Origin of Belief

[OneBigBow]

If you have religion, I would like you to think about how you were raised, think about when you first learned about your religion, think about every Pastor, Teacher, Doctor, Family member, Friend etc. that professed a religious belief that was the same as your own, think of every person who has given you advice regarding your religion, including the people on this forum, then ask yourself... how on earth do they know?

Why ask this? Well, one has to have learned about one’s religion from somewhere, if you were born in an empty room, with no education, no outside contact, you could not be, for example, a Christian, you would have no knowledge of who Jesus was, what the Bible is and so forth.

Although with some knowledge and quizzical thinking, you might imagine a God; you may think to yourself, “How did this room come to be?” or “Someone or something must have put me here for a reason”.
But the likelihood of imagining Christianity’s origins and its present configuration is unlikely to say the least.

So we have people all over the world picking their religious affiliation though which method? Well we know that it is mostly inherited from their parents, some read and like the story, some find solace in believing that particular doctrine and there are many other reasons people think religion is necessary.

But how do you choose? There's a plethora of different religions, numerous Gods that people believe in, most have fantastical beginnings in times when evidence was not studied as thoroughly as it is today, some have creation elements, some are left open to your own imagination, but seriously thinking about the origins of one’s religion, how can you be sure that it is true?

 

[lesliedellow]

but seriously thinking about the origins of one’s religion, how can you be sure that it is true?

I don't know that all the evidence pointing to the existence of somebody called Julius Caesar wasn't the work of one or more forgers, but I would need to be into conspiracy theories big time in order to actually believe that.

 

[ViaCrucis]

...how can you be sure that it is true?

This seemed like the fundamental question being asked, this is why I snipped it so as to address it directly.

My answer: Certainty isn't something that is afforded people of faith, rather it is a leap, a lunge, toward faith. It is a leap into the unknown, the uncertain. As such it's hardly safe nor certain. It is quite dangerous, for at the end of one's days either her or his faith will have been found well planted, or else not. Perhaps there is only the empty abyss of nothing at the end of the plunge, though perhaps not.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[OneBigBow]

I don't know that all the evidence pointing to the existence of somebody called Julius Caesar wasn't the work of one or more forgers, but I would need to be into conspiracy theories big time in order to actually believe that.

I understand your point, but we have more evidence that Julius Caesar existed, than that Jesus was the Son of God. You are suggesting that believing that Julius Caesar existed is the same as believing in supernatural occurrences and to me these don't quite amount to the same thing.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you have religion, I would like you to think about how you were raised, think about when you first learned about your religion, think about every Pastor, Teacher, Doctor, Family member, Friend etc. that professed a religious belief that was the same as your own, think of every person who has given you advice regarding your religion, including the people on this forum, then ask yourself... how on earth do they know?

Why ask this? Well, one has to have learned about one’s religion from somewhere, if you were born in an empty room, with no education, no outside contact, you could not be, for example, a Christian, you would have no knowledge of who Jesus was, what the Bible is and so forth.

Although with some knowledge and quizzical thinking, you might imagine a God; you may think to yourself, “How did this room come to be?” or “Someone or something must have put me here for a reason”.
But the likelihood of imagining Christianity’s origins and its present configuration is unlikely to say the least.

So we have people all over the world picking their religious affiliation though which method? Well we know that it is mostly inherited from their parents, some read and like the story, some find solace in believing that particular doctrine and there are many other reasons people think religion is necessary.

But how do you choose? There's a plethora of different religions, numerous Gods that people believe in, most have fantastical beginnings in times when evidence was not studied as thoroughly as it is today, some have creation elements, some are left open to your own imagination, but seriously thinking about the origins of one’s religion, how can you be sure that it is true?

Here's how I chose Christianity, in a nutshell. I was 17 and living in a family that had a mentally ill mother. Both my father and mother in a "very general" way believed in God. However, Christianity was not a central focus of our family, nor did we ever speak of faith, or the Bible, although we did make very occasional trips to a liberal and low-key Presbyterian church.

