Origins of Angelic sin; Human Sin & its Transmission.

Ain't Zwinglian

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Angels are spiritual beings sinless, finite and immortal. They were originally created by God in order to promote His glory and to serve him. Angels are sexless, incapable of prorogation, and therefore the number of angels is fixed. Angels are intelligent beings and possess the attributes of knowledge and freedom of the will. Like man, angels originally had the ability not to sin and also the ability to sin. All created angels originally existed in a state of grace.

The fall of the evil angels seems to be pride. (Is. 14:12-15) Just why Satan and the angels sinned is unknown as sin is an irrational entity. The cause of this sin of rebellion lay entirely in angelic mature-free will…..with no excuse for temptation or any defect in their angelic nature.

The moment each angel willing sinned, they were judged by God. II Peter 2: 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; hell was specifically created for Satan and his angels (Mt. 25:41).

The state of the evil angels is misery. They know they are judged and waiting for eternal judgement. “Have You come to destroy us? (Mark 1:24). Evil angels cannot be forgiven as Jesus’ substitutionary atonement for sins is incarnational. Jesus is our substitute, “being made in the likeness of men” (Phil 2) and not of angels.

On the other hand, the good angels were also judged to into a state of glory, when the evil angels were judged unto condemnation.. Luke 20:35 suggests the angels are likened to resurrected believers. Good angels and resurrected believers no longer have the ability to sin and therefore cannot sin.

———————

God created man, producing his body from the earth, but his soul from nothing and joined it to the body. Man’s spirit, breathed into him by God, is closely related to the soul. The spirit is that faculty of the soul through which the person relates to God (Ps 51:10; Rom 8:16; Eph 4:23) as God is only spirit. The function of our spirit, the deepest part of our being, is related to the spiritual realm: it enables us to contact and receive God Himself. The spirit is the part of us that most directly worships and prays to God (see John 4:24 and Philippians 3:3).

An unbeliever does have a spirit. However most of the capacities of the unregenerate spirit are dead and inoperative; at the new birth, God implants new capacities in the spirit. Romans 8:10: “If Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness”.

Man is created in the image of God meaning the proper disposition Adam’s will was to do only God’s will and his intellect had a greater natural knowledge of God than his fallen children. The image of God in Adam is known as natural perfection in which he could perfectly know, love and glorify God as creator. The image of God not only comprehends all moral but spiritual virtues….that all of Adam’s mind, will, heart, are in complete communion with God. This image is nothing else than God’s righteousness embodied in man.

The natural sense of the Genesis account is that God had made man and every other creature as propagative beings. Like begets like, as is the way of all living creatures. God created supernaturally at the beginning (six days of creation), but He designed into His creatures the ability to propagate and “fill the earth” without any further supernatural acts of creation (post seventh day).

This righteous condition which God created Adam, with all its excellence, Adam would also have propagated to his posterity had he not fallen. In other words, had Adam not fallen, Adam’s children would have inherited this righteousness.

THE FALL

In Genesis, death and sin are absolutely linked together. “for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.” Adam was created with unique characteristics. Adam had the ability not to die, but also the ability to die. Adam had the ability not to sin and the ability to sin. When Adam sinned, God withdrew Adam’s ability not to sin and his ability not to die. Adam lost his original righteousness. Adam is now left with sin and death. This is the curse. Mankind is not guilty of Adam’s sin…but the divine punishment of God is all his descendants through propagation, inherit the condition God left him in.

Adam's original righteousness ceased to exist and in its place was introduced a state of moral depravity and this new state of moral depravity is now their natural state or condition and it is passed by the common course of nature to all Adam’s descendants.

The fact that any human dies regardless of age is indicative of Adam’s death passed on to all humanity. The fact that any human sins regardless of age is evidence of Adam’s sin passed on to all humanity. All humanity inherits Adam’s death and his guilt. All humanity needs the forgiveness of sins regardless of age.

What about infant sin?

So how is it possible that an infant can be sinful and guilty without having committing actual sins personally?

The soul of the newborn infant is derived from its parents, in the same way Eve’s soul was derived from Adam. Scripture informs us God breathed life into man only once and we are never told that it was repeated. Therefore, God breathed the breath of life (soul) into Adam not Eve. Eve acquires her soul from Adam. We see a similar instance in the Incarnation. Jesus derives his sinless nature from the Holy Spirit and not from Mary.

