Original Sin?

[sdowney717]

That's predestination surely, and the Bible does not teach predestination but free will and repentance.
God is actively seeking us, but salvation is open to all.
John 3:16

I for one, am going to agree with what Christ says about these things.
If your not in agreement with the sound words of Christ and Pauline doctrine about being chosen of the Father to come to Christ, foreknowledge and predestination of believers, then, you are out of your mind, actually an opponent of God and His grace. For we are saved by grace and not by anything else about us. We are all unworthy sinners destined for hell unless God has mercy on us to save us from our sins.

Paul uses this word from the OT to prove the choice of salvation is of God and not man.
Exodus 33
14 And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here.

16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us?

So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”

17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”

18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”

19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[FrankDux]

Hoo boy, the first mistake is thinking that's a story of a literal account, it isn't

The name " Sin " is the Semitic form of Sumerian " Enzu " meaning " lord of knowledge "

 

[~Anastasia~]

Your keep saying you don't want to argue yet you keep doing just that. Anyways, thanatos is always a judgement. It is never non judgement. It is either a punitive judgement or non punitive judgement. To say the word is not a judgement is laugable. Btw I never said thanatos was "non judgement". Now why don't you make good on you're desire to "not want to argue".

I don't think we are understanding each other.

We can just agree to disagree.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

he

This appears to be a contradiction. If babies and young children are not condemned because they had not the chance to sin, why would they need the redemptive Blood of Christ?

Because mortal flesh would be a problem in the Kingdom of God. "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." (1 Corinthians 15:50) The resurrection of all mortal flesh is achieved through the Blood of Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:22 (1Corinthians 15 is all about resurrection) tells us, "...in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive". It is true that condemnation is based on sin (that is, uncovered sin) and since babies do not commit sin, they are not condemned. But that still doesn't mean that sinless babies don't also need the Blood of Christ, as the means of inheriting eternal life. Resurrection is apparently God's way of defeating death. (1 Corinthians 15:26).

 

[GillDouglas]

1 Corinthians 15:22 (1Corinthians 15 is all about resurrection) tells us, "...in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive". It is true that condemnation is based on sin (that is, uncovered sin) and since babies do not commit sin, they are not condemned. But that still doesn't mean that sinless babies don't also need the Blood of Christ, as the means of inheriting eternal life. Resurrection is apparently God's way of defeating death. (1 Corinthians 15:26).

All of this speak of physical death and physical resurrection, but what you're missing is the spiritual part. Men cannot commune and live eternally with God without spiritual rebirth. The reason being that men died spiritually with Adam. The idea of Original Sin is that we are inherently at odds with God from birth, not willing or able to seek Him. Until God seeks us out and regenerates us from spiritual death unto life, we remain that way.

I believe, in regards to the unborn, young, deaf/blind (or absent from the Word), and incapable that God will take care of these individuals, and bring about their salvation. That's the joy of having a Sovereign God who is the Author and Ruler of everything within His Creation.

FYI - I have six children, and not one of them has been without sin from the moment they were born.

 

[EmSw]

FYI - I have six children, and not one of them has been without sin from the moment they were born.

Doug, what sins did your children commit the first month of life? Did they lie to you? Did they lust after women? Did they disobey you? Did they kill someone? I sure would like to know, as I am sure many others do also.

 

[GillDouglas]

Doug, what sins did your children commit the first month of life? Did they lie to you? Did they lust after women? Did they disobey you? Did they kill someone? I sure would like to know, as I am sure many others do also.

Anger. Selfishness. Disobedience. I've not met a perfect sinless child in my life, because they do not exist.

 

[EmSw]

Anger. Selfishness. Disobedience. I've not met a perfect sinless child in my life, because they do not exist.

From a month-old baby? Come on Doug, get with the real world. Did you tell your month-old baby to do something and they disobeyed you? They got angry when you told them to do something?