At 17, I became cognizant that I would someday truly die. Death as a concept changed in my mind from being a potentiality which merely affected 'other' people to a matter of fact that applied concretely to me as well. I found myself in an emotional conundrum with not much place to turn for answers. My parents literally had never read, nor did they know, anything about the Bible. So, I took it upon myself to find an answer.

Since I had a very hazy view of what God was, let alone any specifics about the Bible, I decided to research ALL of the major religions. I did.

Truthfully, my first inklings of faith were made by aesthetic appeal--Christianity looked, felt, and emotionally 'tasted' much better to me than the other options---blue people and elephant headed gods especially turned me off.

Additionally, I began to read the Bible beginning with Genesis. It was at this point that I quickly had to find some additional answers because evolution was already taken for granted in my family. [My dad and I had watched most of the Carl Sagan 'Cosmos' series on PBS a few years before this.] And I have wrestled with it ever since.

However, despite the fact that I cannot today say with logical, scientific, deductive certainty that Christianity is true, I also understand the philosophical weaknesses inherent in the alternatives...especially now that I have a Bachelor's degree in Philosophy.

Anyway, as far as any explantion of the universe is concerned, I believe that Christianity is, in simple terms, the best answer.

 

[OneBigBow]

Here's how I chose Christianity, in a nutshell. I was 17 and living in a family that had a mentally ill mother. Both my father and mother in a "very general" way believed in God. However, Christianity was not a central focus of our family, nor did we ever speak of faith, or the Bible, although we did make very occasional trips to a liberal and low-key Presbyterian church.

At 17, I became cognizant that I would someday truly die. Death as a concept changed in my mind from being a potentiality which merely affected 'other' people to a matter of fact that applied concretely to me as well. I found myself in an emotional conundrum with not much place to turn for answers. My parents literally had never read, nor did they know, anything about the Bible. So, I took it upon myself to find an answer.

Since I had a very hazy view of what God was, let alone any specifics about the Bible, I decided to research ALL of the major religions. I did.

Truthfully, my first inklings of faith were made by aesthetic appeal--Christianity looked, felt, and emotionally 'tasted' much better to me than the other options---blue people and elephant headed gods especially turned me off.

Additionally, I began to read the Bible beginning with Genesis. It was at this point that I quickly had to find some additional answers because evolution was already taken for granted in my family. [My dad and I had watched most of the Carl Sagan 'Cosmos' series on PBS a few years before this.] And I have wrestled with it ever since.

However, despite the fact that I cannot today say with logical, scientific, deductive certainty that Christianity is true, I also understand the philosophical weaknesses inherent in the alternatives...especially now that I have a Bachelor's degree in Philosophy.

Anyway, as far as any explantion of the universe is concerned, I believe that Christianity is, in simple terms, the best answer.

Allow me to thank you; firstly for reading and understanding the questions within my first post, and secondly for taking the time to answer in such a well thought out manner and I applaud the honesty in what you have written.

From your post, I assume would you concede that Christianity is purely a subjective taste? That someone brought up slightly differently could and often do choose different religions and stick to them with such unwavering certainty purely on how it makes them feel, rather than any inherent study of the available evidence or lack there of.

It is this I do not understand, when you decided to pick a religion, why did you not look at them all, why pick only the biggest religions to peruse? Did you not look into Tenrikyo or Jainism? I assume not.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Allow me to thank you; firstly for reading and understanding the questions within my first post, and secondly for taking the time to answer in such a well thought out manner and I applaud the honesty in what you have written.

Your welcome. [Although, I will admit it was a rush job, and for that I apologize.]

From your post, I assume would you concede that Christianity is purely a subjective taste?

Actually, no, I would not concede that Christianity’s attraction, to me anyway, is now a “purely,” if we mean this in the sense of ‘solely’ or ‘only,’ subjective taste. Rather I would say that I began with a somewhat aesthetic attraction to Christianity based on the narratives I found in the New Testament, but that has matured over the years into a belief dynamic that includes recognition that Christianity has some evidence to consider, although it is admittedly not comprehensive evidence that can lead an inquirer to some so-called ‘proof’ (which is very hard to come by anyway in fields other than mathematics and logic.)

