Organic Church Growth

[bling]

1. Was organic type growth what Jesus was presenting while here on earth?

2. Do you see organic type growth happening in the first century churches and where in scripture would you find evidence to support your answer?

3. Is organic growth even an objective of churches today and if so where is it happening?

4. I’m seeing “Christianity” in the West withering more than growing, so would this suggest we are not doing it right and if so what are we doing wrong?

5. How do you understand organic “church” growth and how does it compare to the way we have grown in the past and how we could grow in the future?

6. Does having seminaries even promote organic growth? Do they even teach it?

7. What would have to change to initiate organic Church growth?

8. Is your church or denomination doing something “different” than other churches and denominations and if so what are you trying?

 

[Cappadocious]

Can you define "organic church growth" for us, as well as some contrasting forms of church growth?

 

[Gnarwhal]

Can you define "organic church growth" for us, as well as some contrasting forms of church growth?

Good questions, the phrase could probable be interpreted at least a couple of different ways.

 

[bling]

Can you define "organic church growth" for us, as well as some contrasting forms of church growth?

OK, this is my understanding;
The local congregation leaders (every leader) “selects” a small group (less than 12) to mentor (disciple/teach/train/council/spend time with) to be like they are (which is like Christ, since it is really Christ living through them). This is so the selected group of individuals can split off and form another church plant somewhere and do the same there.

The contrast to the other methods of “church growth”, is found in the system and method for expanding the number of churches. The main method now seems to be through large expensive organizations. A person is trained at great expense at some university of theology to really teach to the same type of people that are supporting the University. These graduates in missions have to raise huge amounts of support or get money from some huge organization. They are really consciously or unconsciously obligated and wanting to please those supporting them for what they do and not so much trying to service those in the mission field other than what their support sees. For these missionaries to develop local preachers (like they are) may actually take away from the support of the missionary since being supported from a rich congregation is the only system they know.

The system is limited in growth to the university graduates that burn out in the mission field after the three years of support runs out.

 

[Gnarwhal]

The thing is, those 'organic' groups as you call them are liable to develop faulty theology. This sounds a lot like the cell group concept, something that in practice is a big bust from what I've seen. The one church where I live who practices that is well known for a being a cult.

So, if you have such a structure where it essentially raises up it's own leaders with no proper education (not just religious education, but other disciplines as well) this disposes of intellectual and theological accountability. Yes, universities, divinity schools and theological seminaries can be expensive, but the benefits outweigh the cost.

The institution is accredited, you can rely on the information being properly vetted. No cracked theories, theologies, beliefs or faux-educational experiences will be pitched to the students. I'm sure there's a handful of people on here who would disagree, but that just further proves my point if you ask me.

Discipleship is excellent, I'm not criticizing that idea at all. I think it's not only fitting but necessary that elders in a church community take newer believers under their wing and walk along side them so that the newer believers can grasp an understanding of what a deeper spiritual life looks like.

That's different then grooming people to go off and start a church plant. If you try to mix the two ideas it can be disastrous spiritually for the people trying to start the church plant and any prospective members of that church plant.

 

[from scratch]

1. Was organic type growth what Jesus was presenting while here on earth?

2. Do you see organic type growth happening in the first century churches and where in scripture would you find evidence to support your answer?

3. Is organic growth even an objective of churches today and if so where is it happening?

4. I’m seeing “Christianity” in the West withering more than growing, so would this suggest we are not doing it right and if so what are we doing wrong?

5. How do you understand organic “church” growth and how does it compare to the way we have grown in the past and how we could grow in the future?

6. Does having seminaries even promote organic growth? Do they even teach it?

7. What would have to change to initiate organic Church growth?

8. Is your church or denomination doing something “different” than other churches and denominations and if so what are you trying?

For me church is way to superficial and merely social offering very little to nothing when it comes to substance. Even some I consider dear friends don't have time to pursue their Christian experience except the reserved times of public meetings.

 

[Cappadocious]

I think it is important to educate pastors at seminary. At a good seminary.

Otherwise, you get people teaching crap.

 

[MKJ]

I won't say that seminary is the only model that would work. There have been times and places where it might be an impossible system, and there may be other ways to do it. But one version of it or another has been around for a long time, because it works well.

in my opinion, in times when there were a lot of poorly-educated priests in the Church, it caused serious problems.

As well, in the west today, the basic education level is relatively high, and there are many people who are very well-educated. A poorly educated priest will be at a serious disadvantage with such people.

And, like some of the other posters, I think the model being described tends to show poor results when we look at its actual use.

 

[bling]

Here is one of the reasons I am interested in the West having organic growth, since it is working so will under communism in China. None of their small group leaders were educated at a university in theology.