In conformity to Scripture, the place where the seat of sin resides is the soul. This is the immaterial part of man. In the Fall, Adam’s sin now resides in his soul. Adam’s sin is passed on from parent to child through propagation. That propagation includes the sinful soul. How this occurs is unknown and how the soul contracts sin is unknown.

With the soul contaminated, we inherit Adam’s sin. When the sinful soul is passed on from parent to child through propagation, this explains how a infant could be sinful and guilty without having committed sins personally.

This then also relieves God from the charge of being the author of sin or responsible for its continuance. Adam and Adam’s descendants are solely responsible for the continuance of sin. Sin is therefore not an external substance or learned behavior of the environment, but the very part of the essence of what it means to be a person.

Everything follows from seeds of it own nature. No black crow ever produces a white dove, nor a ferocious lion a gentle lamb, and no man polluted with inborn sin ever begets a holy child.
 
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BobRyan

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Angels are spiritual beings sinless, finite and not immortal since as 1 Tim 6 says "God alone possesses immortality" -

1 Tim 6:14 that you keep the commandment without fault or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see

Sinless angels do not die because God wills it but not because they themselves are like God immortal.

Angels are sexless, incapable of prorogation, and therefore the number of angels is fixed.

Apparently that is the case since as Christ said in Matt 22 they form no family units.

Angels are intelligent beings and possess the attributes of knowledge and freedom of the will. Like man, angels originally had the ability not to sin and also the ability to sin. All created angels originally existed in a state of grace....

The fall of the evil angels seems to be pride. (Is. 14:12-15) Just why Satan and the angels sinned is unknown as sin is an irrational entity. The cause of this sin of rebellion lay entirely in angelic mature-free will…..with no excuse for temptation or any defect in their angelic nature. .

agreed - it led them to doubt God

The moment each angel willing sinned, they were judged by God. II Peter 2: 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

The text does not say this expulsion happened "the moment" they sinned.


hell was specifically created for Satan and his angels (Mt. 25:41).

True it is specifically for them... mankind was not supposed to fall and join them in that lake-of-fire ending..

The state of the evil angels is misery. They know they are judged and waiting for eternal judgement. “Have You come to destroy us? (Mark 1:24).

The text tells us they are not destroyed and they are very active on Earth.


Evil angels cannot be forgiven as Jesus’ substitutionary atonement for sins is incarnational. Jesus is our substitute, “being made in the likeness of men” (Phil 2)

Agreed -- He did not provide for their redemption because like those among humans who do it - they committed the unpardonable sin.


and not of angels.

On the other hand, the good angels were also judged to into a state of glory, when the evil angels were judged unto condemnation.. Luke 20:35 suggests the angels are likened to resurrected believers.

Rather resurrected believers are in some ways "like the angels" -- there is no "good angels judged" text that I know of in scripture.

Good angels and resurrected believers no longer have the ability to sin and therefore cannot sin.

All have free will -- all have the ability to sin - but the good angels do not sin.
 
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BobRyan

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God created man, producing his body from the earth, but his soul from nothing and joined it to the body. Man’s spirit, breathed into him by God, is closely related to the soul.

Yes -- Gen 2 "man became a living soul" -- but it is also true as Matt 10:28 points out that man has a soul.

So depends on context.

An unbeliever does have a spirit.

Indeed - body, soul and spirit.

Man is created in the image of God

True - but at the fall of Adam - the nature of man now includes the "sinful nature" which is a "bent" at birth towards rebellion.

Only the supernatural drawing of all mankind - John 12:32 enables fallen man in his depraved state to still have a free will choice for or against the gospel.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Angels are spiritual beings sinless, finite and not immortal since as 1 Tim 6 says "God alone possesses immortality" -

1 Tim 6:14 that you keep the commandment without fault or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see

Sinless angels do not die because God wills it but not because they themselves are like God immortal.



Apparently that is the case since as Christ said in Matt 22 they form no family units.



agreed - it led them to doubt God



The text does not say this expulsion happened "the moment" they sinned.




True it is specifically for them... mankind was not supposed to fall and join them in that lake-of-fire ending..



The text tells us they are not destroyed and they are very active on Earth.




Agreed -- He did not provide for their redemption because like those among humans who do it - they committed the unpardonable sin.


and not of angels.



