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[open]Is the OT true?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by christus, May 31, 2006.

  1. christus

    christus Active Member

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    Once, I used to believe in God, now I'm not.

    We say that the bible was written by Gods words (of course by people but by God "inspiration").
    But if God, THE MIGHTY wrote it why hazal (hachamenu zichronam livracha) corrected the bible?
     
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  2. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    who is Hazel?
     
  3. christus

    christus Active Member

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    Were people who considered to be smart and they did changes in the bible.
     
  4. stone

    stone Senior Contributor Supporter

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    from what i understand, Since the time of Moses, all jewish children were taught and memorized the torah, and what we have today is still the same. The septuagint or however you spell it, is the work of deception.
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    It truly is a battle field, but God is amazing in that He can use what seems to be nothing left but tatters of His Word to inspire His people to see His Truth.

    I would suggest that you prepare to meet with God, and based upon the words that are still preserved in His Word, follow what it takes to be in His presence. Accept no substitute but the ALL MIGHTY. No warm and fuzzy, no nice nice, but the real melt like wax in His Presence, you know that one that turns Moses' hair to white. The one presence where Isaiah cries out in its presence, "Woe is my for I am unclean" The one where you know that you are in the Presence of Holy. The Holy One of Israel.

    The reason I say this, is because until you read His Word through His eyes, you will not see the spirit is still alive and moving to make every Word of God come to pass.
     
  6. christus

    christus Active Member

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    if it was deception. Rabbies from Israel wouldn't teach this, but they do!
     
  7. Talmidah

    Talmidah היום כולם יודעים - הרב כהנא צדק

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    He means "hazal" - our sages (of blessed memory)
     
  8. stone

    stone Senior Contributor Supporter

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    They teach from torah, not the septuagint.
     
  9. shmuel

    shmuel Active Member

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    Then how do you explain II Kiings 22:8-20?

    If the septuaguint is deception then why do the NT writers quote it? Take a look at Acts 15:16-18. It is a quote from Amos 9:11-12. Compare the quote in Acts with the Masoretic text.
     
  10. Torah

    Torah Senior Veteran

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    Be careful of what you read and even be more careful of what you believe. There are many writhing about G-ds word with as many opinion about G-ds word. I am very careful about what books I read, and I must say I read very few books out side the Bible. When we read books we are allowing ourselves to become influence by that person thought, philosophies, & ideas.
    Advice I have given my children as the went off to collage to “Learn” [lol] I would tell them “Don’t become so smart that you become stupid”.

    2 things about the OT I would like to point out;

    1) The Torah has been written the same from it’s beginning, and there is a way to tell if a Torah has been changed. I have seen 3 Torah and all were the same as the others. One was 200 years old from Southern part of France. Another was 300 years from western part of France, and the last one was over 400 years old and was from Egypt and all 3 were the same.

    2} the Dead Sea scrolls, [It is on display in Israel] One of the scrolls was the scroll / book of Isaiah, and when compared to a modern writhing of the Book of Isaiah they were the same.

    christus I would suggest that you be a little more selective in what you read.
    Shalom:wave:
     
  11. shmuel

    shmuel Active Member

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    Actually any written material from the time of Moses, the conquest, the judges, and the united monarchy has been editted at least for spelling.



    The oldest complete manuscript of the Tanakh is the Lenigrad codex, which dates from around 1010 CE. We have complete copies of the NT that are hundres of years older.

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/biblical_manuscripts/LeningradCodex.shtml



    In fact, there are numerous differences between the Great Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic text. The differences are not great enough to alter any doctrine, but there are many differences nevertheless. In order to view the Great Isaiah Scroll and see an analysis please go to:

    http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qumdir.htm

    Consider the quote from the introduction:

    It is substantially the same as the received text, but still has errors and differences that need to be explained.
     
  12. christus

    christus Active Member

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    1) Kri and Ktiv (קריא וכתיב) because the bible was spoken many years there were some versions..and the kri and ktiv is how you read and how you say it.

    2) Tikuney Sofrim (תיקוני סופרים)- "Writer's Corrections"- in 18 places in the bible Hazal changed words. One example is that there was "curse your god" (or something like that in the book of Job) and they said that the word curse shouldn't be near the word "god" so they changed it to "bless your god".
     
  13. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    Not true at all. There are only a small handful of changes, and it was either a single letter or individual word. Even the oldest texts dating several centuries b.c.e. match the masoratic texts perfectly.

    This is only partially true. There are thousands of manuscripts that predate the first century... but you are correct in saying they are not complete. However, the NT texts RADICALLY underwent changes (entire paragraphs, stories, parables, sentances) over the first 6 centuries. As well, no "complete manuscript" existed for a few hundred years post-first century c.e.

    this is an odd choice because even the Great Isaiah scroll varies from contemporary manuscripts found in the dead sea scrolls. The Isaiah manuscript was obviously redacted and is known to have underwent changes. However, older Isaiah scrolls and even those found as contemporaries in the Qumran communities are literally word for word the same as the Masoratic text.

    Shalom,
    Yafet
     
  14. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    Christus,

    I found this article online and thought you would find it interesting:
    It seems to say that while certain Rabbis claimed a few small changes were made, these were most likely due to errors by a copyist as the earlier texts are actually the same as the copied texts. Considering the lengthy care a Sofer (Jewish Scribe) undertakes to copy the text of the Torah exactly letter for letter it seems highly unlikely that these changes took place at all. As well, the earliest texts do not reflect these changes. If a Sofer made a mistake with a single letter, they would throw the text away and start from scratch.

    shalom,
    Yafet
     
  15. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    Also...

    looking at Kri and Ktiv in Hebrew, the only variance between the two words is a single relatively minor or auxiliary letter such as "vav" or "yud". Yes, it changes the meaning slightly, but it is most certainly the case that it was argued among the Soferim as to which spelling to use as they were nearly identical. Again, considering the most modern texts have not changed since the most ancient texts in these regards, I would not get too worried. Some Rabbinical scholars in later reflection debated which word should have properly been used in that section, but it was never actually changed.

    -Yafet
     
  16. shmuel

    shmuel Active Member

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    Did you read what I wrote? I said materials written prior to the 9th century BCE were editted for spelling. The fact is that Hebrew did not use matres lectionis prior to the 9th century BCE, yet there is no portion of the Tanakh that is without these letters. The Torah, most of the former prophets, the writings of Shlomoh, and the psalms of David if they were written at their traditional dates were written without matres. The spelling was altered later.

    Would you provide a link for these "thousands" of manuscripts.

    Again, I ask you to provide a link with support for your claim.
     
  17. shmuel

    shmuel Active Member

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    Issues regarding the text of the Tanakh are especially great in the book of Jeremiah. Please see:

    http://www.talkreason.org/articles/jer.pdf

    Quoting in part:

     
  18. shmuel

    shmuel Active Member

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    As far as I know the oldest material that can be said to contain a Biblical text are the Ketef Hinnom silver scrolls that contain the Birkat Kohanim. These scrolls date from the 7th century BCE. If the Torah is dated to the period 1200-1400 BCE depending on whether you favor an early date or a late date for the Exodus then there is a 500-800 year gap between the source and the preserved inscriptions.

    http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=17741
     
  19. christus

    christus Active Member

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    And what with Tikun Sofrim?
     
  20. christus

    christus Active Member

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    But if God never wrong so how there are mistakes in the bible?
     
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