Oregon bill aims to crack down on racially motivated 911 calls

[RDKirk]

It’s quite simple, if a black person is ever questioned, they must stop what they are doing and respond immediately. We need to make sure it is acceptable for them to be present there. It’s simply a by-product of the antebellum South where they routinely asked enslaved people for their permission papers.

That’s one of the refreshing things about traveling in Europe, there isn’t a constant demand for you to legitimize your presence. Unfortunately, in the US, there are many that believe black people must acquiesce to over-policing and stop being so uppity.

In a lobby on the phone in a hotel? It’s probably someone who is staying here. But I should check... oh, he’s on the phone. Let me wait for him to finish his call and ask. Nah, he needs to prove that he can be here! This is private property, we can’t have those people walking around as if they own everything!

I have been about to say the same thing as I've been watching this conversation.

There is a feeling among some white people that it's reasonable for black Americans to acquiesce to any challenge of our right to be anywhere at any time, and that white people have a perfect right to make that challenge. It's a feeling, a presumption, that is as natural and unconscious to those people as breathing water is to a fish, and they simply see no reason why black people don't simply comply without complaint.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Obviously he was way out of line being on the phone and not wanting to be bothered. Obviously the police needed to be called in.

What people need to do you see is fall in line immediately or we call in the police you see. That's how hotels work right?

How dare he get mad!

Which is of course why the two men were fired, because it sure looked to everyone else that they were being both unreasonable and going way to far to harass a patron.

I see we've gone from "do they have a non-racist explanation which is reasonable"....to "do they have an explanation that variant personally likes"?

At least the legislature in Oregon has the sense to require evidence.

Since we're on the topic though....what is the completely subjective level of nonsense that a hotel should have to put up with before kicking a person out? If this was a white man, would you be just as outraged? If so, why? If not...why do you hold black men to a lower standard?

 

[Ana the Ist]

There is a feeling among some white people that it's reasonable for black Americans to acquiesce to any challenge of our right to be anywhere at any time, and that white people have a perfect right to make that challenge.

He doesn't have a right to be at the hotel. It's a private business. As a private business....they have the right to kick anyone out for little to no reason at all.

Now, if they kick him out for no reason (or a bad one....like racism) he certainly has the right to seek compensation. They are obligated to take him on as a customer, but they aren't obligated to put up with his behavior.

 

[variant]

I see we've gone from "do they have a non-racist explanation which is reasonable"....to "do they have an explanation that variant personally likes"?

At least the legislature in Oregon has the sense to require evidence.

Since we're on the topic though....what is the completely subjective level of nonsense that a hotel should have to put up with before kicking a person out? If this was a white man, would you be just as outraged? If so, why? If not...why do you hold black men to a lower standard?

The so called "non-racist" explanation is to nearly immediately call the cops on the black guy rather than trying to sort things out.

Because you think that is apparently perfectly normal behavior for hotel staff.

Most people don't expect to get treated like a criminal at a hotel over a minor issue.

 

[variant]

He doesn't have a right to be at the hotel. It's a private business. As a private business....they have the right to kick anyone out for little to no reason at all.

Now, if they kick him out for no reason (or a bad one....like racism) he certainly has the right to seek compensation. They are obligated to take him on as a customer, but they aren't obligated to put up with his behavior.

They are in fact obliged to treat him like they would treat anyone else and not with undue suspicion and harassment.

As a private business they decided that their employees were out of bounds in their poor treatment of this man that didn't pass muster with their policy against discrimination.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The so called "non-racist" explanation is to nearly immediately call the cops on the black guy rather than trying to sort things out.

Because you think that is apparently perfectly normal behavior for hotel staff.

I'm just saying....if he were white, and obviously didn't go on a tirade accusing the hotel of racism (since no white person gets to do that without considerable evidence).

Let's just say it's a white man who also refuses to identify himself as a guest to the security guard and makes a scene before getting kicked out.

Would you still think it's unreasonable? Or is it only unreasonable because he's black?

 

[variant]

I'm just saying....if he were white, and obviously didn't go on a tirade accusing the hotel of racism (since no white person gets to do that without considerable evidence).

Let's just say it's a white man who also refuses to identify himself as a guest to the security guard and makes a scene before getting kicked out.

Would you still think it's unreasonable? Or is it only unreasonable because he's black?

I don't think that's what happened. And I do think a white person would have been treated differently here, hence the racism.

 

[SummerMadness]

I have been about to say the same thing as I've been watching this conversation.

There is a feeling among some white people that it's reasonable for black Americans to acquiesce to any challenge of our right to be anywhere at any time, and that white people have a perfect right to make that challenge. It's a feeling, a presumption, that is as natural and unconscious to those people as breathing water is to a fish, and they simply see no reason why black people don't simply comply without complaint.

And when they lose their job or the obvious reason, there are still defenders trying to make their blatantly wrong actions into something else.