In Communist China all the Christian full time “Spiritual leaders” were killed or sent to concentration camps never to be seen again. It was thought for most of the last 60 years Christianity was wiped out unless you consider the state approved Christian Church. What we have now found today is Christian Churches all over China (they do not have any buildings) and growing rapidly. These nondenominational Church may only have a few Bibles and no other Biblical literature, and no centralized even communication system, but from one end of China to the other we find they all teach the same what one might consider conservative doctrine and no affiliation with any denomination.

Today things have started opening up some. I support some Christians that have “jobs” in China that are doing mission work (on the side). Friends and relatives have “vacationed” in China, mostly to find out about the Christian, which is not easy. In some areas of China, you might even find someone that will tell you without really knowing your life history: “I am a Christian also.” Putting together what we do know it is estimated there are 100 million Christians in the underground church. You might know there are three groups meeting in homes in a village each with 20-40 members, but not know any names.

People that become and remain Christians surrounded by severe persecution of Christians, without trying to provoke persecution, seem to be stronger than Christians that would not be Christians under those circumstances
.
We are to recognize Christians by their Love and the fruits they bare. The small community of Christians I know of or have read about in China today have all been very poor, but share what they have with those Christians that have lost all they have as a result of persecution (especially the families of those fathers in prison).

One of the Christian I support in China has a chronic illness and has been visiting the same Doctor for a year. She just found out he is a Christian (he just had a hard time telling her, since she was a westerner). Everything is on a need to know among the Christians in China, so we do not know much.

I have supported Christians working “jobs” or going to school in communist China with the objective of helping the needy and especially Chinese Christians living there. We also have down the street a Chinese Christian that spent most of his life living in China working and teaching Christianity, he is a wonderful full time self-supported minister to the Chinese in our area and takes no pay from us. I also support when and as best I can Chinese Christians I can get money to. There is more information coming out all the time as it continues to open up. I have a real good friend and fellow member of the church I attend working with the Minister of Religion (he is a communist all the way) that is trying to “progress” the government approved Christian Churches but does not want it to become a “denomination”. They are talking about really having a Bible based fully Christian doctrine in these Churches, partly because the underground church has become so large and powerful they know they cannot stop it. This is not being advertised but the Communist seem to be trying to have the legal approved Christian Church become just like the underground church so they can transition the underground church to coexist with communism and not have an all-out confrontation. They have allocated money to the Dallas Christian Seminary to develop a curriculum for all the approved government Christian preachers. Dallas Christian Seminary is really not associated with any particular denomination and is pretty conservative. The Minister of Religion admits that Christianity has spread to all segments of Chinese society and cannot be stopped.

A friend in Shanghai just last week was talking about a visit she had with the local Government official responsible religion. The Official attended the local Government approved Christian Church, but seemed to be studying the Bible on his own wanting help. Those in the underground church did not trust him so he asked her to help him.

I sometimes wonder if it would be better for the growth of China’s Christianity not to have persecution as it has been in the past or stay the way it is.

This is the unorganized, unplanned, unexpected way the underground Church in China is growing so rapidly (organically).

 

[MKJ]

Here is one of the reasons I am interested in the West having organic growth, since it is working so will under communism in China. None of their small group leaders were educated at a university in theology.

In Communist China all the Christian full time “Spiritual leaders” were killed or sent to concentration camps never to be seen again. It was thought for most of the last 60 years Christianity was wiped out unless you consider the state approved Christian Church. What we have now found today is Christian Churches all over China (they do not have any buildings) and growing rapidly. These nondenominational Church may only have a few Bibles and no other Biblical literature, and no centralized even communication system, but from one end of China to the other we find they all teach the same what one might consider conservative doctrine and no affiliation with any denomination.

Today things have started opening up some. I support some Christians that have “jobs” in China that are doing mission work (on the side). Friends and relatives have “vacationed” in China, mostly to find out about the Christian, which is not easy. In some areas of China, you might even find someone that will tell you without really knowing your life history: “I am a Christian also.” Putting together what we do know it is estimated there are 100 million Christians in the underground church. You might know there are three groups meeting in homes in a village each with 20-40 members, but not know any names.

People that become and remain Christians surrounded by severe persecution of Christians, without trying to provoke persecution, seem to be stronger than Christians that would not be Christians under those circumstances
.
We are to recognize Christians by their Love and the fruits they bare. The small community of Christians I know of or have read about in China today have all been very poor, but share what they have with those Christians that have lost all they have as a result of persecution (especially the families of those fathers in prison).

