people!
 
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Clare73

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Decisional theology precludes baptism of children. Everyone knows this. The hardest and most difficult two words for decisionists in the Great Commission are "all nations." Why? Because "all nations" conflicts with all aspects of Decisional Theology.

So what does Jesus include or exclude from the Great Commission?

  • All nations” is the object of baptism.
  • Jesus neither instituted adult nor infant baptism just simply baptism--baptism for all. All Human souls are intended for baptism.
  • There is no specific text in Scripture that bars infants from baptism.
  • Jesus doesn't place a limitation on who is to be baptized.
  • The command, therefore, to baptize all nations, is a command to baptize the youngest child as well as the oldest man.
  • From this text baptism is not optional, just as teaching is not optional.
  • Christians are authorized to baptize all who compose a nation, men, women and children & infants.
  • Jesus gives no age or intellectual developmental requirement for baptism.
  • The Great Commission is divine commission is to "baptize all nations"— and there never was a nation without infants.
  • Jesus told his church to baptize all nations, so the lack of any special instructions for infants argues for infant baptism rather than against it. We are not to exclude what Jesus has included.
  • Jesus never tells us to baptize only reasoning adults, with a nuanced understanding of the Trinity or the Atonement with a credible confession of faith.
  • All nations are to be baptized, regardless of race, color, sex, age, class, or education. Jesus makes no exceptions. Jesus doesn't say, "Baptize all nations except . . .." Everyone is to be baptized, including infants.
  • Baptism is of universal application; it is a cosmopolitan command in which the differences such as of nationality, race, age, sex, social or civil status or unique cultural norms are leveled.
  • When speaking about the nation of America or the American peoples, we don’t exclude children. So, actually, you're the one attempting to form a pool of exclusion where none is.
  • Suppose the proclamation be issued: “Go and take the census of the nation!” Does the agent stop and ask whether he is to count the babies too? How absurd, then, it is to say that when Christ commands His disciples to baptize "all nations", He means only big people!
Did I express objection to, is my issue, baptism of infants, or is it teaching and discipling of infants?
 
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Clare73

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The expected response will be the examples of John the Baptist and Isaiah, who were believers before birth. Those examples, however, merely prove the truth of God's election of His people from eternity past. No matter what one does to an infant after birth will not alter God's eternal decrees.
And all are not made disciples according to the "commission."
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Quite true, despite many well-meaning intentions.

John 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

The parable of the Sower tells us clearly believers will fall away.

Simon Magnus "believed" and was "baptized" by the Apostle Phillip and he fell away.

I am never surprised when individuals leave the Christian faith. It saddens me, and it gives me someone to pray for.

 
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bbbbbbb

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John 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

The parable of the Sower tells us clearly believers will fall away.

Simon Magnus "believed" and was "baptized" by the Apostle Phillip and he fell away.

I am never surprised when individuals leave the Christian faith. It saddens me, and it gives me someone to pray for.

Why pray for them since, according to Hebrews 6:4-8 it is impossible to renew them again to repentance?

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Why pray for them since, according to Hebrews 6:4-8 it is impossible to renew them again to repentance?

Excuse me! How DARE you tell me who I should pray for and who I shouldn't.

We have examples given to us in Scripture by the Holy Spirit who have fallen away. I don't have that certitude nor that kind of knowledge among any Christian today.

I don't know who is truely a christian on CF and who is not. I don't have God's insight. But I can still pray for them.

I have never even heard of a verse of Scripture that says "We shouldn't pray for others in ANY CONDITION OF FAITH OR UNBELIEF."

Christians are called to pray for others. PERIOD.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Excuse me! How DARE you tell me who I should pray for and who I shouldn't.

We have examples given to us in Scripture by the Holy Spirit who have fallen away. I don't have that certitude nor that kind of knowledge among any Christian today.

I don't know who is truely a christian on CF and who is not. I don't have God's insight. But I can still pray for them.

I have never even heard of a verse of Scripture that says "We shouldn't pray for others in ANY CONDITION OF FAITH OR UNBELIEF."

Christians are called to pray for others. PERIOD.

I never told you who you can or cannot pray for. As far as I am concerned you can pray for anyone and everyone you wish to pray for, including myself, if you like. If God answers your prayers according to your expectations, so much the better.

I merely quoted a passage in scripture (Hebrews 6, to be precise) which clearly states that it is impossible to renew apostates to repentance. If you think it is possible that your prayers can effect that change, that certainly doesn't bother me.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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I never told you who you can or cannot pray for. As far as I am concerned you can pray for anyone and everyone you wish to pray for, including myself, if you like. If God answers your prayers according to your expectations, so much the better.

I merely quoted a passage in scripture (Hebrews 6, to be precise) which clearly states that it is impossible to renew apostates to repentance. If you think it is possible that your prayers can effect that change, that certainly doesn't bother me.