 

[Ana the Ist]

They are in fact obliged to treat him like they would treat anyone else and not with undue suspicion and harassment.

That's exactly what they did as far as I can tell. A security guard asked him if he was a guest. That's completely normal and justified security guard behavior for someone who does nothing more than step foot inside a hotel. You're only kidding yourself by calling this harassment.

As a private business they decided that their employees were out of bounds in their poor treatment of this man that didn't pass muster with their policy against discrimination.

I'm sure....nobody ever gets wrongly fired for accusations of racism lol.

That, or it's just the safe move if you own a business.

Chipotle Manager Was Fired After Refusing To Serve A Group Of Black Men Before They Paid - St. Paul Chipotle Video

Hey at least there was no harm done...besides the loss of income, threats, stress and anxiety and depression. Aside from all that it worked out great.

The important thing is that people thought it might have happened because of racism. Who needs evidence when you have really strong feelings to guide you?

 

[variant]

That's exactly what they did as far as I can tell. A security guard asked him if he was a guest. That's completely normal and justified security guard behavior for someone who does nothing more than step foot inside a hotel. You're only kidding yourself by calling this harassment.

No, it isn't. The idea that if you talk on a phone in the lobby of a hotel you are staying at that you are likely to get questioned by security, and thrown out if you don't immediately comply is laughable.

I'm sure....nobody ever gets wrongly fired for accusations of racism lol.

That, or it's just the safe move if you own a business.

Chipotle Manager Was Fired After Refusing To Serve A Group Of Black Men Before They Paid - St. Paul Chipotle Video

Hey at least there was no harm done...besides the loss of income, threats, stress and anxiety and depression. Aside from all that it worked out great.

The important thing is that people thought it might have happened because of racism. Who needs evidence when you have really strong feelings to guide you?

I think firing people when they were doing everything properly and as trained get's you sued.

In this situation they began with discrimination, doubled down on it, and threw out a paying guest because he was mad at them for being jerks.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't think that's what happened. And I do think a white person would have been treated differently here, hence the racism.

Oh, well then...

Man that bet $85,000 on Tiger Woods once kicked out of Rothschild hotel

Here's a white man kicked out of a hotel for "wandering" and "yelling". It also says he was drunk...but as it's not against the rules to be drunk in a hotel, I can't assume that's why he was being kicked out.

That means that despite being a guest, with a room, being loud and disruptive got him ejected....by the police.

I can only assume that since it's a Best Western there was no security guard politely asking if he was a guest first. These awful racists just called the police.

That....or sometimes acting like a jerk in a hotel gets you kicked out.

 

[variant]

Oh, well then...

Man that bet $85,000 on Tiger Woods once kicked out of Rothschild hotel

Here's a white man kicked out of a hotel for "wandering" and "yelling". It also says he was drunk...but as it's not against the rules to be drunk in a hotel, I can't assume that's why he was being kicked out.

That means that despite being a guest, with a room, being loud and disruptive got him ejected....by the police.

I can only assume that since it's a Best Western there was no security guard politely asking if he was a guest first. These awful racists just called the police.

That....or sometimes acting like a jerk in a hotel gets you kicked out.

If you're trying to conflate being loud, disruptive and drunk to making a phone call in the lobby and not immediately complying with a security guard.

So no, that guy wasn't kicked out because the security guard didn't think he belonged there and they got into a verbal altercation.

I'll bet they didn't fire the security guard for doing their job as they were trained either.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you're trying to conflate being loud, disruptive and drunk to making a phone call in the lobby and not immediately complying with a security guard.

Oh no....not at all.

"According to court documents, the clerk called the man’s behavior “unacceptable” and requested he be removed from the building."

You see, court documents state he was simply kicked out for "unacceptable behavior". I don't know if he argued with or even bothered anyone.

It's almost as if these racist hotel staff people think there's a basic level of decorum to expect from people renting rooms in the same building.

When are we going to put a stop to the oppression!?!?

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

And I've got news for you: if you successfully foil a crime attempt because the police stopped and talked to them before it happened, they ALL were just "minding their own business". "Hello officer. I was just walking in this white neighborhood to see if it was a good place to walk my dog, when...I happened upon this house that had the front door unlocked."

I find it appalling that someone would just assume a black person walking in a white or nice neighborhood. Is up to no good. I find it sad we still have white neighborhoods. Yes if someone calls the cops because a black person, is walking in a white or nice area. They should be arrested for wasting tax payers money.

 

[variant]

Oh no....not at all.

"According to court documents, the clerk called the man’s behavior “unacceptable” and requested he be removed from the building."

You see, court documents state he was simply kicked out for "unacceptable behavior". I don't know if he argued with or even bothered anyone.

It's almost as if these racist hotel staff people think there's a basic level of decorum to expect from people renting rooms in the same building.

When are we going to put a stop to the oppression!?!?