One of the Christian I support in China has a chronic illness and has been visiting the same Doctor for a year. She just found out he is a Christian (he just had a hard time telling her, since she was a westerner). Everything is on a need to know among the Christians in China, so we do not know much.

I have supported Christians working “jobs” or going to school in communist China with the objective of helping the needy and especially Chinese Christians living there. We also have down the street a Chinese Christian that spent most of his life living in China working and teaching Christianity, he is a wonderful full time self-supported minister to the Chinese in our area and takes no pay from us. I also support when and as best I can Chinese Christians I can get money to. There is more information coming out all the time as it continues to open up. I have a real good friend and fellow member of the church I attend working with the Minister of Religion (he is a communist all the way) that is trying to “progress” the government approved Christian Churches but does not want it to become a “denomination”. They are talking about really having a Bible based fully Christian doctrine in these Churches, partly because the underground church has become so large and powerful they know they cannot stop it. This is not being advertised but the Communist seem to be trying to have the legal approved Christian Church become just like the underground church so they can transition the underground church to coexist with communism and not have an all-out confrontation. They have allocated money to the Dallas Christian Seminary to develop a curriculum for all the approved government Christian preachers. Dallas Christian Seminary is really not associated with any particular denomination and is pretty conservative. The Minister of Religion admits that Christianity has spread to all segments of Chinese society and cannot be stopped.

A friend in Shanghai just last week was talking about a visit she had with the local Government official responsible religion. The Official attended the local Government approved Christian Church, but seemed to be studying the Bible on his own wanting help. Those in the underground church did not trust him so he asked her to help him.

I sometimes wonder if it would be better for the growth of China’s Christianity not to have persecution as it has been in the past or stay the way it is.

This is the unorganized, unplanned, unexpected way the underground Church in China is growing so rapidly (organically).

And that may be the only way it can.

But there are inherent dangers. It would be very easy in situations like that to have heresies creep in quite inadvertently, if there was no one to correct them.

 

[Tangible]

I think what you have described in China may be similar to what happened in the early Church under persecution, and we know from history that many heretical sects developed early on. The cell group concept has been widely used in Central and South America by Charismatic churches not typically known for their rigorous doctrinal standards.

In other areas where Christianity has been introduced there was a period of initial growth where moderately to poorly educated believers spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the population and many believed. As the Church develops in an area it becomes necessary, as soon as possible, to invest in quality education for church leadership. The seminary system has proven very effective in the past.

Also, while you say that Chinese Christians are non-denominational, it is my understanding that they typically share a basic set of doctrines and practice that would not be much different from most Evangelical churches in the US, for example, credobaptism, symbolic-only communion and individualistic pietism to name a few. (Please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[bling]

And that may be the only way it can.

But there are inherent dangers. It would be very easy in situations like that to have heresies creep in quite inadvertently, if there was no one to correct them.

The thing is there is no “one” person to mislead is a huge advantage. When “one” person is exalted and praised as the leader it is extremely difficult to remain humble through successes. There is also the problem of being recognized in one area of spirituality and thus expected to be just as successful in all other areas that the person may not be as passionate about.

When you have a committed even small group of dedicated Christians each feeling very personally responsible for the truth (no single individual lording over the group), will not at least one in the group be intone to the indwelling Holy Spirit and feel free about speaking it even if no one else has expressed the same idea? What some do is take a scripture home for 3 days read it many times think about it and the context it is in, than write what they think it means and then think about that and right how to apply that meaning in their own life and try it. They then tell the group how it went and what they thought. Thinks that do not work in real life usually are misinterpretations.

Is there more or less danger with one Spiritual “leader”, since the apostles are dead?

 

[bling]

I think what you have described in China may be similar to what happened in the early Church under persecution, and we know from history that many heretical sects developed early on. The cell group concept has been widely used in Central and South America by Charismatic churches not typically known for their rigorous doctrinal standards.

In other areas where Christianity has been introduced there was a period of initial growth where moderately to poorly educated believers spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the population and many believed. As the Church develops in an area it becomes necessary, as soon as possible, to invest in quality education for church leadership. The seminary system has proven very effective in the past.

Also, while you say that Chinese Christians are non-denominational, it is my understanding that they typically share a basic set of doctrines and practice that would not be much different from most Evangelical churches in the US, for example, credobaptism, symbolic-only communion and individualistic pietism to name a few. (Please correct me if I'm wrong).

I have studied early first, second, third and fourth century Christianity. The “heresies” you talk about really occurred during relatively peaceful times, while during sever persecutions many of these “heresies” where disbanded and did not last through the persecutions. They might be revived like all heresies.

At the end of John’s life writing about seven churches in Asia minor in Revelations the two Churches that showed the best state where both severely persecuted while the other with some huge problems where not being persecuted at the time.