That someone brought up slightly differently could and often do choose different religions…

While I’m sure that persons who graft themselves to the religion of their culture represent a dominant, or at least typical, statistic, there are very often those who may be found in each culture who reject their cultural faith for the simple fact that it “doesn’t make sense to them.”

…and stick to them with such unwavering certainty purely on how it makes them feel, rather than any inherent study of the available evidence or lack there of.

Yes, many will go through life without questioning their beliefs, due to the fact that other evidences, theories, or perceptions were simply not available, as well as for the reason that a person may have an affinity for the beliefs of their parents for no other reason than that those beliefs are their parents. I however am one who recursively questions, regardless.

It is this I do not understand, when you decided to pick a religion, why did you not look at them all, why pick only the biggest religions to peruse? Did you not look into Tenrikyo or Jainism? I assume not.

At the time of my initial interests in religion at age 17, I only had basic awareness of the major religions, and since I was ignorant, as well as was my family, of other religions, I wouldn’t have known to peruse sources for “the small ones.” Jainism I found and I quickly I lumped it with Hinduism and Buddhism. Tenrikyo was simply not in the sources I had available [although I thank you for that reference…I have one more now to add to my studies and vocabulary.]
Do you think I am in error here? Please inform me, and I’ll be happy to discuss it.

 

[GenetoJean]

Yes, I was raised in a Christian family. My parents went 3 times a week until I was around middle school age then we stopped going. I never completely stopped believeing but became pretty agnostic for awhile. Since I started going to church again and even got Baptised again because I didnt truly understand the first time.

I believe because I have faith. No I have no proof. The first step of my coming out of agnosticism (is that a word?) was thinking about the Big Bang theory and unguided evolution. I just cant believe that. So something had to do it. I just "feel" God is the answer to this. I believe other religions have their positive points but I just dont believe that the "mysticism" behind them are true. I have no proof, it is all about what I believe in my heart.

 

[OneBigBow]

At the time of my initial interests in religion at age 17, I only had basic awareness of the major religions, and since I was ignorant, as well as was my family, of other religions, I wouldn’t have known to peruse sources for “the small ones.” Jainism I found and I quickly I lumped it with Hinduism and Buddhism. Tenrikyo was simply not in the sources I had available [although I thank you for that reference…I have one more now to add to my studies and vocabulary.]
Do you think I am in error here? Please inform me, and I’ll be happy to discuss it.

No I do not believe you are in error, I think it is a ridiculous task to know each religion inside and out, but as an Atheist I see most religions the same way, most have cultural and social advantages and many make scientific claims they cannot even hope to backup with actual evidence, but for the main part they are founded on unsubstantiated stories and faith and my goal was to understand why people choose one faith over another and I am starting to get a good picture.

What I would like to know though, is, looking back through time, to the people who wrote the Bible, why are you (open to anyone reading this thread) inclined to believe the writers of that book over say the writers of The Guru Granth Sahib, or any other supposedly 'Holy' texts?

I could find much more peaceful texts than the Bible if I was looking for a religion, maybe not one as well written, but certainly more peaceful and respectful to people of other faiths. Yet these are so often dismissed by people who are new to religion and not indoctrinated from an early age.

Yes, I was raised in a Christian family. My parents went 3 times a week until I was around middle school age then we stopped going. I never completely stopped believeing but became pretty agnostic for awhile. Since I started going to church again and even got Baptised again because I didnt truly understand the first time.

I believe because I have faith. No I have no proof. The first step of my coming out of agnosticism (is that a word?) was thinking about the Big Bang theory and unguided evolution. I just cant believe that. So something had to do it. I just "feel" God is the answer to this. I believe other religions have their positive points but I just dont believe that the "mysticism" behind them are true. I have no proof, it is all about what I believe in my heart.

Thanks for joining the thread, and thanks for your story.
You see, I believe that inclination towards Christianity and your dismissal of other faith's "mysticism" was part of your upbringing, rather than any inherent truth within Christianity, which is why I find it difficult to understand why one of any religious faith would believe it with such certainty. You say you feel God is the answer, but it is perfectly possible to believe in God and not be religious which is basically what Deism is, so if you felt the need for God why did you not go this route rather than picking a religion which claims not only that God exists, but to know what God wants?

I have no proof, it is all about what I believe in my heart.