Rather vague their complaint don't you think?

Well he thought their behavior was unacceptable and so did their employer.

I think we're doing fine. You're the one complaining so it's probably going well.

Arm all black people with cell phone video cameras and now they don't have to put up with it when they are mistreated.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Rather vague their complaint don't you think?

Well let's be honest....if he wasn't white and claimed he was kicked out because of racism, that hotel staff person making barely enough to survive would be fired and we'd never hear their side of the story.

Kinda like the case you brought up.

Well he thought their behavior was unacceptable and so did their employer.

Again....that's utterly meaningless. After what happened to Starbucks, every business realized it was ultimately cheaper to fire the employees and apologize to people for stuff that never happened than it is to risk drawing negative national attention.

It doesn't matter if racism occurred or not.

I think we're doing fine. You're the one complaining so it's probably going well.

We'll see....a few more Jussie Smolletts, Oberlin colleges, and employees wrongfully terminated that actually have enough money to fight it....and my guess is that suddenly people will care about reality again.

Arm all black people with cell phone video cameras and now they don't have to put up with it when they are mistreated.

I'll do you one better....

Pass a law against racism but require evidence and see how it turns out. If you have more accusations than judgements...then obviously some people will need to change their views.

 

[variant]

Well let's be honest....if he wasn't white and claimed he was kicked out because of racism, that hotel staff person making barely enough to survive would be fired and we'd never hear their side of the story.

Kinda like the case you brought up.

I'm sorry I thought you were talking about the case I was. I don't think there's any problem with kicking people out of your hotel for cause. It happens all the time.

I have a problem with kicking people out because of a situation you initiated via discrimination.

Again....that's utterly meaningless. After what happened to Starbucks, every business realized it was ultimately cheaper to fire the employees and apologize to people for stuff that never happened than it is to risk drawing negative national attention.

It doesn't matter if racism occurred or not.

It does matter. The problem here is that no amount of evidence will ever convince someone like you of racism or discrimination.

You always spin it the other way even when there's basically no reasonable way to explain the actions involved.

If you expect that to be the standard going forward, I am sorry, it's not.

We'll see....a few more Jussie Smolletts, Oberlin colleges, and employees wrongfully terminated that actually have enough money to fight it....and my guess is that suddenly people will care about reality again.

People care about reality now. It's why the Jussie Smolletts of the world are despised for their actions.

I'll do you one better....

Pass a law against racism but require evidence and see how it turns out. If you have more accusations than judgements...then obviously some people will need to change their views.

I'm sure YOU think it would go that way but I don't think your judgement is all that sound.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm sorry I thought you were talking about the case I was.

I am.

I have a problem with kicking people out because of a situation you initiated via discrimination.

Security guards being security guards isn't discrimination. Any attempt to say otherwise says more about your biases than theirs.

It does matter. The problem here is that no amount of evidence will ever convince someone like you of racism or discrimination.

Well this is just blatantly false....I gave you a link to an example of clear racism. There was evidence....which separates it from this nonsense.

You always spin it the other way even when there's basically no reasonable way to explain the actions involved.

I had to read through exactly 2 articles to find a reasonable explanation. Don't blame me for your mistaken assumptions. If you are embarrassed for being wrong....there's a simple fix, look at evidence.

If you expect that to be the standard going forward, I am sorry, it's not.

Businesses are more concerned about profits than wrongfully terminating an employee.

The one example I can find where terminating the employee wasn't really an option is that Oberlin college example. The accused there was the son of the owner....terminating him wouldn't have done any good.

They had to suffer the accusations of a swarm of gullible fools....but had the money to fight it. No one could prove they had profiled anyone. Now Oberlin college has to work out how to deal with losing millions.

People care about reality now. It's why the Jussie Smolletts of the world are despised for their actions.

Yeah? Some have clearly learned a lesson from that incident. Others still believe whatever they're told based on nothing more than the race of those speaking.

I'm sure YOU think it would go that way but I don't think your judgement is all that sound.

I didn't write it....it's right there in the law....evidence. Accusations aren't evidence...though I remember when plenty of people wanted to believe they were. Smollett is one example....Kavanaugh is another.

Perhaps you mean there will be more judgements than empty accusations. It's certainly possible....I just don't think it's likely. I think that much like the way accusations against police dry up once they get body cams....when evidence is important, the accusations simply disappear.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I'm just saying....if he were white, and obviously didn't go on a tirade accusing the hotel of racism (since no white person gets to do that without considerable evidence).

Let's just say it's a white man who also refuses to identify himself as a guest to the security guard and makes a scene before getting kicked out.

Would you still think it's unreasonable? Or is it only unreasonable because he's black?

If he was white. He would have been given treats. For having to wait so long.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If he was white. He would have been given treats. For having to wait so long.

I have no idea what this means....and I'm guessing you didn't read the article about the white man kicked out of the hotel for "unacceptable behavior".