Origin of organic molecule in space?

AV1611VET

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We know there are organic molecules embedded in cold space objects. However, I can't figure out where do they come from.

Any help from folks in this forum?
Genesis 6?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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We know there are organic molecules embedded in cold space objects. However, I can't figure out where do they come from.

Any help from folks in this forum?
Organic molecules in space build up piecemeal. Atoms join to form simple molecules - H[sub]2[/sub], Methane, etc - which in turn join up to form larger molecules - we've even found an amino acid, glycine, in space. Here is an article of large, complex, organic molecules in space, and how they form.

The Earth is teeming with advanced forms of life which will eat any fledgling organic molecules, but places without such voracious eaters - such as a meteor in space or prebiotic Earth in the past - would more easily develop organic molecules.
 
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juvenissun

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Organic molecules in space build up piecemeal. Atoms join to form simple molecules - H[sub]2[/sub], Methane, etc - which in turn join up to form larger molecules - we've even found an amino acid, glycine, in space. Here is an article of large, complex, organic molecules in space, and how they form.

The Earth is teeming with advanced forms of life which will eat any fledgling organic molecules, but places without such voracious eaters - such as a meteor in space or prebiotic Earth in the past - would more easily develop organic molecules.

This is where the puzzle is. How could this process take place, for example on a comet?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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This is where the puzzle is. How could this process take place, for example on a comet?
Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, etc, are there, and comets aren't necessarily inert. A comet's tail exists because the heat of the Sun is blasting and melting parts of the icy comet off - who's to say that, in such turbulance, masses of organic molecules don't form?

There's also the case of nebulae and interstellar dust clouds, which can be quite warm if basking in the glow of several newborn, nearby stars - who's to say the basic chemicals from the supernova that created the nebula, the carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, can't meet and combine in the nebula itself? Who's to say that amino acids aren't produced en masse by simple collisions?

It may seem far-fetched, but the universe operates on such phenomena happening. Heavy elements in stars only exist by infinitely improbable events happening - two molecules, rare beyond rare, colliding in the vastness of a star. But, given sufficient time and numbers, it happens, and it happens a lot.

So, the same is true for organic molecules in stars. It is simply two hydrogen atoms colliding and sticking together, two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom colliding and forming water, four hydrogen and a carbon colliding to form methane, etc. As rare as any one collision may be, given the sheer abundance of these materials, it's not surprising that there are enough fortuitous combinations to make masses of complex molecules.
 
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AV1611VET

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Just speculating.

We know that angels came to earth and married our women and had children, etc.

That's not to say that some of the angels could have taken their families elsewhere in the universe.

I know that sounds [pun] far fetched [/pun], but so does organic molecules in cold space objects -- which seems to be out of place with how the universe was created.
 
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AV1611VET

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I know that sounds [pun] far fetched [/pun], but so does organic molecules in cold space objects -- which seems to be out of place with how the universe was created.
It may seem far-fetched, but the universe operates on such phenomena happening.
There's something wrong with this picture, but I can't quite put my finger on it -- :p
 
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TemperateSeaIsland

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I know that sounds [pun] far fetched [/pun], but so does organic molecules in cold space objects -- which seems to be out of place with how the universe was created.

Why out of place? They're just chemicals.
 
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juvenissun

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Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, etc, are there, and comets aren't necessarily inert. A comet's tail exists because the heat of the Sun is blasting and melting parts of the icy comet off - who's to say that, in such turbulance, masses of organic molecules don't form?

There's also the case of nebulae and interstellar dust clouds, which can be quite warm if basking in the glow of several newborn, nearby stars - who's to say the basic chemicals from the supernova that created the nebula, the carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, can't meet and combine in the nebula itself? Who's to say that amino acids aren't produced en masse by simple collisions?

It may seem far-fetched, but the universe operates on such phenomena happening. Heavy elements in stars only exist by infinitely improbable events happening - two molecules, rare beyond rare, colliding in the vastness of a star. But, given sufficient time and numbers, it happens, and it happens a lot.

So, the same is true for organic molecules in stars. It is simply two hydrogen atoms colliding and sticking together, two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom colliding and forming water, four hydrogen and a carbon colliding to form methane, etc. As rare as any one collision may be, given the sheer abundance of these materials, it's not surprising that there are enough fortuitous combinations to make masses of complex molecules.

What you said is fine. There are elements and there are chances of organic molecule formation.

But, there is one critical limitation. Won't this molecules also break down in the same environment? In general, the space environment should be unfavorable to the preservation of organic molecules. For small objects like asteroids or comets, the effect of cosmic radiation should be very severe and is capable to destroy any organic molecule formed by chance very quickly.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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What you said is fine. There are elements and there are chances of organic molecule formation.

