[open]Is the OT true?

visionary

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It truly is a battle field, but God is amazing in that He can use what seems to be nothing left but tatters of His Word to inspire His people to see His Truth.

I would suggest that you prepare to meet with God, and based upon the words that are still preserved in His Word, follow what it takes to be in His presence. Accept no substitute but the ALL MIGHTY. No warm and fuzzy, no nice nice, but the real melt like wax in His Presence, you know that one that turns Moses' hair to white. The one presence where Isaiah cries out in its presence, "Woe is my for I am unclean" The one where you know that you are in the Presence of Holy. The Holy One of Israel.

The reason I say this, is because until you read His Word through His eyes, you will not see the spirit is still alive and moving to make every Word of God come to pass.
 
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christus

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stone said:
from what i understand, Since the time of Moses, all jewish children were taught and memorized the torah, and what we have today is still the same. The septuagint or however you spell it, is the work of deception.
if it was deception. Rabbies from Israel wouldn't teach this, but they do!
 
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shmuel

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from what i understand, Since the time of Moses, all jewish children were taught and memorized the torah, and what we have today is still the same. The septuagint or however you spell it, is the work of deception.

Then how do you explain II Kiings 22:8-20?

If the septuaguint is deception then why do the NT writers quote it? Take a look at Acts 15:16-18. It is a quote from Amos 9:11-12. Compare the quote in Acts with the Masoretic text.
 
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Torah

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christus
Be careful of what you read and even be more careful of what you believe. There are many writhing about G-ds word with as many opinion about G-ds word. I am very careful about what books I read, and I must say I read very few books out side the Bible. When we read books we are allowing ourselves to become influence by that person thought, philosophies, & ideas.
Advice I have given my children as the went off to collage to “Learn” [lol] I would tell them “Don’t become so smart that you become stupid”.

2 things about the OT I would like to point out;

1) The Torah has been written the same from it’s beginning, and there is a way to tell if a Torah has been changed. I have seen 3 Torah and all were the same as the others. One was 200 years old from Southern part of France. Another was 300 years from western part of France, and the last one was over 400 years old and was from Egypt and all 3 were the same.

2} the Dead Sea scrolls, [It is on display in Israel] One of the scrolls was the scroll / book of Isaiah, and when compared to a modern writhing of the Book of Isaiah they were the same.

christus I would suggest that you be a little more selective in what you read.
Shalom:wave:
 
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shmuel

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1) The Torah has been written the same from it’s beginning, and there is a way to tell if a Torah has been changed.

Actually any written material from the time of Moses, the conquest, the judges, and the united monarchy has been editted at least for spelling.

One was 200 years old from Southern part of France. Another was 300 years from western part of France, and the last one was over 400 years old and was from Egypt and all 3 were the same.

The oldest complete manuscript of the Tanakh is the Lenigrad codex, which dates from around 1010 CE. We have complete copies of the NT that are hundres of years older.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/biblical_manuscripts/LeningradCodex.shtml

2} the Dead Sea scrolls, [It is on display in Israel] One of the scrolls was the scroll / book of Isaiah, and when compared to a modern writhing of the Book of Isaiah they were the same.

In fact, there are numerous differences between the Great Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic text. The differences are not great enough to alter any doctrine, but there are many differences nevertheless. In order to view the Great Isaiah Scroll and see an analysis please go to:

http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qumdir.htm

Consider the quote from the introduction:

After all variations are noted and taken into account and the reasons for them (lapses, spelling errors, simple human error in copying, dialectical difference, Aramaic environment etc.) are understood then it is easy to say with confidence that the Q text is substantially the same as the received text of the Book of Isaiah that we now read in our English Bible.

It is substantially the same as the received text, but still has errors and differences that need to be explained.
 
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christus

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1) Kri and Ktiv (קריא וכתיב) because the bible was spoken many years there were some versions..and the kri and ktiv is how you read and how you say it.