Psalm 106
37 They even sacrificed their sons, and their daughters to demons,
38 And shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; and the land was polluted with blood.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

All of this speak of physical death and physical resurrection, but what you're missing is the spiritual part. Men cannot commune and live eternally with God without spiritual rebirth. The reason being that men died spiritually with Adam. The idea of Original Sin is that we are inherently at odds with God from birth, not willing or able to seek Him. Until God seeks us out and regenerates us from spiritual death unto life, we remain that way.

I believe, in regards to the unborn, young, deaf/blind (or absent from the Word), and incapable that God will take care of these individuals, and bring about their salvation. That's the joy of having a Sovereign God who is the Author and Ruler of everything within His Creation.

FYI - I have six children, and not one of them has been without sin from the moment they were born.

Sin is knowing that something is wrong and doing it anyway. Babies and young children do not know the difference between right and wrong--the Scripture says so. (see Romans 9:11) God's moral law is learned. I agree that humans cannot commune and live eternally with God without spiritual birth and resurrection. That is effected for babies and young children by the Blood of Jesus, by the power of His Spirit--as it is for all the rest of mankind. The only difference is that it is not a conscious choice on the part of infants (of course, our Calvinist friends would tell us that salvation isn't a matter of choice for anyone, anyway ).

 

[EmSw]

Sin is knowing that something is wrong and doing it anyway. Babies and young children do not know the difference between right and wrong--the Scripture says so. (see Romans 9:11) God's moral law is learned. I agree that humans cannot commune and live eternally with God without spiritual birth and resurrection. That is effected for babies and young children by the Blood of Jesus, by the power of His Spirit--as it is for all the rest of mankind. The only difference is that it is not a conscious choice on the part of infants (of course, our Calvinist friends would tell us that salvation isn't a matter of choice for anyone, anyway ).

Plus, if Paul said he was alive without the law (Romans 7:9), how are babies not alive? They know nothing about the law, and if the law is presented to them, they would have no understanding of it. As far as they know, you are talking about eating.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This is one reason Orthodox do not believe in the idea of original sin (original guilt), which is a more recent and western concept.

Babies are born like all human beings, mortal, under the curse of death which affects all the natural world, and is the result of Adam's sin. Adam turned from God, cut himself off from the Source of Life itself (God) and as a natural consequence, dies a physical death. Because man is in a sense the priest over the creation, it's crowning creature, responsible for stewardship over creation and meant to rule over it, the entrance of death through man's sin fell to all creation.

But babies aren't born guilty of Adam's sin. No guilt falls on them until they choose to sin. Sparrows don't die because they are guilty, neither do fish or trees or grass.

Christ not only provides for redemption from personal sins we are guilty of, but also provides for man to be reconciled to God and - just as man led all of creation into the curse of death through his sin, also is part of the eventual restoration of all things to be one day rescued from death because of the priesthood of believers who are reconciled to God and part of the eventual overcoming of death made possible by the defeat of death by Jesus Christ having died (being God) and rising again to life.

I hope that makes sense. But physical death is not the consequence of our personal sins, but the result of Adam's sin, since all die. We have no guilt until we commit our own sin. This is why babies can die, yet are innocent of personal sin.

We trust in God's mercy for their salvation, which is still needed, as we all need Christ.

But this is why we never developed a theology of original sin as often understood today in the west, nor was it the belief of the Apostles or the early Church.

 

[Buggins]

I for one, am going to agree with what Christ says about these things.
If your not in agreement with the sound words of Christ and Pauline doctrine about being chosen of the Father to come to Christ, foreknowledge and predestination of believers, then, you are out of your mind, actually an opponent of God and His grace. For we are saved by grace and not by anything else about us. We are all unworthy sinners destined for hell unless God has mercy on us to save us from our sins.

Paul uses this word from the OT to prove the choice of salvation is of God and not man.
Exodus 33
14 And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here.

16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us?
So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”

17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”

18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”

19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

>Of course I don't deny those verses and passages of Scripture, but we have to hold them in balance with the many other passages which holds men guilty and calls them to repentance. God would not plead with men to turn and repent if a) they could not, and b)if He were not willing to forgive the truly penitent.
Although we acknowledge that salvation is of God and it is the Holy Spirit at work within us to will and do of His good pleasure, man is still held accountable.
Our Lord did not say to Nicodemus that it was up to God whether Nicodemus would be born again, He said 'Ye must be born again'.
Undoubtedly it is a mystery, but you cannot emphasise the one statement and ignore the other.