Without trying to be rude, it has nothing to do with what you believe in your heart. If you had never heard of Christianity, your "heart" (brain) wouldn't magically invent Christianity and know that it is true, you have to have learned this from someone, you must have heard of Christianity and known that others think it is true too, and in that learning of Christianity it resonated with you, but it could just as well have been Jainism or Scientology that resonated. Now you have a religion, when you look at others you will consciously or subconsciously compare them to your own and they will always pale in comparison.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No I do not believe you are in error, I think it is a ridiculous task to know each religion inside and out, but as an Atheist I see most religions the same way, most have cultural and social advantages and many make scientific claims they cannot even hope to backup with actual evidence, but for the main part they are founded on unsubstantiated stories and faith and my goal was to understand why people choose one faith over another and I am starting to get a good picture.

What I would like to know though, is, looking back through time, to the people who wrote the Bible, why are you (open to anyone reading this thread) inclined to believe the writers of that book over say the writers of The Guru Granth Sahib, or any other supposedly 'Holy' texts?

Why believe the Biblical writers over those of other sacred texts? Good question! For me, and from the results of my studies, being that I have taken classes on the World's other relgions, I take the Bible as more historically cogent. It is written more in the form of history (and in some respects may reflect actual history.) If we look at the major sacred texts of the other religions, they are not described and narrated withing historical frameworks, rather they are collections of "wise sayings" (i.e. the Upanishads, the Qu'ran, Tao Te Ching, Dhammapada, etc.) In simple form, that is my first reason.

The second reason is that I know that the Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism began as non-deified philosophers. It was a few hundred years before these religions began to make their sages into divinities. Christianity seems to have perceived Jesus as divine very early on in the movement.

The third reason is that I subscrible to the Coherency Theory of truth (and as it can be applied withing the field of the philosophy of history), and I perceive that Christianity presents a more coherent view of reality that the other religions. Atheism of course is the only other alternative I would actually consider, but...I have philosphical reservations about it.

What do you think a religion would HAVE to show to be what we might think as 'real'? I appreciate your thoughts.

I could find much more peaceful texts than the Bible if I was looking for a religion, maybe not one as well written, but certainly more peaceful and respectful to people of other faiths. Yet these are so often dismissed by people who are new to religion and not indoctrinated from an early age.

I've read the entire Bible cover to cover, and the violence is something I find coherent. This is because I have my reservations about Enlightenment thinking and its positivistic tendencies.

 

[GenetoJean]

Thanks for joining the thread, and thanks for your story.
You see, I believe that inclination towards Christianity and your dismissal of other faith's "mysticism" was part of your upbringing, rather than any inherent truth within Christianity, which is why I find it difficult to understand why one of any religious faith would believe it with such certainty. You say you feel God is the answer, but it is perfectly possible to believe in God and not be religious which is basically what Deism is, so if you felt the need for God why did you not go this route rather than picking a religion which claims not only that God exists, but to know what God wants?

I choose to go the denomination route because I like the fellowship. I believe the Bible was inspired by God so we do know what he wants. Again this goes back to believint this in my heart.

Without trying to be rude, it has nothing to do with what you believe in your heart. If you had never heard of Christianity, your "heart" (brain) wouldn't magically invent Christianity and know that it is true, you have to have learned this from someone, you must have heard of Christianity and known that others think it is true too, and in that learning of Christianity it resonated with you, but it could just as well have been Jainism or Scientology that resonated. Now you have a religion, when you look at others you will consciously or subconsciously compare them to your own and they will always pale in comparison.

No it wouldnt. Either I would live without knowing God or God would reveal himself to me. If it is the former then I think I would have a chance after dieing to accept Jesus Christ. If it is the latter I would know about it as I live. I have some contriverial beliefs I know; I believe some people of other religions and some atheists will get a chance to get in Heaven. I believe they will have that chance after they die.

 

[motherprayer]

If you have religion, I would like you to think about how you were raised, think about when you first learned about your religion, think about every Pastor, Teacher, Doctor, Family member, Friend etc. that professed a religious belief that was the same as your own, think of every person who has given you advice regarding your religion, including the people on this forum, then ask yourself... how on earth do they know?