2) Tikuney Sofrim (תיקוני סופרים)- "Writer's Corrections"- in 18 places in the bible Hazal changed words. One example is that there was "curse your god" (or something like that in the book of Job) and they said that the word curse shouldn't be near the word "god" so they changed it to "bless your god".
 
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simchat_torah

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shmuel said:
Actually any written material from the time of Moses, the conquest, the judges, and the united monarchy has been editted at least for spelling.
Not true at all. There are only a small handful of changes, and it was either a single letter or individual word. Even the oldest texts dating several centuries b.c.e. match the masoratic texts perfectly.

The oldest complete manuscript of the Tanakh is the Lenigrad codex, which dates from around 1010 CE. We have complete copies of the NT that are hundres of years older.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/biblical_manuscripts/LeningradCodex.shtml
This is only partially true. There are thousands of manuscripts that predate the first century... but you are correct in saying they are not complete. However, the NT texts RADICALLY underwent changes (entire paragraphs, stories, parables, sentances) over the first 6 centuries. As well, no "complete manuscript" existed for a few hundred years post-first century c.e.

In fact, there are numerous differences between the Great Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic text. The differences are not great enough to alter any doctrine, but there are many differences nevertheless. In order to view the Great Isaiah Scroll and see an analysis please go to:

http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qumdir.htm

Consider the quote from the introduction:



It is substantially the same as the received text, but still has errors and differences that need to be explained.
this is an odd choice because even the Great Isaiah scroll varies from contemporary manuscripts found in the dead sea scrolls. The Isaiah manuscript was obviously redacted and is known to have underwent changes. However, older Isaiah scrolls and even those found as contemporaries in the Qumran communities are literally word for word the same as the Masoratic text.

Shalom,
Yafet
 
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simchat_torah

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Christus,

I found this article online and thought you would find it interesting:
Did the Scribes change the text of the Bible?
The Mechilta (Beshalach, Shirah ch. 6 on Exodus 15:7) lists eleven places in which the Biblical text used a euphemism (kinah hakatuv). For example, it says in Zechariah (2:12) "Whoever touches you, touches the apple of his eye." It should have said "touches the apple of My [i.e. G-d's] eye." However, out of respect for G-d, the text used a euphemism instead. There is no reason to believe that someone later changed the text of the Bible. Rather, the original text itself was written with a euphemism.
In Shemot Rabbah (13:1) we find that R' Yehoshua ben Levi quoted this same example from Zechariah but, rather than calling it a euphemism, he called it a "correction of the Scribes" (tikkun Sofrim). Similarly, in Bereshit Rabbah (49:7) we find his student, R' Shimon, giving the same explanation to the verse (Genesis 18:22), "And Abraham was still standing before G-d." R' Shimon says that really G-d was waiting for Abraham but, out of respect for G-d, there was a "correction of the Scribes." This explanation of R' Shimon is quoted by Rashi on that verse.
The question that remains is whether tikkun Sofrim means that scribes actually changed the wording of the Bible or is it really the same as a text using a euphemism (kinah hakatuv) but that the Scribes discovered and explained this euphemism? In other words, the Scribes fixed the understanding of the verse. Do R' Yehoshua ben Levi and R' Shimon agree or disagree with the Mechilta?


