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Oriental Orthodox Chotki?

Discussion in 'The Voice In The Desert - Oriental Orthodox' started by anna ~ grace, Aug 17, 2021.

  1. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    Do the Oriental Orthodox use the equivalent of a Rosary or Chotki? If so, which prayers are said on it? Thank you, Sir!
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
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  2. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Yes. I haven't personally seen it, but I know it is there from reading and Googling.


    Prayer rope - Wikipedia.

    Prayer ropes are part of the practice of Eastern-Catholic and of Eastern Orthodox monks and nuns[1] and are employed by monastics (and sometimes by others) to count the number of times one has prayed the Jesus Prayer or, occasionally, other prayers. The typical prayer rope has thirty three knots, representing the thirty three years of Christ's life.[2] Among the Oriental Orthodoxy, it is used in the Coptic, Ethiopian, and Eritrean Orthodox Churches, where it is known by its Coptic or Ge'ez name.



    Coptic Rosary | Etsy


    But I guess that little article explains why I haven't seen, it is more a monastic thing, and haven't visited a monastery.
     
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  3. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    The prayer ropes I'm familiar with have 41 knots are are used to count the number of times that one says Kyrie eleison.
     
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  4. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    Thank you, both of you. Have either of you ever used one, or do you own one?

    Sorry for making an assumption. Thank you, both of you, for answering.
     
  5. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I honestly can't remember if I saw any at St. Shenouda monastery in NY when I was there, but I think that has more to do with the fact that that was 7 years ago already and I was there to do fieldwork for my master's thesis.

    I can definitely see the value of having one to pray, e.g., the 41 Kyrie Eleisons, though I feel like the way we pray those corporally in the Coptic Orthodox Church has its own little rhythm that makes it easy enough to remember without one. Also, the 'care package' I received from a Coptic friend before going to my first liturgy in NM had an Agpeya and a hand cross, no prayer rope, so I think I just got used to that.

    Anyway, here's a nice little documentary on Waldebba monastery in Ethiopia (one of the oldest Ethiopian monasteries in existence, est. 490 AD) where you can see an old monk praying using a mekutaria/chotki at ~1:50:

     
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  6. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    Thanks, Dzheremi. What prayers are prayed on the mekutaria? Is it only Kyrie Eleisons?
     
  7. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Yes & yes.
     
  8. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I don't really know to be honest, since I don't have one. The Wiki page that Pavel linked says it can be used to mark other prayers like the Lord's Prayer or the Magnificat, but I don't know why that would be, since those are pretty well distributed over the liturgical hour, as opposed to clustering 41 times in any one spot. Perhaps the monastic practice is different (I didn't go barging into Br. Antonious' cell during his private prayer time to see), but when we pray the Agpeya together as part of the morning raising of the incense or any other service, these things are clearly outlined, so I don't know how you'd need to keep track of where the Magnificat or the Lord's Prayer are.

    @Pavel Mosko , do you have any insight on this? Have you ever had to keep count of any other prayer? I feel like I haven't. Usually if I'm paying attention to details like this it'll be about what language the deacon is giving his exhortation in so that I can hopefully respond in the right language. :)
     
  9. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Well... about the closest thing to it. I had this kind of black beaded Rosary crucifix cross hanging from car, rear view mirror for years. I basically took over driving my ex-wife's car as my car years back. But when we were together, she bought it at one of these Coptic church after church sales etc. Kind of like a book sale, or bake sale, only with things like icons, devotional things, books, pamphlets etc.

    Never got into using it devotionally. Pretty much the thing that is front and center as far as Coptic Spirituality is praying the Agpeya from a pocket prayer book or here.

    Agpeya: Coptic Book of Hours (www.agpeya.org)


    And secondly doing the readings of the day from the Lectionary.

    Readings for Tue, August 17th - Mesra 11 - Coptic Lectionary - CopticChurch.net


    I will say that Copts over the years have appropriated stuff from the Eastern Orthodox and Latin Catholics. Coptic Iconography for some reason died out for a few centuries, not sure why? Maybe persecution. But Copts often appropriated Christian art from other parts of the World. And you can see some Roman Catholic art hanging around the parish fellowship hall, church offices etc. besides all the other more traditional icons. But I imagine there are some Copts that use them, especially some that came from a Coptic Catholic family and married into Orthodoxy especially.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
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  10. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Never did. But as I mentioned above, I had this black beaded Rosary crucifix necklace hanging from my car rear mirror for years. And I remember seeing some other folks do that. And those things were sometimes sold at the after Church sales along with some other stuff like icons, books and pamphlets etc. so I suspect some one is using and probably more than just decorating your car but actually using them for their original purpose.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
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  11. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    I remember hearing that the Coptic monks often pray “Make haste, O God, to deliver me! Make haste to help me, O Lord!”

    Is this true? Is this prayed separately, or is considered a variation of Kyrie Eleison?
     
  12. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    That's the first verse of Psalm 70, isn't it?

    Praying the Psalms is what is traditional in Egyptian Christianity, as mentioned in early sources like John Cassian's Institutes. It is still that way today, as the Agpeya is primarily drawn from the Psalms. This practice of repeating the Psalms occupies a place in Egyptian Christianity that is perhaps roughly analogous to the place of the Jesus Prayer in the Eastern Chalcedonian churches, though admittedly I don't know if it is systematized for us to the degree that the Chalcedonians formalized the saying of the Jesus Prayer.
     
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  13. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    I think so. I think I remember hearing that this was used by Coptic monks as a prayer similar to how the Eastern Orthodox might use the Jesus Prayer, but I’m not sure.
     
  14. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Where did you get it? I collect rosaries, prayer ropes and lestovkas; I even have a genuine leather lestovka arranged for the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov. My favorite prayer ropes are Old Believer lestovkas, because one can, in addition to the standard Old Believer prayers, do a variety of custom prayer rules by using different sections of the lestovka concurrently, saying one prayer when one hand touches a small cylinder, and on a larger cylinder, a different prayer, and using the other hand for multiplication, and the section dividers to switch from one prayer to another. For example, to pray
    kyrie eleison, the Lord’s prayer, the Jesus Prayer, the the Hail Mary and the Prayer of St Ephraim in a series, four times, is extremely easy. One can also do multiplication using the cross of knots on the end of a chotki, but not as many.

    I do not have, but want, an Anglican Rosary, and apparently the Coptic prayer rope, which I have seen, but I thought it was a standard Greek prayer rope.
     
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  15. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    Hey, so, I found this Catholic devotion, which reminded me of the OO devotion I may have been thinking of;

    Chaplet of the Holy Name

    Does anything like this seem familiar?
     
  16. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    It reminds me of the repeated saying of the prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian in the Russian Old Rite Orthodox and Old Believer churches, on their lestovka.
     
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