Why ask this? Well, one has to have learned about one's religion from somewhere, if you were born in an empty room, with no education, no outside contact, you could not be, for example, a Christian, you would have no knowledge of who Jesus was, what the Bible is and so forth.

Although with some knowledge and quizzical thinking, you might imagine a God; you may think to yourself, "How did this room come to be?" or "Someone or something must have put me here for a reason".
But the likelihood of imagining Christianity's origins and its present configuration is unlikely to say the least.

So we have people all over the world picking their religious affiliation though which method? Well we know that it is mostly inherited from their parents, some read and like the story, some find solace in believing that particular doctrine and there are many other reasons people think religion is necessary.

But how do you choose? There's a plethora of different religions, numerous Gods that people believe in, most have fantastical beginnings in times when evidence was not studied as thoroughly as it is today, some have creation elements, some are left open to your own imagination, but seriously thinking about the origins of one's religion, how can you be sure that it is true?

Raised Catholic, but that never made sense. Ran around like a crazy girl for awhile, and then went to a church where, at my first service, I was overcome by the spirit. Been a believer ever since, and the only authority I take is from the Bible.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But how do you choose?

We don't choose, God chooses us and draws us to Jesus and into fellowship with others that have been called. It is true that some 'choose' to 'join' the Christian faith, but if God hasn't chosen them they are just warming a seat for someone else. That is why so many play 'musical churches'. They aren't comfortable with their 'choice' because somehow they realize they don't really belong there.

God drew me to Jesus when I was about 4 years old, but I didn't really begin my walk until I was in my 30's. Been stumbling along ever since.

 

[OneBigBow]

Raised Catholic, but that never made sense. Ran around like a crazy girl for awhile, and then went to a church where, at my first service, I was overcome by the spirit. Been a believer ever since, and the only authority I take is from the Bible.

Thank you for your reply, I would like to know how you knew the experience you had was from the Judeo-Christain God/Holy Spirit and not something natural occurring within yourself and also like I have asked the others, why you take the Bible as 'authority' and presumably dismiss other 'Holy' texts?

We don't choose, God chooses us and draws us to Jesus and into fellowship with others that have been called. It is true that some 'choose' to 'join' the Christian faith, but if God hasn't chosen them they are just warming a seat for someone else. That is why so many play 'musical churches'. They aren't comfortable with their 'choice' because somehow they realize they don't really belong there.

God drew me to Jesus when I was about 4 years old, but I didn't really begin my walk until I was in my 30's. Been stumbling along ever since.

So has God given up on people from the Muslim countries or does he only want certain nationalities? I don't mean to be facetious but people choose God and they choose Christianity, again if one was born in a place untouched by civilisation as we know it, how would they manage to get to the 'right' religion? They wouldn't, we choose Christianity or any other religion after we learn about it from others, then we pick one which feels right to us based on other factors other than the actual evidence available.

Apart from the mavericks who make up their own religion of course.

 

[motherprayer]

Thank you for your reply, I would like to know how you knew the experience you had was from the Judeo-Christain God/Holy Spirit and not something natural occurring within yourself and also like I have asked the others, why you take the Bible as 'authority' and presumably dismiss other 'Holy' texts?

Well, I knew because He revealed Himself to me. What happened was outside of my control, and also the most amazing thing in my life. I wish I could explain it better

The reason I take the Bible as authority is because it makes sense to me. I looked at the instruction in it, and it just makes sense. The ten commands make sense, and the instruction in the NT about how to love makes sense.

For me, after that one experience, I've had quite a few more, and never has any "spiritual" experience I've had given me cause to doubt that God is real, that He is love, and that He will never leave my side. It is wonderful

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So has God given up on people from the Muslim countries or does he only want certain nationalities? I don't mean to be facetious but people choose God and they choose Christianity, again if one was born in a place untouched by civilisation as we know it, how would they manage to get to the 'right' religion? They wouldn't, we choose Christianity or any other religion after we learn about it from others, then we pick one which feels right to us based on other factors other than the actual evidence available.