Thank you for your permission to allow me to pray as I see fit.
 
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The Righterzpen

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OK, I think I understand the theme / questions posed by this thread?

Humans / the fall / the choice to sin:
My understanding of how the fall applies to Adam's descendants; is that we all inherit the corrupted state that leads to death. This is true of any life form; not just humans. All are subject to death. The inheritance of that corrupted state is not the same thing as committing personal sin. Thus the application of accountability before God of what one knows.

Although it certainly is possible to commit sin and not know it. (Lack of exposure to "the Law". Lack of cognitive capacity to understand. These are two examples.) Thus what accountability would a child who has not the cognitive capacity bear? To me that's a mystery because what accountability does the soul created in God's image "know" (thus would bear) apart from one's capacity to think? I don't know the answer to that.

I worked for many years with non-verbal developmentally disabled adults and what they could comprehend was usually of a much greater capacity than what they could communicate. Sometimes thoughts could be pretty clearly communicated by the expression in their face. Sometimes they were happy, sometimes sad and certainly bore the capacity to get angry. Observably though to; they bore an inherent awareness as to whether or not someone was "being mean".

It was sort of like the communication of "soul" / "personality" one can find in animals. Although obviously there is a dimension to human existence that is "weightier" in the dimension of awareness of God and one's accountability before Him.

I distinctly remember an encounter with a bird that got stuck in my bathroom fan ventilation shaft. Not sure how it got below the fan itself; but there it was; it's little eye ball looking down at me through the grate in the light fixture above the shower. This bird seemed to be communicating: "Please help me." (I can't get out of here myself.) So I closed the door, removed the window screen; removed the window panes themselves; unscrewed the light fixture, gave it a shake and as soon as the the bird felt the cold night air; it flew out the window. (Apparently unharmed.)

That fact that God gives all life "the breath of life" I think is part of what gives us the ability to "communicate" with other life forms we can't actually "talk" to. Thus how I knew this bird was "asking for help".

So though obviously the fallen nature results in sin. I would agree that it would be erroneous to say the action of committing sin exudes from one's mere existence, simply because of the fall. There's the fallen nature; there's the conscience, there's the reactions we wish we hadn't reacted with and then there's the conscious choice to commit evil. All bear their own levels of accountability.

Angels:
The interesting difference I think I've concluded from Scripture about "non-carbon based created entities" called "angels"; is that they run far more on the dichotomy of "obedient" verses "evil" (the fallen ones) than may be more apparent on the surface of human behavior. Even fallen unregenerate humans still bear the capacity to make decisions in favor of moral right. I conclude that is a function of being created in God's image.

This doesn't appear to be the case with fallen angels though. When an angel falls; it becomes "depraved totally" and looses the desire for committing moral right for the sake of goodness; despite still bearing some capacity to "fake it". (Satan disguises himself as an angel of light; though he was a murderer from the commencement of his own fall and there is no good thing in him.)

Angels though are sentient entities who are accountable for their sin. They aren't in the same category as animals. Animals bear varying capacities for sentience, but are not accountable to God post death for their disobedience to God's intended order. For animals to became subject to the effects of the fall, on account of Adam and Eve's choices.

The Fall:
Well, one thing we can conclude is that Lucifer fell before Adam did. And though it's true that Scripture says Lucifer's fall was a result of his pride; it does raise an interesting question about Lucifer's capacity to "become" proud.

I have a theory that the creation of Adam and Eve was the event that sparked jealous pride in Lucifer. Now I don't know if this is true, but it makes the most logical sense. Lucifer was the #1 ranking created entity in the cosmos before Adam was created. This material life form being; who possessed a body that could be subject to the destruction of physical death, but who was created in God's image; would judge Lucifer! Thus is what I think "kicked" Satan in his.... angelic pride, causing his fall.

Post fall, both Adam and Eve "passed the proverbial accountability buck". Although interestingly, when Satan was passed his judgement, it's not recorded that he said anything to God concerning his own plight. Lucifer knew; but from the point of his own fall; it seemed apparent that he just didn't care!

Now what was the state of corruptibility that came to pass between God's holy intentions and fall of any of His created entities is the subject of another theory I have; that I'll save for a later conversation.

In the mean time though; here's my "two cents" on these subjects.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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I worked for many years with non-verbal developmentally disabled adults and what they could comprehend was usually of a much greater capacity than what they could communicate. Sometimes thoughts could be pretty clearly communicated by the expression in their face. Sometimes they were happy, sometimes sad and certainly bore the capacity to get angry. Observably though to; they bore an inherent awareness as to whether or not someone was "being mean".
You raised some very interesting thoughts in your post. Most appreciative.
 
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