Rather resurrected believers are in some ways "like the angels" -- there is no "good angels judged" text that I know of in scripture.



All have free will -- all have the ability to sin - but the good angels do not sin.


Geez,

I thought I was back in Jr. High.....going through the BobRyan School of theology fact checker. I wonder if my next post will pass the BobRyan muster test. I must say BobRyan is one of the most humble commenters here on CF. Such brilliant insights.
 
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Clare73

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Geez,

I thought I was back in Jr. High.....going through the BobRyan School of theology fact checker. I wonder if my next post will pass the BobRyan muster test. I must say BobRyan is one of the most humble commenters here on CF. Such brilliant insights.
I was hoping to see you exegete 1 Timothy 6:15 for him.
 
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Clare73

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Angels are spiritual beings sinless, finite and immortal. They were originally created by God in order to promote His glory and to serve him. Angels are sexless, incapable of prorogation, and therefore the number of angels is fixed. Angels are intelligent beings and possess the attributes of knowledge and freedom of the will. Like man, angels originally had the ability not to sin and also the ability to sin. All created angels originally existed in a state of grace.

The fall of the evil angels seems to be pride. (Is. 14:12-15) Just why Satan and the angels sinned is unknown as sin is an irrational entity. The cause of this sin of rebellion lay entirely in angelic mature-free will…..with no excuse for temptation or any defect in their angelic nature.

The moment each angel willing sinned, they were judged by God. II Peter 2: 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; hell was specifically created for Satan and his angels (Mt. 25:41).

The state of the evil angels is misery. They know they are judged and waiting for eternal judgement. “Have You come to destroy us? (Mark 1:24). Evil angels cannot be forgiven as Jesus’ substitutionary atonement for sins is incarnational. Jesus is our substitute, “being made in the likeness of men” (Phil 2) and not of angels.

On the other hand, the good angels were also judged to into a state of glory, when the evil angels were judged unto condemnation.. Luke 20:35 suggests the angels are likened to resurrected believers. Good angels and resurrected believers no longer have the ability to sin and therefore cannot sin.

———————

God created man, producing his body from the earth, but his soul from nothing and joined it to the body. Man’s spirit, breathed into him by God, is closely related to the soul. The spirit is that faculty of the soul through which the person relates to God (Ps 51:10; Rom 8:16; Eph 4:23) as God is only spirit. The function of our spirit, the deepest part of our being, is related to the spiritual realm: it enables us to contact and receive God Himself. The spirit is the part of us that most directly worships and prays to God (see John 4:24 and Philippians 3:3).

An unbeliever does have a spirit. However most of the capacities of the unregenerate spirit are dead and inoperative; at the new birth, God implants new capacities in the spirit. Romans 8:10: “If Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness”.

Man is created in the image of God meaning the proper disposition Adam’s will was to do only God’s will and his intellect had a greater natural knowledge of God than his fallen children. The image of God in Adam is known as natural perfection in which he could perfectly know, love and glorify God as creator. The image of God not only comprehends all moral but spiritual virtues….that all of Adam’s mind, will, heart, are in complete communion with God. This image is nothing else than God’s righteousness embodied in man.

The natural sense of the Genesis account is that God had made man and every other creature as propagative beings. Like begets like, as is the way of all living creatures. God created supernaturally at the beginning (six days of creation), but He designed into His creatures the ability to propagate and “fill the earth” without any further supernatural acts of creation (post seventh day).

This righteous condition which God created Adam, with all its excellence, Adam would also have propagated to his posterity had he not fallen. In other words, had Adam not fallen, Adam’s children would have inherited this righteousness.

THE FALL

In Genesis, death and sin are absolutely linked together. “for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.” Adam was created with unique characteristics. Adam had the ability not to die, but also the ability to die. Adam had the ability not to sin and the ability to sin. When Adam sinned, God withdrew Adam’s ability not to sin and his ability not to die. Adam lost his original righteousness. Adam is now left with sin and death.
This is the curse. Mankind is not guilty of Adam’s sin…but the divine punishment of God is all his descendants through propagation, inherit the condition God left him in.
Very clearly explained. . .

I will dare to stick my neck out of my hole, to offer a Biblical response to the anti-Zwinglian, hoping to maintain the connection of my neck to my body in the transaction.

