Open Theism in Medieval Judaism

[Humble_Disciple]

While I disagree with open theism, it's a false accusation that open theism is a modern innovation. Open theism was taught by the medieval Jewish philosopher Gersonides, as well as other medieval Jewish thinkers, based on Genesis 22:12.

Genesis 22:12
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” He said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

In contrast to the theology held by other Jewish thinkers, Jewish theologian Louis Jacobs argues, Gersonides held that God does not have complete foreknowledge of human acts. "Gersonides, bothered by the old question of how God's foreknowledge is compatible with human freedom, holds that what God knows beforehand is all the choices open to each individual. God does not know, however, which choice the individual, in his freedom, will make."[5]

Another neoclassical Jewish proponent of self-limited omniscience was Abraham ibn Daud. "Whereas the earlier Jewish philosophers extended the omniscience of God to include the free acts of man, and had argued that human freedom of decision was not affected by God's foreknowledge of its results, Ibn Daud, evidently following Alexander of Aphrodisias, excludes human action from divine foreknowledge. God, he holds, limited his omniscience even as He limited His omnipotence in regard to human acts".[6]
"The view that God does not have foreknowledge of moral decisions which was advanced by ibn Daud and Gersonides (Levi ben Gershom) is not quite as isolated as Rabbi Bleich indicates, and it enjoys the support of two highly respected Acharonim, Rabbi Yeshayahu Horowitz (Shelah haKadosh) and Rabbi Chaim ibn Attar (Or haHayim haKadosh). The former takes the views that God cannot know which moral choices people will make, but this does not impair His perfection. The latter considers that God could know the future if He wished, but deliberately refrains from using this ability in order to avoid the conflict with free will."[7]

Rabbi Yeshayahu Horowitz explained the apparent paradox of his position by citing the old question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot pick it up?" He said that we cannot accept free choice as a creation of God's, and simultaneously question its logical compatibility with omnipotence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gersonides

The reason why open theism doesn't contradict God's perfection is because, according to open theists, the future is unknowable because, by definition, it doesn't yet exist.

Asking if God can know a future that doesn't exist yet is, according to open theism, like asking if God can create a rock so big that even He can't lift it.

According to open theism, while God knows beforehand all the choices open to each individual, He doesn't know ahead of time exactly what man's choice will be. At the same time, God is able to fulfill prophecy by, in real time, influencing events to His will.

Open theism, just like Calvinism, Molinism, Arminianism, provisionism, etc. is a legitimate interpretation of scripture, since it has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

I disagree with open theism because I don't think it's strong enough on the fulfillment of prophecy, but I could be wrong, and it has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation anyway.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories
Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism

This video explains open theism with scripture alone:

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

While I disagree with open theism, it's a false accusation that open theism a modern innovation. Open theism was taught by the medieval Jewish philosopher Gersonides, based on Genesis 12:12.

Genesis 22:12
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” He said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”



The reason why open theism doesn't contradict God's perfection is because, according to open theists, the future is unknowable because, by definition, it doesn't yet exist.

Asking if God can know a future that doesn't exist yet is, according to open theism, like asking if God can create a rock so big that even He can't lift it.

According to open theism, while God can predict what humans will choose in any possible situation, He doesn't know ahead of time exactly what man's choice will be. At the same time, God is able to fulfill prophecy by, in real time, influencing events to His will.

Open theism, just like Calvinism, Molinism, Arminianism, provisionism, etc. is a legitimate interpretation of scripture, since it has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

Thanks for that, it is nice to hear someone be supportive of Open Theism while still disagreeing with it. I got fed up with the cries of 'heresy' after a while from people who were misrepresenting what we said.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Thanks for that, it is nice to hear someone be supportive of Open Theism while still disagreeing with it. I got fed up with the cries of 'heresy' after a while from people who were misrepresenting what we said.

If it weren't for my respect of Judaism, I probably wouldn't be saying anything favorable of open theism.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

I disagree with open theism because I don't think it's strong enough on the fulfillment of prophecy, but I could be wrong, and it has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation anyway.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

If it weren't for my respect of Judaism, I probably wouldn't be saying anything favorable of open theism.

Don't ruin it

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Don't ruin it

I just don't find open theism's explanation of prophecy personally satisfying.