There is no reason to assume that they disagree. Indeed, the Rashba (quoted by R' Eliyahu Mizrachi on Genesis 18:22) explains that they do not disagree and that the change the Scribes made was to the understanding of the text. That is how they fixed the verse. Maharal (Gur Aryeh, there) agrees. R' Yosef Albo writes a little differently in his Sefer HaIkkarim (3:22):
The meaning is not that any person changed anything in the Torah, G-d forbid, because no one would forge a book and then say "I forged this" or "I changed this." How could they say that the Scribes changed it? Rather, the meaning is that... [the Torah spoke] like a scribe who changes his words out of respect for G-d."​
While some editions of Rashi (on Genesis 18:22) have him actually saying that the rabbis changed the text, manuscripts do not bear out this reading. It must have been added by a copyist who made a mistake. See the Berliner and Mossad HaRav Kook editions of Rashi and the Yefeh Toar on Bereshit Rabbah 49:7. Indeed, had earlier scholars known this they would not have been so confused on this issue. For example, see R' Avraham Bucrat's Sefer Zikaron on Rashi where he argues that Rashi believes that tikkun Sofrim means the same as kinah hakatuv but then stumbles over Rashi's language. However, we have found proof that Rashi understand tikkun Sofrim like the Rashba that it means that the Scribes fixed the meaning of the text. On Job (32:3) Rashi writes, "This is one of the verses in which the Scribes fixed the language of the text. It should have read, 'And they condemned G-d in their silence' but the text used a euphemism (kinah hakatuv)." Here we see clearly Rashi saying both that the text used a euphemism and that the Scribes fixed the language. Obviously, the Scribes fixed the language by explaining the text's true meaning without the euphemism. See also Rashi's commentary to Numbers 11:15. Ibn Ezra, at the end of his introduction to his commentary on the Torah, rejects the entire concept of tikkun Sofrim. See also his commentary to Numbers 11:15 and 12:12.
However, it should be noted that the Tanchuma (Beshalach 16) as we have it says that the Scribes actually changed the text of the Bible. No less than R' Azariah de Rossi, who was called a heretic by the Maharal and whose books were banned, testified that two manuscripts of Tanchuma in his possession did not have this passage (Me'or Einayim ch. 19). Only one rishon, the Aruch (s.v. Kabed, 1) quotes this tradition of the Tanchuma. While the Aruch believed that the Scribes did, on limited occasions, change a letter in the Torah - with the exception of Genesis 18:22, every case was the change of one letter - the overwhelming majority, as we have seen, did not believe this. The manuscript evidence has proven that the Aruch was himself, ironically, relying on a faulty text of the Tanchuma. (See also Responsa Radbaz no. 1020, vol. 3 no. 594 who poses many difficult questions to the Aruch).

Regarding words that are written one way but are read another way (kri uktiv) etc., Radak in his introduction to Joshua claims that these were due to different texts of the Bible. For this, he was sharply criticized by R' Yitzchak Abarbanel in his introduction to Jeremiah. Abarbanel write, "A scroll which has one letter missing is invalid. How much more so that many letters would be missing." Therefore, Abarbanel suggests that the reading (kri) was added by Ezra as an explanation to the writing (ktiv). However, this too was criticized by later scholars. The simple and most obvious explanation for kri and ktiv is that offered by the Maharal (Tiferet Yisrael ch. 66) and Radbaz (Responsum no. 1020, vol. 3 no. 594). The prophets who wrote their books included both kri and ktiv in them. Since, as some suggest, these books were revealed to Moshe at Sinai and then later to the prophets to say and write down, the kri and ktiv originate at Sinai. What this means is that the books were originally written with the kri and ktiv. In addition to this, Malbim in his introduction to Jeremiah boldly claims that the ktiv represents the simple meaning - the pshat - and the kri represents the exegetical meaning - the drash. Malbim follows through with this in his commentary and demonstrates this difference between pshat and drash. One who truly wishes to understand the Bible would do well to study it with the commentary of Malbim.
It seems to say that while certain Rabbis claimed a few small changes were made, these were most likely due to errors by a copyist as the earlier texts are actually the same as the copied texts. Considering the lengthy care a Sofer (Jewish Scribe) undertakes to copy the text of the Torah exactly letter for letter it seems highly unlikely that these changes took place at all. As well, the earliest texts do not reflect these changes. If a Sofer made a mistake with a single letter, they would throw the text away and start from scratch.

shalom,
Yafet
 
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simchat_torah

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Also...

looking at Kri and Ktiv in Hebrew, the only variance between the two words is a single relatively minor or auxiliary letter such as "vav" or "yud". Yes, it changes the meaning slightly, but it is most certainly the case that it was argued among the Soferim as to which spelling to use as they were nearly identical. Again, considering the most modern texts have not changed since the most ancient texts in these regards, I would not get too worried. Some Rabbinical scholars in later reflection debated which word should have properly been used in that section, but it was never actually changed.