1) I'm reluctant to open this can of worms--Romans 5:12-15, where Paul presents the sin/guilt of Adam as being imputed to us, in his demonstration of why all those between Adam and Moses died, when there was no law (with death penalty) in force to sin against, and where there was no law, there could be no sin, but yet all died because of the guilt of sin.

Of what sin? Of the imputed sin of Adam, which was a pattern (Romans 5:14) of Christ.
The sinful Adam was a pattern of the sinless Christ? Pray tell, how? Isn't that backwards?

Bottom line: as the sin of Adam is imputed to those born of Adam, so the righteousness of Christ is imputed to those born of Christ (Romans 5:18-19, Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Romans 4:1-11), as it was imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6) by faith in the promise (Genesis 15:5) of seed (Jesus Christ).
Just as we were made sinners in Adam, so also we are made righteous in Christ by faith (Romans 5:19).

2) Likewise, Adam's sin is imputed to us, not "inherited."
We inherit his fallen nature by birth, his sin is imputed to us at birth (Romans 5:19),
as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6).
Adam's original righteousness ceased to exist and in its place was introduced a state of moral depravity and this new state of moral depravity is now their natural state or condition and it is passed by the common course of nature to all Adam’s descendants.

The fact that any human dies regardless of age is indicative of Adam’s death passed on to all humanity. The fact that any human sins regardless of age is evidence of Adam’s sin passed on to all humanity. All humanity inherits Adam’s death and his guilt. All humanity needs the forgiveness of sins regardless of age.

What about infant sin?

So how is it possible that an infant can be sinful and guilty without having committing actual sins personally?

The soul of the newborn infant is derived from its parents, in the same way Eve’s soul was derived from Adam. Scripture informs us God breathed life into man only once and we are never told that it was repeated. Therefore, God breathed the breath of life (soul) into Adam not Eve. Eve acquires her soul from Adam. We see a similar instance in the Incarnation. Jesus derives his sinless nature from the Holy Spirit and not from Mary.
In conformity to Scripture, the place where the seat of sin resides is the soul. This is the immaterial part of man. In the Fall, Adam’s sin now resides in his soul. Adam’s sin is passed on from parent to child through propagation. That propagation includes the sinful soul.
How this occurs is unknown and how the soul contracts sin is unknown.
We find it explained in Romans 5:12-15, where Adam's sin is imputed to us, paralleling the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us (Romans 5:18-19, Romans 4:1-11).
With the soul contaminated, we inherit Adam’s sin. When the sinful soul is passed on from parent to child through propagation, this explains how a infant could be sinful and guilty without having committed sins personally.
According to Romans 5:12-15, Adam's sin is imputed to us at birth, rather than inherited.
This then also relieves God from the charge of being the author of sin or responsible for its continuance.
The charge of being responsible for the continuance of sin also includes his being responsible for the continuance of Adam's original righteousness in Jesus Christ. (Romans 4:1-11, Romans 5:19).
Adam and Adam’s descendants are solely responsible for the continuance of sin. Sin is therefore not an external substance or learned behavior of the environment, but the very part of the essence of what it means to be a person.
They are responsible for the practice and guilt of their own sin.
But God is responsible for the imputation of Adam's sin/guilt to them at birth,
just as he is responsible for the imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith.
Everything follows from seeds of it own nature. No black crow ever produces a white dove, nor a ferocious lion a gentle lamb, and no man polluted with inborn sin ever begets a holy child.
All right on target. . .

Go easy on me now, or I may not hang around.:liturgy:
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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I was hoping to see you exegete 1 Timothy 6:15 for him.

Absolutely SIMPLE. We make a distinction between FINITE and immortal (Man and Angels) and ETERNAL and IMMORTAL (GOD). Hello McFLY!

YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

The Scriptures are repeat with examples of man's and angels immorality. More on this tomorrow as I have more pressing issues to deal with.
 
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Clare73

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Absolutely SIMPLE. We make a distinction between FINITE and immortal (Man and Angels) and ETERNAL and IMMORTAL (GOD). Hello McFLY!

YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

The Scriptures are repeat with examples of man's and angels immorality. More on this tomorrow as I have more pressing issues to deal with.
Agreed. . .it's not for me that I wanted to see you exegete it.

Some don't believe in the immortality of the human spirit.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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glad you enjoyed that post.