But, there is one critical limitation. Won't this molecules also break down in the same environment? In general, the space environment should be unfavorable to the preservation of organic molecules. For small objects like asteroids or comets, the effect of cosmic radiation should be very severe and is capable to destroy any organic molecule formed by chance very quickly.
Large clusters of molecules - cells, tissues, etc - would break down through mechanical action, but actual molecules themselves are quite robust.

Ionising radiation, perhaps from a nearby star, can be detrimental to life, and it's though to be one of the major hindrances to space-born life developing - we on Earth have the atmosphere and magnetosphere to protect us, while comets do not. Nonetheless, if organic molecules formed in a nebula, that could well protect them from destruction by nearby stars, much like our atmosphere.

Radiation is only a major player when you're near to a powerful source, such as a star. If you're not, then you're more or less fine. Nebulae are large, far larger than the 'danger zone' of a star.
 
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AV1611VET

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Why out of place? They're just chemicals.
Well, if that's all they are, then I would say it's just part of how God created this universe; but if they are remnants of living tissue, then I would say there's a story behind it that wasn't recorded in God's Diary.
 
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TemperateSeaIsland

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Well, if that's all they are, then I would say it's just part of how God created this universe; but if they are remnants of living tissue, then I would say there's a story behind it that wasn't recorded in God's Diary.
Nah I don't think anyone is really suggesting these organics have a biological origin. Generally these things form through the action of radiation on simple molecules that leads to excitment giving you a anion, cation or radical and these reactive species (not to be confused with the biological term for species) will react with another molecule making a larger more complex molecule. As an organic chemist I find it very interesting.
 
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AV1611VET

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Nah I don't think anyone is really suggesting these organics have a biological origin. Generally these things form through the action of radiation on simple molecules that leads to excitment giving you a anion, cation or radical and these reactive species (not to be confused with the biological term for species) will react with another molecule making a larger more complex molecule. As an organic chemist I find it very interesting.
Just for clarification, by 'organic molecule', are we talking one of those CHNO things?
 
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Just for clarification, by 'organic molecule', are we talking one of those CHNO things?

Yes, just carbon/nitrogen chains, not proteins or anything like that.

Acetamide is one example of such molecules: CH3CONH2
 
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juvenissun

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Large clusters of molecules - cells, tissues, etc - would break down through mechanical action, but actual molecules themselves are quite robust.

Ionising radiation, perhaps from a nearby star, can be detrimental to life, and it's though to be one of the major hindrances to space-born life developing - we on Earth have the atmosphere and magnetosphere to protect us, while comets do not. Nonetheless, if organic molecules formed in a nebula, that could well protect them from destruction by nearby stars, much like our atmosphere.

Radiation is only a major player when you're near to a powerful source, such as a star. If you're not, then you're more or less fine. Nebulae are large, far larger than the 'danger zone' of a star.

What is the density of gases in an area of a nebula where it is far away from a new star? Either the chance of the formation of an organic molecule is slim, or the chance of the preservation of the organic molecule is slim. If we released a CH4 molecule into the space between earth and moon, how long could it survive? My guess is about ... a month?

I think organic molecules might even have hard time to be preserved in the conditions of primordial earth. Needless to say anywhere else in the space (nebula).
 
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RickG

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We know there are organic molecules embedded in cold space objects. However, I can't figure out where do they come from.

Any help from folks in this forum?

An introductory course in organic chemistry perhaps. Actually, organic molecules are quite common. Pubchem lists over 18 million organic compounds. Essentially anything containing carbon is considered organic with a few exceptions such as carbonates, cyanides, carbide, oxides of carbon, etc.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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What is the density of gases in an area of a nebula where it is far away from a new star?
How long is a piece of string? Nebulae vary in density, though generally they're less dense near stars due to gravity and the solar wind.

Either the chance of the formation of an organic molecule is slim, or the chance of the preservation of the organic molecule is slim. If we released a CH4 molecule into the space between earth and moon, how long could it survive? My guess is about ... a month?
Ionising radiation would make short work of it, sure, but that's because it would be relatively close to the Earth, the Moon, and the Sun, and wouldn't be shielded from radiation by a large quantity of gas. Besides, it's not universally true that radiation always denatures organic molecules into their constituent atoms - usually it'll be basal atoms, such as methane or ammonia. And even then, cosmic rays can help synthesise more complex molecules by providing that extra influx of energy.

I think organic molecules might even have hard time to be preserved in the conditions of primordial earth. Needless to say anywhere else in the space (nebula).
Why would they have a hard time being preserved in primordial Earth?
 
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