As far as being “most like Evangelical churches in the US”, I see a lot of differences, but since the only have the Bible they do tend to do everything similar to the way the early churches did them including believer water baptisms.

 

[Tangible]

In what plane of existence did the early church only do believer baptisms?

 

[bling]

In what plane of existence did the early church only do believer baptisms?

We have lots of Biblical examples of believer water baptism. We have some examples of whole households being baptized but do not know if any children are included in that group of households that were baptized and we do not know if in the first century they included “small children” in the household. This also assumes small children are in a lost state prior to them personally sinning.

 

[MKJ]

The thing is there is no “one” person to mislead is a huge advantage. When “one” person is exalted and praised as the leader it is extremely difficult to remain humble through successes. There is also the problem of being recognized in one area of spirituality and thus expected to be just as successful in all other areas that the person may not be as passionate about.

When you have a committed even small group of dedicated Christians each feeling very personally responsible for the truth (no single individual lording over the group), will not at least one in the group be intone to the indwelling Holy Spirit and feel free about speaking it even if no one else has expressed the same idea? What some do is take a scripture home for 3 days read it many times think about it and the context it is in, than write what they think it means and then think about that and right how to apply that meaning in their own life and try it. They then tell the group how it went and what they thought. Thinks that do not work in real life usually are misinterpretations.

Is there more or less danger with one Spiritual “leader”, since the apostles are dead?

The Church has never given authority to one person, rather, it is distributed.

However, what it does have are systems to ensure accountability.

 

[Tangible]

We have lots of Biblical examples of believer water baptism. We have some examples of whole households being baptized but do not know if any children are included in that group of households that were baptized and we do not know if in the first century they included “small children” in the household.

Oh, I forgot that when Jesus said "all nations" what he REALLY meant was "all nations, but not the infants and small children."

This also assumes small children are in a lost state prior to them personally sinning.

A statement which assumes the plain words of scripture are merely an assumption.

 

[bling]

The Church has never given authority to one person, rather, it is distributed.

Does God/Christ have all the authority?

Which “Christians” do not have the responsibility to teach (including through example) others?

If Christ is living in and through an individual Christian would Christ not have the power to exercise his authority through that person?

However, what it does have are systems to ensure accountability.

If someone secretively is truly being motivated for selfish reasons (maybe to be personally esteemed by others) and may even personally believe and/or saying he/she is doing this only for the glory of God, what “system” would catch such a misrepresentation?

 

[bling]

Oh, I forgot that when Jesus said "all nations" what he REALLY meant was "all nations, but not the infants and small children."

Right, “all nations” may just mean all mature adults in the world.

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Babies do not hate Christians do they?

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
You cannot “make a disciple” of a baby.

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
Babies do not know what is being said.

Luke 12:30 For all the nations of the world seek these things; and your Father knows that you need them.
Babies are not seeking after material things.

Romans 16:26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—
Babies cannot read.

A statement which assumes the plain words of scripture are merely an assumption.

Again, you are trying to include babies and even those not born yet in “all have sinned”. All can be referring to just all mature adults.

 

[Tangible]

Right, “all nations” may just mean all mature adults in the world.

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Babies do not hate Christians do they?

As natural born sinners, with minds set on the flesh, babies are hostile to God and by extension his people.

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

You cannot “make a disciple” of a baby.

Why not? I read bible stories to my babies, tell them that Jesus loves them, pray for them, teach them songs about God and his love for them ...

You mistakenly assume that a certain level of cognitive ability is required to be a disciple. As Christians the Church is mandated to make disciples of all nations, baptizing and teaching. My children are baptized and they are being taught. How are they not disciples of Jesus Christ?

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

Babies do not know what is being said.

Not sure of the relevance of this verse, but this in no way indicates that babies are not part of a nation.

And you repeat your error of assuming that adult cognition is required for God to save through the Gospel. God's Word is living and active, it accomplishes its purpose. The Gospel is the power of God for salvation, not the power of the hearer.

Luke 12:30 For all the nations of the world seek these things; and your Father knows that you need them.

Babies are not seeking after material things.

Oh, you're so right. I've never, ever heard a baby cry for food, or a toy, or for a parent, or ...

Romans 16:26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—

Babies cannot read.

Ah, so literacy is a prerequisite for salvation now? Or for membership in a nation? Primitive societies must not therefore be nations.

Again, you are trying to include babies and even those not born yet in “all have sinned”. All can be referring to just all mature adults.

Again, it seems that you are trying to say, contrary to scripture, that babies are not inheritors of the sinful flesh of Adam and do not need what God graciously gives in Holy Baptism.