Thank you, for letting me enjoy your post. I am most gracious to be in your academic and biblical scholarly presence on CF. May God bless you in your humble posting of your opinions of others on new threads. Amen.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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I was hoping to see you exegete 1 Timothy 6:15 for him.

Yes, we make a distinction between eternal/immortal and finite/immortal.

The clearest example the finite/immortal I can think of is the resurrection not only our souls live forever, but our bodies also.

I Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;

I Cor. 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality,

Other examples:


Mt. 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.




 
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Clare73

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Yes, we make a distinction between eternal/immortal and finite/immortal.
The clearest example the finite/immortal I can think of is the resurrection not only our souls live forever, but our bodies also.
I Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
I Cor. 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality,
Other examples:

Mt. 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
No comment on imputation of Adam's sin, but at least my neck is still attached. . .grateful here for small favors. ;)
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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No comment on imputation of Adam's sin, but at least my neck is still attached. . .grateful here for small favors.

2)
We inherit his fallen nature by birth, his sin is imputed to us at birth (Romans 5:19),
as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6).

This is correct and you threaded that needle very well. The word impute is found in Romans 5 (ἐλλογέω) governs vs. 12-19.

However, even inheriting Adam's fallen nature, hence our sin nature... is sin itself.

More on this later this morning.
 
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Clare73

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This is correct and you threaded that needle very well. The word
impute is found in Romans 5 (ἐλλογέω) governs vs. 12-19.
However, even inheriting Adam's fallen nature, hence our sin nature... is sin itself.
More on this later this morning.
Wow!. . .you zipped right through Romans 5:12-19 with no problem!

That's a first for me!

Are you a professor?
.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Are you a professor?

No. But I did have some technical theological training in my younger years. Spent the last 25 years as in failure analysis troubleshooting electrical-mechanical systems. Learned high end problem solving skills, which I take over I somethime use on CF.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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No comment on imputation of Adam's sin, but at least my neck is still attached. . .grateful here for small favors.


The intent of the OP is to indirectly critique the Age of Accountability. Hence my usage of the term “inherit.” Baptist should have no problem theoretically with Adam’s children “inheriting” Adams righteousness if he hadn’t fallen, but certainly have problems children of fallen Adam “inheriting” Adam’s guilt. The AoA’er really don’t use “impute” but do react to “inherit.”

AoA’er use the Angelic model of the origin of sin. Children sin responsibly at a certain age just like the angels did. However, human sin is propagated through Adam’s one sin via imputation which negates the angelic model. It is the curse which is passed on to Adam’s descendants which makes them guilty, not Adam actual sin.

Therefore, AoA’er believe they inherit a sin nature which is always inclined to sin but not Adam’s guilt. Notice, whenever they say we have a “sin nature” it really is never defined.

So lets deal with this concept of a “sin nature.” My argument is whatever Baptist say about “sin nature” that “sin nature” is sin itself.

Another example would be a teenager saying "Pastor is it sin if I.....?" And a common topic of these questions is teenage sexuality. These kinds of questions are motivated by a desire to somehow justify yourself in your actions. Because what the teenage boy is trying to is finding out how far he can go and what's sin and what isn't sin. And the teenager wants the pastor to say, “well, of course not, that's not a sin.” Then the teenager continues on. When in reality, the pastor should always say, “It probably is.”

The fact of the matter is we have to realize is that sin permeates us completely. And because of original sin (both inherited and imputed), everything we do is tainted by sin. Everything. We can't free ourselves from it...the desire to sin is sin itself.

We are guilty. Guilty people do guilty things. Even if you do something right, it's still polluted by sin. It's still tainted. And so you don't have to play this kind of game of "wow now": When does it become a sin? Is it a sin if I do this? Or what about this? And what about that? The fact of the matter is I'm a sinner. It's all simple. I need God's grace, I need his forgiveness all the way through my life.

ALL INCLINATION TO SIN IS SIN.

Our Lord teaches this in Matthew 5. And he gives us four examples. The Pharisees and certainly St. Paul had a narrow view of the commandment. And Paul even thought he was blameless of the law until it came to Coveting as it is an internal desire (Romans 7). However Jesus expands the meaning of the commandments…

Example 1. Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;

I john 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Anger and hate are internal emotions that lead to murder. This is sin.

Example 2 Matt 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Here this commandment is expanded to all lustful desires of the heart, will and reason.