 

[sdowney717]

>Of course I don't deny those verses and passages of Scripture, but we have to hold them in balance with the many other passages which holds men guilty and calls them to repentance. God would not plead with men to turn and repent if a) they could not, and b)if He were not willing to forgive the truly penitent.
Although we acknowledge that salvation is of God and it is the Holy Spirit at work within us to will and do of His good pleasure, man is still held accountable.
Our Lord did not say to Nicodemus that it was up to God whether Nicodemus would be born again, He said 'Ye must be born again'.
Undoubtedly it is a mystery, but you cannot emphasise the one statement and ignore the other.

What your describing is a matter of your viewing point which is imperfect, since you can not have the mind of God. A soul that God has chosen will be taught by the Holy Spirit to come to Christ.
Here Christ says simply seeing Christ, and they did see Christ's miracles, YET they still did not believe in Him for one important reason, verse 36-37.

So you idea of balance is actually imbalance, and we are told to align our minds with the scriptures, not with ourselves they way we naturally think .

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”


43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Those taught by the Father are the ones who come to the Son.
If your not enabled by the Father you will not be taught by the Father and you will not come to the Son to have life.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Since not all persons come to Christ, then not all persons have been enabled by the Father, since God did not predestine them to be conformed to Christ.

 

[GillDouglas]

This is one reason Orthodox do not believe in the idea of original sin (original guilt), which is a more recent and western concept.

I believe the first to speak of the idea of Original sin was a disciple of John the Evangelist called Saint Ireanus, which was later expanded upon by Augustine. He asked the question "What then is the origin of my willing bad deeds and not willing good ones?"

Augustine's determined that Adam and Eve, as the representatives of all of mankind, had failed to obey God during their time of 'probation' and established this 'curse' in which all who are natural descendants are now born into. We are born slaves to sin, we do not choose slavery. He came to these conclusions after intense study in order to better debate Pelagius and refute his teachings.

This was all before the schism, that split the church.

 

[Buggins]

What your describing is a matter of your viewing point which is imperfect, since you can not have the mind of God. A soul that God has chosen will be taught by the Holy Spirit to come to Christ.
Here Christ says simply seeing Christ, and they did see Christ's miracles, YET they still did not believe in Him for one important reason, verse 36-37.

So you idea of balance is actually imbalance, and we are told to align our minds with the scriptures, not with ourselves they way we naturally think .

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”


43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Those taught by the Father are the ones who come to the Son.
If your not enabled by the Father you will not be taught by the Father and you will not come to the Son to have life.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Since not all persons come to Christ, then not all persons have been enabled by the Father, since God did not predestine them to be conformed to Christ.

"What your describing is a matter of your viewing point which is imperfect, since you can not have the mind of God."
And neither can you!
Get that?
Neither can you.
All YOU can do is the same as all I can do; that is read the Scriptures and try to understand the Scriptures.
Even amongst all born again Christians there are different views on different issues. Yet who would have the temerity to say they are not Christians because they don't believe the Bible teaches they were predestined* to be saved? * i.e. they had NO CHOICE about going to heaven, just as their fellow sinners had NO CHOICE but to go to Hell...
Which makes nonsense of God's plea in Isaiah 1..
"18 “Come now, let us reason together,
says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient you shall eat the good of the land;
20 but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword;
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

 

[JackRT]

All of this speak of physical death and physical resurrection, but what you're missing is the spiritual part. Men cannot commune and live eternally with God without spiritual rebirth. The reason being that men died spiritually with Adam. The idea of Original Sin is that we are inherently at odds with God from birth, not willing or able to seek Him. Until God seeks us out and regenerates us from spiritual death unto life, we remain that way.

I believe, in regards to the unborn, young, deaf/blind (or absent from the Word), and incapable that God will take care of these individuals, and bring about their salvation. That's the joy of having a Sovereign God who is the Author and Ruler of everything within His Creation.