There are converts to Christianity from all the worlds religions. Moreso than converts from Christianity to theirs. Everyone will have a chance to get it right during the millenial rule of Christ. God is calling a special group now, the rest later. God 'winks' at the 'times of ignorance' of these other religions.

 

[dysert]

I grew up in a Christian home, went to church twice a week, read the Bible, etc. But then there came a time when I knew I'd have to decide for myself whether it was all true. So I read the Bible some more, with a bit more analytical view. The more I read, the more I saw fulfilled prophecy, and the less I saw of contradiction or error. I figured that the odds of such a thing being developed purely by the 40-some authors over a period of 1500 years were quite small. So either there was a supernatural Being superintending the development of this document, and/or there was a supernatural Being smart enough and powerful enough to ensure that the prophesied stuff actually happened. That same book, then, told me about this supernatural Being, and I came to accept the God of the Bible as revealed therein.

I haven't investigated other "sacred" texts because I understand that they contradict the Bible, and since I know the Bible is true, why bother.

With all that said, I now tend to believe that God is the One who called me, and that it really wasn't me finding Him after all.

 

[motherprayer]

With all that said, I now tend to believe that God is the One who called me, and that it really wasn't me finding Him after all.

Me too! Bless you!

 

[bling]

If you have religion, I would like you to think about how you were raised, think about when you first learned about your religion, think about every Pastor, Teacher, Doctor, Family member, Friend etc. that professed a religious belief that was the same as your own, think of every person who has given you advice regarding your religion, including the people on this forum, then ask yourself... how on earth do they know?

Why ask this? Well, one has to have learned about one’s religion from somewhere, if you were born in an empty room, with no education, no outside contact, you could not be, for example, a Christian, you would have no knowledge of who Jesus was, what the Bible is and so forth.

Although with some knowledge and quizzical thinking, you might imagine a God; you may think to yourself, “How did this room come to be?” or “Someone or something must have put me here for a reason”.
But the likelihood of imagining Christianity’s origins and its present configuration is unlikely to say the least.

So we have people all over the world picking their religious affiliation though which method? Well we know that it is mostly inherited from their parents, some read and like the story, some find solace in believing that particular doctrine and there are many other reasons people think religion is necessary.

But how do you choose? There's a plethora of different religions, numerous Gods that people believe in, most have fantastical beginnings in times when evidence was not studied as thoroughly as it is today, some have creation elements, some are left open to your own imagination, but seriously thinking about the origins of one’s religion, how can you be sure that it is true?

OK, you do not just seem to be trolling.

We are not trying to be sold on a religion but Jesus and Jesus is God in the flesh and God is Love. It is that Love = Godly type Love that we are trying to accept. There are people all over the world that have never heard of Jesus, but all mature adults have done stuff that has hurt others and they are burdened in their conscience by these past transgressions. They will seek relief from this burden in all kinds of ways, but the only true solution comes from accepting the forgiveness from a benevolent Creator. God will readily forgive anyone that seeks His help and forgiveness is salvation.

God is not trying to get us to do something (like worship Him in some certain way), but God is trying to give us the greatest most powerful gift in all universes since it is the force that compels God to do all He does (Love). Since God cannot force this Love on us (against our wells) and God cannot create this Love in us (robotic type love), this Love has to be humbly accepted as a free undeserving gift (Charity).

Most people just do not want to accept pure charity or do they want to have unselfish Love since they like selfish type love.

 

[OneBigBow]

Why believe the Biblical writers over those of other sacred texts? Good question! For me, and from the results of my studies, being that I have taken classes on the World's other relgions, I take the Bible as more historically cogent. It is written more in the form of history (and in some respects may reflect actual history.) If we look at the major sacred texts of the other religions, they are not described and narrated withing historical frameworks, rather they are collections of "wise sayings" (i.e. the Upanishads, the Qu'ran, Tao Te Ching, Dhammapada, etc.) In simple form, that is my first reason.

The second reason is that I know that the Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism began as non-deified philosophers. It was a few hundred years before these religions began to make their sages into divinities. Christianity seems to have perceived Jesus as divine very early on in the movement.

The third reason is that I subscrible to the Coherency Theory of truth (and as it can be applied withing the field of the philosophy of history), and I perceive that Christianity presents a more coherent view of reality that the other religions. Atheism of course is the only other alternative I would actually consider, but...I have philosphical reservations about it.

