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Oral tradition in the NT?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by polishbeast, Nov 7, 2009.

  1. polishbeast

    polishbeast Servant of Jesus

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    "The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2-3)

    Is this teaching found in the OT? If not, how can this be the case if Scripture has the final authority? Or is Jesus drawing from oral tradition in this case? Or is Jesus wrong in saying that the scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat?
     
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  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I would doubt they are the ones sitting on those thrones in Reve 20.
    I would ask the Jews about this, but they of course do not read the Christian NT/NC ehehe :)

    Matthew 23:2 saying, "upon the Mose's seat/kaqedraV <2515> are seated/ekaqisan <2523> (5656) the Scribes and the Pharisees

    Textus Rec.) Matthew 23:2 legwn epi thV mwsewV kaqedraV ekaqisan oi grammateiV kai oi farisaioi

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they are seated/ekaqisan <2523> (5656) on them. And judgment was given to them and the souls ones having been "beheaded" thru the testimony of Jesus
    [Matt 19:28/Luke 22:29?]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2009
  3. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    They were seated there illegally

    2 Kings 22:

    16Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
    17Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.
    18But to the king of Judah which sent you to enquire of the LORD, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;
    19Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.
    20Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2009
  4. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    Here's pretty much the same wording in
    1 Samuel 8:7
    And the LORD said to Samuel, &#8220;Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you;
    for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
     
  5. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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    They were the people in authority, leading over the people of Israel -- hence, "Moses' seat". And yeah, you're not supposed to rebel against the people in authority over Israel. Cf Rom 13.
     
  6. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    Rom 13:
    3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

    That's not the same scripture reference.
    It says do what they say not what they do. God gives scripture to follow, Jesus was reinstating what God had pronounced on them rejecting Him as King.
    That's refering to secular policing. It has nothing to do with people, the uniform is the authority.
     
  7. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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    The OP was asking whether Mt 23's intro was an appeal to oral tradition. It's not. It's an appeal to what was generally understood at the time, and to the place of scribes and Pharisees in governing Judea.

    The general principle of government is stated in Rom 13.
     
  8. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    "Is this teaching found in the OT?
    If not, how can this be the case if Scripture has the final authority?"

    It is in the OT so there's no denying here that scripture is the authority.

    "Or is Jesus drawing from oral tradition in this case? Or is Jesus wrong in saying that the scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat?"

    No, he's not drawing from oral tradition. The scribes and Pharisees were in Moses' seat according to the law of Moses.

    But even the law and prophets were superseded by Jesus. God said to listen to Him on the Mt of transfigeration, something the Pharisees and scribes never did.

    However they did preach from the scriptures, so Jesus is saying to listen to the scriptures.

    "The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2-3)
     
  9. wayseer

    wayseer Well-Known Member

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    The scribe and Pharisees were similar to our courts and magistrates today - they adjudicated on matters of law as initiated by Moses - thus the reference to 'Moses seat'.

    You also have to remember that for Israel there was demarcation between secular and religious law.

    Out of the adjudications that the Pharisees made became a body of law which might be called the 'common law' or Mishnah - precedents set through previous rulings and adjudications which also became incorporated into the 'law' - and had 'authority'. This is often referred to as the 'oral law'.

    You have to remember that there were only a limited number of scrolls available and these were safeguarded by the Pharisees. The scribes made additional copies as time and circumstance permitted but few people could read and write so were reliant on what the scribes and Pharisees said. Scrolls were therefore a very expensive item and few had access to them directly.

    They relied on the Temple tax to pay for their services.
     
  10. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    That's really not much different than you see in the christianuty of these forums. There are the tradition worshippers, as where the scribes. Then there's the law worshippers, as were the Pharisees. Then there's the Paul worshippers that place his word above that of Jesus.
    Of the whole bible the OT is revered, the epistles are revered, but the gospels are ridiculed as not believable. To that I think Jesus would still refer those in christianity today to. He's only King to a very few. Those who place Him first. People make it more than Him, even tho they still use the words of scripture they don't obey Him.
     
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    So is the book of Revelation it would seem :)

    Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend! and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the redemption of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 16/21]
    31 "Thus also ye, whenever ye may be seeing these-things becoming/ginomena <1096> (5740), ye are knowing that nigh is the Kingdom of the God."

    Reve 16:17 and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of Him into the air and came out a great Voice from the Sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become"/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 21:6]
     
  12. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    Are you then saying that Jesus advocated the "oral law"? I'm not sure how your answering this question,
    "is Jesus drawing from oral tradition in this case? "

    Btw, the text said what they were preaching. I don't think civic duties applied, as I stated in an earlier post.


