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[Open] Question about Nasraya Mshikhani

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by ChavaK, May 16, 2007.

  1. nazarenedollar

    nazarenedollar Newbie

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    Here is something i got from essene.tribe

    The Differences between a Christian and a Yeshuan
    If someone from a Christian background happened upon a Yeshuan, and thought "well, we are essentially the same religion" they would be very much mistaken. A Yeshuan and a Christian are worlds apart and I will explain why.

    A Christian worships Jesus. They define themselves as the religion of Christianity and they are part of a church.

    A Yeshuan does not call upon Jesus. They do not define themselves as Christian or part of the religion of Christianity and are not part of a church, denomination, sect or cult.

    A Yeshuan worships Yeshua as Yahuah (Yahweh). They belong to the Essene-Mandaean Religion and they belong to a Knushta or "Assembly" of fellow Essene Mandaeans.

    Confusing?


    Let's start with some basics:

    Holy Books

    The Holy Book of the Christians is called the "Holy Bible" and is comprised of what is commonly called the "Old Testament" (this term is considered derogatory to the entire Israelite community and is only used by those communities who view this book as being "outdated" and "unnecessary", hence the term "Old" or "no longer relevant"). This book also contains the book called the "New Covenant". That contains four Gospels, the book of Acts, the Pauline epistles a letter of St. James, the Book of Hebrews, letters of Peter and John and the book of Revelations.

    The canon of the Christian book varies depending on which ecumenical council each sect of Christianity observes. There are a several compilations, some with added or omitted books. The most stripped down version of a canon in Christianity is the Protestant canon.

    The most authoritative version of these texts are viewed as the Greek texts.

    The Holy Book of the Yeshuans is called the Sefer Shakhynah or "The Book of Presence". This Book is written in ancient Hebrew, which pre-dates the common Jewish and Christian Bible texts.

    What most people in the West do not know or understand is the nature of the Essene community and its commitment to the writings bestowed upon them from God. It is a solemn and sacred duty of the Essene scribes to safeguard all of the Holy Writings. So the Essenes preserved the Ancient Hebrew Texts, the Essene texts and the writings of the Assembly of Jerusalem.

    Here is an excerpt from one of our community's sacred Sacred Writings, the Book of the Patriarchs which details the attitude to the community of Believers in the Holy Land after the ascension of Yeshua.

    "They broke the doors of our homes, ran our mothers and children out into the streets and flogged them while their scribes stole the holy scrolls from the arks in which they resided....They chased us with ropes and stones and daggers out of the holy city where we fled to the hills and Alhym protected us from the strong winds....There we stored the holy scrolls of Torah and Yegab [Ya'aqub/James] and the holy beshura [Gospel] of Matayahu [Matthew] and it was there that we read from the holy word of Alhym...blessed be His Name forever and ever who gives us protection with His right hand Yeshua, the Saviour of Yisrael."

    Essene communities have perpetually remained separate from either the world of Christianity, or the world of Babylonian Rabbinical Judaism, or Hellenized Judaism.


    Yeshua or Jesus?

    Yeshuans (Heb. "Yeshuanim") do not believe that Jesus and Yeshua are the same person. Yeshua is Yahuah. "Jesus" is a transliteration of Middle English, Greek and Latin terminology that sought to place the origin of the Messiah's name as a rendering of Joshua, and not His real Name which means "Yeshua is Yahweh".


    On the Trinity

    Christians have varying beliefs about the Trinity, but constantly seek to define this. Yeshuans believe in the Three Fold Oneness of God but emphasize that God is One, insisting that to define or dissect the nature of God is not only beyond the capacity of humanity, it is ultimately disrespectful to God and not pertinent to whether a soul is reconciled to God or not.


    Universality or Tribalism?

    Christians, rooted in Pauline Theology, view the way of life laid out in the gospels as a philosophy that can be applied anywhere and relates in all situations.

    Yeshuans believe the Gospels teach the Essene way of life, and seek to bring all people into this one Tribe - that the rules of the Tribe are based in Torah and in the context of this Tribe all these rules apply, and outside of this community they do not. ( i.e. One's neighbor is a literal member of your tribe, not simply any person you meet on the street. )


    Torah, Yeshua and Ya'aqub ha'Tzadik or Jesus, Paul and Rome?

    Christians get their interpretation of Christianity out of the Pauline writings and subsequent ecumenical councils that followed they times of the Apostles and disciples.

    Yeshuans get their interpretation of the Essene Mandaean Religion from Torah, the Gospels and the writings of St. James the Righteous. Because the Orthodox Essene community has its own Sanhedrin, there is no need of ecumenical councils, so no ruling of an ecumenical council has any bearing on the Yeshuan community.


    How Many Religious Entities?

    Some Jewish communities believe there are two: Judaism and the gentile worshippers of Jesus. Christians believe there are two: Christianity and Judaism. To the Yeshuan there are three: The Essene Mandaean community, the Babylonian Rabbinical Jewish community, and the pagan Christian cult that broke away from the Essene Mandaean community in 318 CE to form their own religion.