Example 3 Mt 5:29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Here Jesus uses hyperbole where the “eye” is substituted for the sinful desire.

Example 4 Matthew 5:30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. Here Jesus uses hyperbole where the “hand” is substituted for the sinful desire.

The truth of imputation of sin is it is all consuming of the human nature, in need of God’s saving grace.


Imputation of Sin and Abortion.

This is harsh reality. Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What is abortion? Abortion is the rejection of the gospel for that child. Abortion is the rejection of the kingdom of heaven for that child. Abortion is a rejection of baptism for that child.

To my knowledge the older paedobaptist mega-theologies such as Catholics, Orthodox and Lutherans have no position that aborted babies are damned. But neither are they optimistic.

It is clearly the newer mega theologies such as baptists, American evangelicals, Pentecostals, etc. are OPTIMISTIC about the salvation of the infant. Therefore, we are seeing today no urgency to stop abortion among AoA’ers. All aborted babies go to heaven. La Di da, La di da.

I am not Roman Catholic, but they are the leaders in the urgency to stop abortion. The soul of the child is at immediate risk. This is the truth about imputation.
 
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Clare73

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The intent of the OP is to indirectly critique the Age of Accountability. Hence my usage of the term “inherit.” Baptist should have no problem theoretically with Adam’s children “inheriting” Adams righteousness if he hadn’t fallen, but certainly have problems children of fallen Adam “inheriting” Adam’s guilt. The AoA’er really don’t use “impute” but do react to “inherit.”
AoA’er use the Angelic model of the origin of sin. Children sin responsibly at a certain age just like the angels did. However, human sin is propagated through Adam’s one sin via imputation which negates the angelic model.
Actually, the sin/guilt of Adam's is not propagated, but imputed by God, which imputation is the cause of the condemnation of all mankind (Romans 5:18).
It is the fallen nature that is propagated.
It is the curse which is passed on to Adam’s descendants which makes them guilty, not Adam actual sin.
It is imputation of Adam's sin/guilt which condemns all mankind (Romans 5:18).
The curse is attached only to the Mosaic law (Galatians 3:10).
Therefore, AoA’er believe they inherit a sin nature which is always inclined to sin
but not Adam’s guilt.
They are correct. They do not "inherit" Adam's guilt, rather it is imputed to them.
They have both a sin nature and the guilt of Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-15).
Notice, whenever they say we have a “sin nature” it really is never defined.

So lets deal with this concept of a “sin nature.” My argument is whatever Baptist say about “sin nature” that “sin nature” is sin itself.

Another example would be a teenager saying "Pastor is it sin if I.....?" And a common topic of these questions is teenage sexuality. These kinds of questions are motivated by a desire to somehow justify yourself in your actions. Because what the teenage boy is trying to is finding out how far he can go and what's sin and what isn't sin. And the teenager wants the pastor to say, “well, of course not, that's not a sin.” Then the teenager continues on. When in reality, the pastor should always say, “It probably is.”
The fact of the matter is we have to realize is that sin permeates us completely. And because of original sin (both inherited and imputed),
However, we don't inherit Adam's sin. We inherit his fallen nature.
His sin/guilt is imputed to us.
everything we do is tainted by sin. Everything. We can't free ourselves from it...
the desire to sin is sin itself.
Agreed. . .
We are guilty. Guilty people do guilty things. Even if you do something right, it's still polluted by sin. It's still tainted. And so you don't have to play this kind of game of "wow now": When does it become a sin? Is it a sin if I do this? Or what about this? And what about that? The fact of the matter is I'm a sinner. It's all simple. I need God's grace, I need his forgiveness all the way through my life.

ALL INCLINATION TO SIN IS SIN.

Our Lord teaches this in Matthew 5. And he gives us four examples. The Pharisees and certainly St. Paul had a narrow view of the commandment. And Paul even thought he was blameless of the law until it came to Coveting as it is an internal desire (Romans 7). However Jesus expands the meaning of the commandments…

Example 1. Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;

I john 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Anger and hate are internal emotions that lead to murder. This is sin.

Example 2 Matt 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Here this commandment is expanded to all lustful desires of the heart, will and reason.

Example 3 Mt 5:29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Here Jesus uses hyperbole where the “eye” is substituted for the sinful desire.