    Jn 2:28-29
    28 Then they reviled him and said, &#8220;You are His disciple, but we are Moses&#8217; disciples. 29 We know that God spoke to Moses; as for this fellow, we do not know where He is from.&#8221;


    Jn 5:45
    45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you&#8212;Moses, in whom you trust.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2009
  13. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    This is the scripture wording regarding civic matters.

    NOTE again that this refers to the time of Judges when the people had not set a king between them and God.
    A fact that Jesus, I'm sure, couldn't have missed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2009
  14. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    Nehemiah 9:17a
    17 They refused to obey,
    And they were not mindful of Your wonders
    That You did among them.
    But they hardened their necks,
    And in their rebellion
    They appointed a leader
    To return to their bondage.

    &#12288;
    If you would read in your bible you would see that the nation was a kingdom of priests
    until the majority worshipped the golden calf.
    Then only the Levites who sided with Moses were called priests, headed by Aaron.
    Then the priest Eli lost the Aaronic priesthood when Samuel was instituted
    as priest/prophet from the tribe of Ephraim.
    The people rejected that to institute a king, rejecting God.
    The kings set about reinstating that which was no longer.

    The oral tradition failed to record their own mistakes
    just as there is little said each time they built on ruins.

    However God, in each case honored those who honored Him.



    "I will honor those who honor Me" 1 Samuel
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2009
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    :thumbsup: :angel:

    Galatian 4:24 which-any is an allegory. For these are two Covenants, one indeed from mount Sinai into slavery/douleian <1397> generating/gennwsa <1080> who-any is Hagar.
    25 For the yet Hagar is Sinai mount in the Arabia is together-elemental yet to the now Jerusalem, for she is slaving/douleuei <1398> (5719) with the children/offspring of her.

    The Mountain in Matt 21 question - Christian Forums
    The Mountain in Matt 21 question
     
  16. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    Sarah, as grace being the New Jerusalem.
    That really goes back to Melchezedek being king of Jerusalem.
    It's not refering to earthly kingdoms.

    This is what God said about the old priesthood before the time of the kings.

    1 Sam 2:29 Why do you kick at My sacrifice and
    My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling place,
    and honor your sons more than Me, to make yourselves fat
    with the best of all the offerings of Israel My people?&#8217;
    30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says:
    &#8216;I said indeed that your house and the house of your

    father would walk before Me forever.&#8217;

    But now the LORD says: &#8216;Far be it from Me;
    for those who honor Me I will honor, and
    those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.
    31 Behold, the days are coming that I will cut off your arm
    and the arm of your father&#8217;s house, so that there will not be an old man in your house.

    That was at Shiloh.
     
  17. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    John 4:20 The Fathers of us in the Mountain, this-one, worship, and ye are saying that in Jerusalem is the where to be worshipping it is binding.'

    What are you saying? Besides quoting references you've stated no opinion as to the Op...
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    If I state my opinion, this thread will probably be move to the Eschatology board as have other threads I have started :D

    Hebrew 12:18 For ye came not near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

    Revelation 8:8 And the second Messenger did sound, and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood [Matt 21:21/Hebrew 12:18]
     
  19. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

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    Jesus Only

    Matt 17:4 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Lord, it is
    good for us to be here; if You are willing, I will make three
    tents here, one for You and one for Moses and one for Elijah.
    (8) And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one except
    Jesus Himself alone.

    In Matthew 17:1-8 we have a clear revelation of the fact that
    with the coming of Jesus both Moses and Elijah were over.
    Moses and Elijah represent the entire Old Testament, with
    Moses representing the law and Elijah representing the
    prophets. Therefore, the fact that Moses and Elijah were over
    indicates that the entire Old Testament, consisting of the Law
    and the Prophets, was over.

    Peter took the lead to propose to the Lord that he build three
    tabernacles, one for Moses, one for Elijah, and one for the
    Lord Jesus (v. 4). "While he was still speaking, behold, a
    bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the
    cloud, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I delight; hear
    Him!" (v. 5). When the disciples heard this, they fell on
    their face. When they lifted up their eyes, "they saw no one
    except Jesus Himself alone" (v. 8).

    Moses and Elijah had
    disappeared, and only Jesus remained. Peter had proposed to
    keep Moses and Elijah, that is, the law and the prophets, with
    Christ, but God took Moses and Elijah away, leaving "no one
    except Jesus Himself alone."

    No one except Jesus Himself alone
    should remain in the New Testament. He is today's Moses,
    imparting the law of life into His believers, and also today's
    Elijah, speaking for God and speaking forth God within His
    believers.

    Keeping things in perspective. What does Jesus say?
     
  20. wayseer

    wayseer Well-Known Member

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    As I understand the OP the matter of 'Moses seat' was the issue. I hoped I demonstrated that Pharisees occupied 'Moses seat' when they were performing their civic duty in adjudicating on matters of the Law. These 'reasonings' or results, became know as the Mishnah.
     
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