    Regarding Torah

    The Babylonian Rabbinical community observes Torah. Christians (not including messianic Christian groups) reject Torah, referring to is as "Law" and views this as no longer of relevance or necessity, creating theology to explain why the Christian is not expected to observe Torah. The Essene Khasidim (community of Orthodox Essenes) believe Yeshua is Torah and to follow His Way means to observe the Torah sealed in the Blood of the Lamb.


    Sabbath: Saturday or Sunday?

    Both Babylonian Rabbinical Jews and Essene Khasidim and Messianic groups observe Saturday as the Sabbath Day, Christianity rejects the Sabbath day, or more accurately believe that Sunday, is the Sabbath.


    Tzadikim, popes and patriarchs

    Babylonian Rabbinical Judaism does not have a centralized authority, so while there may be prominent and notable religious figures in their community, there is no centralized leader. Christianity is broken up into many patriarchates, a Papacy for Rome and then there are the many Protestant variations that deny any leadership outside of their immediate groups. The Essene Mandaean Religion has a Tzadik or Righteous Teacher as Tradition of the Essene community holds to. This individual sits on the Apostolic Throne, and works in harmony with the Beit Knushta or Apostolic Sanhedrin. The Tzadik is sometime referred to as a Patriarch but not as defined in Christian terms as an Essene Tzadik is divinely appointed and assisted in governing the assembly of Essene Khasidim.


    Apostolic Succession or Apostasy?

    Depending on the Christian community, there is either the belief that Apostolic authority is bestowed either on the lineage of patriarchs or popes in the church down through the ages (not new apostles, only those chosen to succeed from the line of Peter or Paul). Protestant communities do not lend much credence apostolic authority though they are spawned from the Roman Catholic Church and derive much of their theology from Rome ( i.e. Augustine and the Ecumenical councils).

    The Orthodox Essene community believes that Apostolic authority was bestowed by Yeshua to all the Apostles but placing St. James as the Leader of the earthly Assembly and that it is understood that all Apostles, disciples and Believers were expected to be in obedience to this Divine Authority. While the Apostles went into the world to spread the Good News and make disciples, the claim by Rome that the papacy is linked to St. Peter is incorrect. St. Peter was located in Babylon and not Rome, so the claim to Apostolic authority through Peter is an invalid claim. Add to this, that Apostolic succession ended in the West with the excommunication of the western church. Yeshuans believe passionately in the reality of Apostles, in Apostolic leadership and authority and Succession. We just don't believe that any excommunicated religious body has any thing to do with God's Apostles at all.


    Liturgies or Siddurim?

    While Essene Khasidim, Babylonian Rabbinical Jews and Messianics all have Siddurim, Christians have liturgies in sacramental churches, and what are simple called "the service" in Protestant churches.


    Bima or Podium?

    In the services of the non-Essene Jewish community, the Torah is read at the back of the room. In Christianity, the Gospels are read from the podium if there is an altar or from the stage if there is not. For the Essene Khasidim, both the Torah is read at the Back of the Room and the Gospels and Epistles are read at a table in front of the assembly, off to the side of the altar.

    The Essenes have Tabernacles, and we have Torah Scrolls that are read from the Bima. Kahein (priests) and Leviim (priests' assistants) take precedence in readings.


    Sacraments or symbolism?

    Yeshuans have sacraments that are rooted either in Torah, in the Essene way of life or the life of Yeshua Himself.

    Christians either observe sacraments deemed as divine mysteries. (i.e. not entirely sure where they came from) or they reject the Sacraments altogether.


    The Origin of the Priesthood:

    The Yeshuans believe that the priesthood began at Sinai with Aharon (Aaron, the brother of Moses) so all priests should conform to this model.

    Depending on the community within Christianity, the view is either that the priesthood is rooted in patriarchates or papacies. Some Christian groups do not have a priesthood.


    Jerusalem or Rome?

    This crux of the division would be this: Who is in charge of God's Sheep? Is it Rome or is it Jerusalem?

    Christians range from a belief that authority was bestowed to either Rome (all patriarchates of the West are rooted in the early Roman Church) so Christians, whether they believe in the authority of Rome, an Ecumenical Patriarch, or do not believe in governing authority at all, i.e. Protestants, these are all groups or individuals who believe the authority of Messiah's sheep is rooted in Rome.

    We believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the authority of the Faith was always the families of Mary and Joseph and that the authority of the faith will never leave the Holy Land. The God of Sinai is still the God of Sinai. He never relocated west or anywhere else. He established one Community and never gave up on them, even when they turned from Him from time to time.
     
  2. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    I have never heard of these people.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I resemble them in faith..
     
  4. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    I think I may too but different vocabulary, I guess. Are they a large group?
     
  5. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    It's all smoke and mirrors. They have no legitimate connection with the ancient Church of Jerusalem, their theology is rather delusional and they have no right to use the term "Patriarchate of Jerusalem", which is an actual office in the Orthodox Church with genuine and actual lineage to James the first bishop of Jerusalem.