Example 4 Matthew 5:30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. Here Jesus uses hyperbole where the “hand” is substituted for the sinful desire.
The truth of imputation of sin is it is all consuming of the human nature, in need of God’s saving grace.
The truth of the imputation of sin is it is a pattern (Romans 5:14) for the imputation of righteousness, the two contrasting imputations being paralleled in Romans 5:18-19.
And the truth about imputation of sin and imputation of righteousness is about the first Adam and the second Adam.
Imputation of Sin and Abortion.

This is harsh reality. Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What is abortion? Abortion is the rejection of the gospel for that child. Abortion is the rejection of the kingdom of heaven for that child. Abortion is a rejection of baptism for that child.

To my knowledge the older paedobaptist mega-theologies such as Catholics, Orthodox and Lutherans have no position that aborted babies are damned. But neither are they optimistic.
It is clearly the newer mega theologies such as baptists, American evangelicals, Pentecostals, etc. are OPTIMISTIC about the salvation of the infant. Therefore,
we are seeing today no urgency to stop abortion among AoA’ers.
All aborted babies go to heaven. La Di da, La di da.
Abortion is about murder. . .nothing more and nothing less. . .end of subject. . .full stop. . .PERIOD.
Abortion needs no mitigation nor justification to alter its sinful nature.
I am not Roman Catholic, but they are the leaders in the urgency to stop abortion.
The soul of the child is at immediate risk. This is the truth about imputation.
However, the NT "thinks" in terms of our spirit and our body. Soul is seldom used.

And if one believes in predestination of the elect, then death in infancy alters the destiny of neither the elect nor the non-elect.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Abortion is about murder. . .nothing more and nothing less. . .end of subject. . .full stop. . .PERIOD.
Abortion needs no mitigation nor justification to alter its sinful nature.

Abortion is not JUST about murder. In the vast majority of case, abortion occurs outside the presence of the Word of God. The promise of Scripture is wherever the Word of God is, the Spirit can convert. The "sword of the spirit is the Word of God." Inotherwords, there is no such thing as a Spiritless Word. Even the unborn, God can convert due to the Word of Gods presence, Jeremiah and John the Baptist are prime examples. Abortion restricts possibility the child will ever come in contact with the Word of God. PERIOD. END OF SUBJECT. FULL STOP. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Wherever the Word is proclaimed regeneration takes place. This is the promise of Scripture.

However, the NT "thinks" in terms of our spirit and our body. Soul is seldom used.
Excuse me?
1 Corinthians 15:45
So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Are you saying, because a biblical word is used less than other biblical word, one is less important. So is repentance more important than confessing, as repentance is used more than confessing? What strange hermenuetics.
 
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Clare73

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Abortion is not JUST about murder. In the vast majority of case, abortion occurs outside the presence of the Word of God. The promise of Scripture is
wherever the Word of God is, the Spirit can convert.
The sovereign Holy Spirit can convert anywhere.
If "conversion" is necessary, he can do so anywhere
The "sword of the spirit is the Word of God." Inotherwords, there is no such thing as a Spiritless Word. Even the unborn, God can convert due to the Word of Gods presence, Jeremiah and John the Baptist are prime examples. Abortion restricts possibility the child will ever come in contact with the Word of God. PERIOD. END OF SUBJECT. FULL STOP. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Wherever the Word is proclaimed regeneration takes place. This is the promise of Scripture.
"However, the NT "thinks" in terms of our spirit and our body. Soul is seldom used."
Yeah, I got that one wrong, didn't I?

I was thinking of Paul's letters, where among all of them, it is mentioned only about half a dozen times.
"Spirit" is the word usually used, and what I am used to.
 
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Abortion is not JUST about murder. In the vast majority of case, abortion occurs outside the presence of the Word of God. The promise of Scripture is wherever the Word of God is, the Spirit can convert. The "sword of the spirit is the Word of God." Inotherwords, there is no such thing as a Spiritless Word. Even the unborn, God can convert due to the Word of Gods presence, Jeremiah and John the Baptist are prime examples. Abortion restricts possibility the child will ever come in contact with the Word of God. PERIOD. END OF SUBJECT. FULL STOP. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Wherever the Word is proclaimed regeneration takes place. This is the promise of Scripture.

However, the NT "thinks" in terms of our spirit and our body. Soul is seldom used.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
 
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