What do you think a religion would HAVE to show to be what we might think as 'real'? I appreciate your thoughts.

Excellent post and I would love to hear the philosophical reservations you have in regard to Atheism.

Concerning your question at the end about what it would take for me to consider a religion to be ‘real’.
That is an incredibly tough question, to make it easier let's just take Christianity as our example, first the book; if I am to believe this is divinely inspired or even the word of God Himself, then this book would have to be infinitely more knowledgeable than it currently is, let's not forget that your God is all powerful, all knowing and the book he sends to us to last at least 2000 years is full of bad mathematics, rules on keeping slaves, degradation of women, offers primitive knowledge on science, none on bacteria, DNA, biology etc., if taken literally then the world was created 4 thousand years after humans had invented farming, plus considering how much science plays a part in our lives now, I would expect accurate, timeless sciences that not only could have been figured out then but also play a part in our lives today. God’s mind is supposedly vast and infinitely wise, yet it is plainly obvious that this book could have been written by the people of that time. Apart from a few moral concepts, which, by the way could be found in writings much older than the Bible, there is nothing that comes close to being divine under your own religion’s description of ‘God’.

Secondly, if God is love, then it’s not hard to see that He hasn’t quite reached many places on earth, to quote Sam Harris (very, very loosely), every year, 9 million children between the ages 0 and 5 die, mostly because of malnutrition, some disease, some accidents, lack of water, sanitation, or simply through abuse. 9 million, imagine the Indian Ocean Tsunami in 2004 that killed a quarter of a million people, now imagine one of those every ten days, killing only children under 5, which is about 17 children per minute, more and more as I write this are dying in terror and agony. Now think of their parents, most of whom believe in your God, praying, begging for their child to be saved, their child who knows nothing of Christianity, who probably doesn’t even understand the concept of a God or of sin had been born into a world of absolute misery and hopelessness and their removal from this world will cause untold misery and the same feeling of hopelessness for their parents, who probably cannot even begin to imagine why they are being punished. Now I know what most people will say, this is part of Gods plan, or God works in mysterious ways, but I’m sorry, God can tell us that he doesn’t want gays to marry and not to mix two different fabrics in clothing, but he cannot tell us why he does the important things?

The more I look at the world, not just where I live but the whole world and indeed the universe, then I see an absence of God.

There are converts to Christianity from all the worlds religions. Moreso than converts from Christianity to theirs. Everyone will have a chance to get it right during the millenial rule of Christ. God is calling a special group now, the rest later. God 'winks' at the 'times of ignorance' of these other religions.

You know this how? Everywhere I look on this forum people claim to know the mind of God and do not back this up with evidence. If you know the mind of God can you let me into a few more secrets that you yourself could not have come up with?

OK, you do not just seem to be trolling.

We are not trying to be sold on a religion but Jesus and Jesus is God in the flesh and God is Love. It is that Love = Godly type Love that we are trying to accept. There are people all over the world that have never heard of Jesus, but all mature adults have done stuff that has hurt others and they are burdened in their conscience by these past transgressions. They will seek relief from this burden in all kinds of ways, but the only true solution comes from accepting the forgiveness from a benevolent Creator. God will readily forgive anyone that seeks His help and forgiveness is salvation.

God is not trying to get us to do something (like worship Him in some certain way), but God is trying to give us the greatest most powerful gift in all universes since it is the force that compels God to do all He does (Love). Since God cannot force this Love on us (against our wells) and God cannot create this Love in us (robotic type love), this Love has to be humbly accepted as a free undeserving gift (Charity).

Most people just do not want to accept pure charity or do they want to have unselfish Love since they like selfish type love.

Whilst I would like to thank you for joining in the thread, and clearing me of trolling, I am afraid I cannot afford you the same privilege, as your grammar and spelling make this hard to read and you offer only conjecture. My questions are simple and I would like to know why people choose their religion, especially when there is a large portion of people who claim with certainty that their religion is 'true' and telling me “Jesus is God in the flesh and God is Love “ is not an answer as most religions claim some form of divinity not just yours.