Molinism: The Bridge Between Calvinism & Arminianism

 

[Humble_Disciple]

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Asking if God can know a future that doesn't exist yet is, according to open theism, like asking if God can create a rock so big that even He can't lift it.

Rabbi Yeshayahu Horowitz explained the apparent paradox of his position by citing the old question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot pick it up?" He said that we cannot accept free choice as a creation of God's, and simultaneously question its logical compatibility with omnipotence.
Gersonides - Wikipedia

 

[Joy]

MOD HAT ON

This Thread has Moved
From General Theology
To Controversial Christian Theology

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Humble_Disciple]

I've been a fan of Gregory Boyd ever since he first published Myth of a Christian Nation. I'm still not quire sure if open theism gives a satisfying explanation for prophecy.

Boyd is not a heretic. He's one of the best scholars on the historical Jesus.

He is also a notable figure in New Testament scholarship and the Quest for the Historical Jesus.[34] He is critical of liberal scholarship as typified by the Jesus Seminar as well as the individual work of scholars like John Dominic Crossan and Burton Mack. He has participated in numerous public debates, most notably with friend Robert M. Price and Dan Barker on the historicity of the New Testament and related matters.[35] His first book in this area was Cynic Sage or Son of God? (1995). More recently, his book (co-authored with Paul Rhodes Eddy), The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition (2007) won the 2008 Christianity Today Book of the Year Award (Biblical Studies category).[36]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Boyd_(theologian)

 

[Bobber]

.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I just don't find open theism's explanation of prophecy personally satisfying.

Molinism: The Bridge Between Calvinism & Arminianism

What in particular do you have a problem with?

For me Open Theism is the perfect blend of Omnipotence and Omnipresence.

You could try looking into Neo-Molinism which is Greg Boyd's blend of Open Theism. I quite like that too and waver between the two currently.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

What in particular do you have a problem with?

For me Open Theism is the perfect blend of Omnipotence and Omnipresence.

You could try looking into Neo-Molinism which is Greg Boyd's blend of Open Theism. I quite like that too and waver between the two currently.

How is God able to predict the future if the future doesn't exist?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

How is God able to predict the future if the future doesn't exist?

God prophecies and then makes it happen. As an example I will type a word for a big grey animal in a moment.

Elephant.

So I prophesied and I made it happen - God does that on a larger scale both in space and time.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

God prophecies and then makes it happen. As an example I will type a word for a big grey animal in a moment.

Elephant.

So I prophesied and I made it happen - God does that on a larger scale both in space and time.

How does God know all the possibilities of the future if the future doesn't exist?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

How does God know all the possibilities of the future if the future doesn't exist?

Are you asking about Neo-Molinism or Open Theism?

The Neo-Molinism view is that God knows all of the possible futures (as in Molinism), but not which one is actualised until it is inevitable.

Open Theism on the other hand says that the future does not exist and God knows it.

In th both views God is all Wise and in his wisdom knows the likelihood of various actions and can enable things he wants to happen to happen.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Are you asking about Neo-Molinism or Open Theism?

The Neo-Molinism view is that God knows all of the possible futures (as in Molinism), but not which one is actualised until it is inevitable.

Open Theism on the other hand says that the future does not exist and God knows it.

In th both views God is all Wise and in his wisdom knows the likelihood of various actions and can enable things he wants to happen to happen.

In contrast to the theology held by other Jewish thinkers, Jewish theologian Louis Jacobs argues, Gersonides held that God does not have complete foreknowledge of human acts. "Gersonides, bothered by the old question of how God's foreknowledge is compatible with human freedom, holds that what God knows beforehand is all the choices open to each individual. God does not know, however, which choice the individual, in his freedom, will make."[5]
Gersonides - Wikipedia

How does God know all the choices open to each individual?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

How does God know all the choices open to each individual?

Because knows all the things that we know. So if I know the choices I have, then so does God. In his wisdom he can predict more accurately which option I will choose, but until I actually choose it, it is open.

Which is exactly what Gersonides said

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Because knows all the things that we know. So if I know the choices I have, then so does God. In his wisdom he can predict more accurately which option I will choose, but until I actually choose it, it is open.

Which is exactly what Gersonides said

This discussion reminds me of Rabbi Harold Kushner.