FYI - I have six children, and not one of them has been without sin from the moment they were born.

In traditional Christian theology 'sin' has three characteristics, all of which must be met for an act to be a sin::

1. it must be an 'evil'

2. it must be known to be an evil

3. it is done anyhow, voluntarily

This is why those suffering from mental disease or disability and young children are judged as incapable of sin. This applies to animals as well. So no, your children were not born sinful.

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

 

[GillDouglas]

"What your describing is a matter of your viewing point which is imperfect, since you can not have the mind of God."
And neither can you!
Get that?
Neither can you.
All YOU can do is the same as all I can do; that is read the Scriptures and try to understand the Scriptures.
Even amongst all born again Christians there are different views on different issues. Yet who would have the temerity to say they are not Christians because they don't believe the Bible teaches they were predestined* to be saved? * i.e. they had NO CHOICE about going to heaven, just as their fellow sinners had NO CHOICE but to go to Hell...
Which makes nonsense of God's plea in Isaiah 1..
"18 “Come now, let us reason together,
says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient you shall eat the good of the land;
20 but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword;
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

It is a matter of better understanding God, and His role in regards to His Creation. You have to determine if God is in control of the story in which He is the Author, or He is not. It is also important to better understand the condition of man after the fall, and the nature in which his choices are made within.

Adam and Eve cut themselves off from the source of all life and goodness, declaring their independence from God when they chose to eat the fruit. What they deserved was the immediate and just wrath of God for their rebellion, but that was not how it was determined to be in eternity. Praise God that the story did not end there.

Men have the free will to make choices, but these choices are made within the confines of their nature and the story that was written for them. Every choice that you have made in your lifetime has brought you to this point, and it is exactly where you're supposed to be. There is no luck, or chance, or coincidences. All things happen in accordance of the fulfillment of God's decrees and His providential guidance. Every persons life and the grand events through mankind's history will bring us exactly where we're supposed to be.

This also includes the salvation of men. If you believe that the death of Christ has the power to save all people, and then say that a man can choose not to be saved, then you have given power to the man and declared the death of Christ powerless.

Those that choose Christ, have been given a new nature and the faith to believe in His saving works. Those that do not, have remained in their old nature, having no desire or ability to seek God. Each declaring to be free of God's authority and rule, seeking every hearts desire, proving worthy of the curse of spiritual death passed down from Adam.

 

[GillDouglas]

In traditional Christian theology 'sin' has three characteristics, all of which must be met for an act to be a sin::

1. it must be an 'evil'

2. it must be known to be an evil

3. it is done anyhow, voluntarily

This is why those suffering from mental disease or disability and young children are judged as incapable of sin. This applies to animals as well. So no, your children were not born sinful.

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

I appreciate your understanding, but I must disagree.

Eve was the first to sin when she added her own words to God's decree. She said to the serpent: "‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”' (Genesis 3:3) Adam sinned the moment he chose to eat the fruit, not after he ate. You cannot put the blame on the tree for risk of inadvertently placing it on God.

I have a nine year old daughter who's brain was damaged by a common strain of HSV at 9 months old, the doctors called it herpes simplex encephalitis. While she is by no means as capable as her siblings, she demonstrates the ability to sin just as easily as any other person. At what point did my daughter decide that she would rebel against God and become a slave to sin?

Now some would say, if they believed she was a sinner after observing her behavior, that her only hope of salvation was to hear the gospel, believe it and repent. I would whole hardheartedly disagree since salvation is of the Lord and it is He who saves, that He has determined a unique plan for her and her eternal security. If it is His will to do so, He work work upon her heart and bring about an internal faith and relationship between them. My daughter, a miracle of God, will return to Him, Lord willing.

 

[Buggins]

It is a matter of better understanding God, and His role in regards to His Creation. You have to determine if God is in control of the story in which He is the Author, or He is not. It is also important to better understand the condition of man after the fall, and the nature in which his choices are made within.

Adam and Eve cut themselves off from the source of all life and goodness, declaring their independence from God when they chose to eat the fruit. What they deserved was the immediate and just wrath of God for their rebellion, but that was not how it was determined to be in eternity. Praise God that the story did not end there.