    Just another group trying to claim authority and validate their existence by stealing from the real Church.

    It's just more Americans trying to 'recreate' (invent) a Church that they imagine the original might have looked like. The mish-mash of doctrines, terms from different linguistic sources and silly names is a dead give-away.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
  6. nazarenedollar

    nazarenedollar Newbie

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    Well there are two possabilites they are fakes or they are legit. Test them by Torah then Yeshua's teachings if you must then by Paul's. Put them to the light of the Word of G-d they are speaking Aramaic so remember that (Mar means lord thus when they say Mar Yah they are saying L-rd Yah)
     
  7. nazarenedollar

    nazarenedollar Newbie

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    The Aramaic is not important just something to throw out there.
     
  8. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    There's more to it than subjecting them to subjective readings of scripture.
     
  9. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Shalom :)

    It is interesting seeing some of the things you noted and it'd be niceto investigate the Church of Jerusalem myself and it's cool to see what it's about..
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2011
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    What areas do you feel that names were silly and in what way do you feel there was a mish-mash of theology? Moreover, with what was noted with the group, if it is indeed the attempt to recreate what they imagine the original would have looked like, would it not technically be similar to what has occurred with the Messianic Jewish Movement/many within it saying they wish to live a more Judaic lifestyle for Messiah and saying how they live is what the original church was about? I say this because in light of what you brought up with the Orthodox Church, many there would look at the Messianic Judaism movement alongside the Protestant and the Catholic movement and note that none of it is really fully connected with the early church as they are.......
     
  11. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    Hey Visionary, don't worry about this guy. You did nothing wrong, he's just feeling put in a corner because his denomination is built on a pile of sand and the slightest bit of questioning begins to shift his faith.
     
  12. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    Contra is right, this whole claim to legitimacy is all smoke and mirrors.

    I have no issue if someone wants to debate theologically, but when sound history is in question, then I have no qualms with labeling it as total bunk.
     
  13. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    I need not a website to see through to the core. The legitimacy of the following claim is laughable:
    You refer to the original Beit Din established in the first century Netzarim. I don't really have an issue with Catholicism making claims to this being the unbroken chain of papacy, as to me this is merely a misunderstanding of the role. It was later converted to the papal lineage. However, what you propose is a complete fabrication of history. The idea that the Jewish council continued to this day is pure bunk.

    To be honest, the Netzarim Beit Din dissolved completely from history after the Bar Kochba revolt blamed them for failure. From that point on, the only reference to any sort of Messianic Jewish faith was in the 13th century by a Catholic who abhorred the sect in Israel who clung to "Jewish traditions and Jesus as the Messiah." Otherwise, history pretty much entirely lost track of the Messianic sects of Judaism until 18th century Russia, and then a much more modern revival in the US at the turn of the 20th century and again on a larger scale during the Jesus movement of the 70's.

    But this claim of a Messianic papal line is utterly ridiculous... just as Contra points out.

    So... I need not look at some random website. I can outright tell you the claims you make in this very thread are bunk.

    I encourage you to stick to theological discussions. Trying to legitimize a false history will quickly get you ostracized by the scholastic circle of posters around here ;)
     
  14. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    where can I find more about this?
     
  15. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    I have to agree, on the whole, with Contra and Simchat. Some of the ideas, on an individual basis, of beliefs are not too far off from what I, personally, believe. But, to claim continuance, physically, from James on, is too far fetched for even me, regardless of how much I'd like to believe it!

    Sinchat, one doesn't have to be a scholastic to be able to recognize things easy to debunk.

    I'm no expert, but I've been to Messianic congregations in Michigan, Ohio, New York, Philadelphia, Virginia, Georgia, South Carolina and Florida. For each of these congregations I had to do searches to find them and I've NEVER, EVER come across anything to do with this faith. Not once!! Something legitimate should have popped up over the years as I would look for places to worship while on my little trips. Don't you think? I'm talking about searches since 2006 and I only heard about this group when this thread was resurrected yesterday. That's kind of telling for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2011
  16. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    My point was simply that I didn't need to visit the website to know the claims were bunk.

    oh, and it's Simchat, not Sinchat ;)
    I'm sure it was an innocent error, hehe.
     
  17. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Hey, feel honored my computer gave you a letter there!! Lately my "m" won't come up at all. So without the typo, it probably would have been "sichat" hehehe. I try to catch both, typos and missing letters, but yes, sometimes I miss 'em. Other times, in trying to the correct my naughty "m" I will get 2 of them. Aah poor poor pitiful me. Any violins playing yet?? :D
     
  18. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Aaaaah, such lovely sounds for us poor overworked souls of the world, preparing such wondrous pity-parties that no one comes to....hahahaha
     
  20. nazarenedollar

    nazarenedollar Newbie

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    It is considered more Jewish (by some) because of it doesn't have the paganism that the roman catholic (or alot of the catholic) churches have. Worship of saints or the pope. Seeing Mary as Queen of heaven and praying to her. there is also the idols that they keep in there churches. I don't thank that the AoJ do all of these but I was answering your question. :preach:
     
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