Original Languages Forum

PastorMike · Mar 9, 2015

PastorMike said:
Ok, let me ask this question then... assuming we all understand that Christ is NOT Jesus last name but rather that it was a title meaning "the anointed one"

Are we reading this verse then as "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God"

or

"faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ" the anointed word

IOW... does faith come by hearing the word of God or does faith come by hearing the anointed word?

Truthfrees said:
Good question.

That is the question, I am trying to develop a line of thinking first before we look at the main thoughts in the passage...

In Northern Ireland the word of God has been preached and preached and preached... the common consensus is that we have been preached out... to follow the logic, we have heard and heard and heard the word of God so why hasn't faith come?

But if the other translations are true and it is the word of Christ (anointed) then it is not necessarily hearing the word of God that brings faith but hearing the anointed word... Which throws a whole different slant on this whole passage... (more on that later)

That's what I am trying to get at, that is why I am trying to get help from my WOF brothers so we can understand this passage without non WOF putting their 2 cents in...

Truthfrees · Mar 9, 2015

AbbaLove said:
Don't understand that what seems so obvious to myself and Truthfrees is not obvious to another WOF Believer

Truthfrees has said it about as plain as plain can be ...

The Word of God and the Word of Christ are one and the same. I always assumed that those of WOF believed this to be true without questioning ~ Three Persons In ONE Divine Essence

If it were possible I'd display a dozen faith icons, one of which would be WOF.

Hi AbbaLove,

I think there's been a misunderstanding of what PastorMike meant by his 2nd question.

You're a sincere God-loving, Word-loving brother and friend. You're more than welcome in our forum. It's a pleasure to converse with someone who respects and understands wof.

PastorMike is solid wof.

He wasn't disagreeing with my post.

He was asking something different than what my post addressed.

I answered him with my understanding of what I thought he meant, but his 2nd question showed he was looking for something more specific than I had at first perceived.

IOW, the motive of his 2nd question was to gain deeper understanding of Romans 10:17.

Shalom my brother.

Truthfrees · Mar 9, 2015

DMW said:
Not a Greek Scholar, but in the example you just gave, both the KJV and the NKJV say "God" because they use the textus receptus version of the Greek manuscript that has "Theos" for God in Romans 10:17. More modern translations (virtually all of them) use older Greek manuscripts, they have "Christos" for Christ. Endless debate about which Greek text is right, but this is a reason many won't let go of their King James Bible.

DMW said:
Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ.
Thats the Greek behind the KJV/NKJV. See the last word? It's Theos (God).

Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ.
Thats the Greek (Nestle/aland) behind NASB/ESV etc. See the last word, it is Christos (Christ).

Font's aren't coming through right, but you get the idea.

PastorMike said:
That is the question, I am trying to develop a line of thinking first before we look at the main thoughts in the passage...

In Northern Ireland the word of God has been preached and preached and preached... the common consensus is that we have been preached out... to follow the logic, we have heard and heard and heard the word of God so why hasn't faith come?

But if the other translations are true and it is the word of Christ (anointed) then it is not necessarily hearing the word of God that brings faith but hearing the anointed word... Which throws a whole different slant on this whole passage... (more on that later)

That's what I am trying to get at, that is why I am trying to get help from my WOF brothers so we can understand this passage.

I'm not sure how we can determine which of the original texts is accurate.

"So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God - Christ - Anointed." - Romans 10:17

If "the word of Christ - Anointed" is accurate then IMO, it would mean mixing faith with the hearing of the Word is necessary.

"[ For] The ·Good News [Gospel] was preached to us just as it was to them. But the ·teaching [message; word] they heard did not help them, because they heard it but did not ·accept [combine; join] it with faith." - Hebrews 4:2

And as you say anointed preaching of the Word could most clearly be a missing ingredient.

IOW, anointed preaching is what brings faith to the hearers, and dry soulish preaching is insufficient.

PastorMike · Mar 9, 2015

WP Nicholson is reported to have told a story about having a dream one night and in his dream he saw the devil standing on a street corner preaching the gospel, so he stopped to listen, he said it was the clearest gospel he ever heard, after the devil was finished preaching he went up to him and asked... "aren't you the devil' the devil answered... 'Yes, I am"... WP replied... ' then why are you preaching the gospel?' to which the devil replied...' because nothing destroys the gospel more, than a gospel preached without the anointing of the Holy Spirit'

Now, it was reported as a dream but you can understand the absolute necessity to have the anointing of the Holy Spirit when you preach the word of God...

Where does this dream tie in with our theology I don't know, but it gives us cause to examine our preaching methods and our hearts before the Lord...

Truthfrees · Mar 9, 2015

PastorMike said:
WP Nicholson is reported to have told a story about having a dream one night and in his dream he saw the devil standing on a street corner preaching the gospel, so he stopped to listen, he said it was the clearest gospel he ever heard, after the devil was finished preaching he went up to him and asked... "aren't you the devil' the devil answered... 'Yes, I am"... WP replied... ' then why are you preaching the gospel?' to which the devil replied...' because nothing destroys the gospel more, than a gospel preached without the anointing of the Holy Spirit'

Now, it was reported as a dream but you can understand the absolute necessity to have the anointing of the Holy Spirit when you preach the word of God...

Where does this dream tie in with our theology I don't know, but it gives us cause to examine our preaching methods and our hearts before the Lord...

Here's a link to 52 translations of Romans 10:17: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans 10:17

Notice how VOICE says: "So faith proceeds from hearing, as we listen to the message about God’s Anointed."

He's put "God" and "Anointed" together.

I think the original language could easily say: "So faith proceeds from hearing, as we listen to the message Anointed by God."

Does anyone have the word for word on this as posted by DWM?

Rom. 10:17 - " ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ - Χριστοῦ."

This is the Greek word order but what is the grammatical order for English?

Therefore * and * faith * on * hearing * , * and * hearing * out from * rhema word * God - Christ - Anointed.

PastorMike · Mar 9, 2015

the word for word in this verse is ῥήματος rhematos or basically the rhema word of God or Christ as the case may be...

now faith · Mar 10, 2015

Faith comes by the Holy Spirit who guides you in the Word.

Faith cometh by hearing...your inner witness and your hearing by the living Word
John: 1. 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You do not read the Bible,the Bible reads you.

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