Men have the free will to make choices, but these choices are made within the confines of their nature and the story that was written for them. Every choice that you have made in your lifetime has brought you to this point, and it is exactly where you're supposed to be. There is no luck, or chance, or coincidences. All things happen in accordance of the fulfillment of God's decrees and His providential guidance. Every persons life and the grand events through mankind's history will bring us exactly where we're supposed to be.

This also includes the salvation of men. If you believe that the death of Christ has the power to save all people, and then say that a man can choose not to be saved, then you have given power to the man and declared the death of Christ powerless.

Those that choose Christ, have been given a new nature and the faith to believe in His saving works. Those that do not, have remained in their old nature, having no desire or ability to seek God. Each declaring to be free of God's authority and rule, seeking every hearts desire, proving worthy of the curse of spiritual death passed down from Adam.

It is a matter of better understanding God, and His role in regards to His Creation. You have to determine if God is in control of the story in which He is the Author, or He is not. It is also important to better understand the condition of man after the fall, and the nature in which his choices are made within.

Adam and Eve cut themselves off from the source of all life and goodness, declaring their independence from God when they chose to eat the fruit. What they deserved was the immediate and just wrath of God for their rebellion, but that was not how it was determined to be in eternity. Praise God that the story did not end there.

Men have the free will to make choices, but these choices are made within the confines of their nature and the story that was written for them. Every choice that you have made in your lifetime has brought you to this point, and it is exactly where you're supposed to be. There is no luck, or chance, or coincidences. All things happen in accordance of the fulfillment of God's decrees and His providential guidance. Every persons life and the grand events through mankind's history will bring us exactly where we're supposed to be.

This also includes the salvation of men. If you believe that the death of Christ has the power to save all people, and then say that a man can choose not to be saved, then you have given power to the man and declared the death of Christ powerless.

Those that choose Christ, have been given a new nature and the faith to believe in His saving works. Those that do not, have remained in their old nature, having no desire or ability to seek God. Each declaring to be free of God's authority and rule, seeking every hearts desire, proving worthy of the curse of spiritual death passed down from Adam.

"Men have the free will to make choices, but these choices are made within the confines of their nature and the story that was written for them. Every choice that you have made in your lifetime has brought you to this point, and it is exactly where you're supposed to be."

So you haven't actually got freedom, have you? You've got something that sounds like freedom, but.... it isn't. And every decision you have made, every sin you have committed, every wrong turn was all so that you could be exactly where you are now??
What a load of baloney.

"This also includes the salvation of men. If you believe that the death of Christ has the power to save all people, and then say that a man can choose not to be saved, then you have given power to the man and declared the death of Christ powerless."

What?
Jesus said in regards to His return,
Luke 18>
6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

and Luke 13>
34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"

And Matthew 721 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."

Of course men can resist the offer of salvation because they have free will and their deeds are evil. That in no way lessens the death and resurrection of our Lord in terms of salvation.

 

[Buggins]

In traditional Christian theology 'sin' has three characteristics, all of which must be met for an act to be a sin::

1. it must be an 'evil'

2. it must be known to be an evil

3. it is done anyhow, voluntarily

This is why those suffering from mental disease or disability and young children are judged as incapable of sin. This applies to animals as well. So no, your children were not born sinful.

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

In traditional Christian theology 'sin' has three characteristics, all of which must be met for an act to be a sin::

1. it must be an 'evil'

2. it must be known to be an evil

3. it is done anyhow, voluntarily

This is why those suffering from mental disease or disability and young children are judged as incapable of sin. This applies to animals as well. So no, your children were not born sinful.

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

Good points Jack.
Adam and Eve did not immediately acquire a sinful nature, they were kicked out of the garden of Eden and had to make their living by the sweat of Adam's brow. No mention of Adam becoming a terrible person. What he did was to disobey and open the way for death to come into the world, and with death comes corruption. Adam now knew the difference between good and evil, and he and his descendants became more and more corrupted by evil. But crucially, they chose to follow the enticements of sin and became enslaved by it. I agree with you; babies are innocent.