-Yafet
 
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shmuel

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Not true at all. There are only a few small handful of changes, and it was either a single letter or individual word. Even the oldest texts dating several centuries b.c.e. match the masoratic texts perfectly.

Did you read what I wrote? I said materials written prior to the 9th century BCE were editted for spelling. The fact is that Hebrew did not use matres lectionis prior to the 9th century BCE, yet there is no portion of the Tanakh that is without these letters. The Torah, most of the former prophets, the writings of Shlomoh, and the psalms of David if they were written at their traditional dates were written without matres. The spelling was altered later.

This is only partially true. There are thousands of manuscripts that predate the first century.

Would you provide a link for these "thousands" of manuscripts.

However, older Isaiah scrolls and even those found as contemporaries in the Qumran communities are literally word for word the same as the Masoratic text.

Again, I ask you to provide a link with support for your claim.
 
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shmuel

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Issues regarding the text of the Tanakh are especially great in the book of Jeremiah. Please see:

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/jer.pdf

Quoting in part:

In case the terminology is unfamiliar to you, before proceeding any further we need
to review what exactly “MT” and “LXX” mean with respect to one another and the
Bible code. First a little history.

Prior to 1948, the manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible to which scholars had access
were all medieval, the earliest witness being the great manuscript Leningradensis
(the manuscript is also called B19 or L), which was dated by the copyist himself to
1009 A.D.! Hence, scholars who worked prior to the Dead Sea Scroll discoveries had
to try to figure out how the text of the Torah was transmitted using manuscripts that
were well over one thousand years behind the curve. This major manuscript is
considered the best example of what is known as the Masoretic Text, and was the
basis for the Hebrew text used in the mainstream Jewish community and the
academic study (university, seminary) of the Hebrew Bible until well into the 20th
century. The MT is the basis for the text used in Bible code research.

However, scholars did have another resource for the Hebrew Bible: the LXX. The
LXX is an ancient (pre-Christian era) Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. Having
this Greek translation was valuable since the Greek could be put back into Hebrew
(“retroverted”) so as to form a pretty good guess as to what the Hebrew text from
which the LXX was created. The process wasn’t perfect, but it was helpful. When
the LXX was retroverted and studied by scholars, however, something very obvious
came to light: the Hebrew text of MT was not the same as the text used to create
LXX. This was obvious from places where the Greek read something that, when
retroverted, could not be matched in MT. Hence scholars had two Hebrew Bibles on
their hands.

They actually had three counting the Samaritan Pentateuch (SP), but we will skip that for the sake of this article. The SP is also witnessed in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

So, prior to 1948, scholars had incontrovertible proof of two Hebrew Bibles, but no
actual Hebrew manuscripts older than 1009 A.D. (B19 /L). There were other
problems, though. In terms of the Hebrew manuscript material that was in existence
(B19/L and other manuscripts), no manuscript agreed with any other 100 percent of the time. There were no identical manuscripts of any meaningful length.

This set of circumstances naturally raised questions: How soon after the biblical books were
written and copying began did different versions arise? Were the different version
proof of different editions of the Bible – not just copyist errors perpetuated through
time? How faithful were medieval manuscripts to the “original” text? Would any
Hebrew text ever be discovered that turned out to be the text used to create the
LXX?

Scholars got significant help in answering these questions in 1948, when the Dead
Sea Scroll (DSS) discoveries came to light. When tested by Carbon-14 and by
analysis of handwriting styles, the DSS date anywhere from 300 B.C. to the first
century A.D. Overnight scholars jumped back in time by over a thousand years to
learn more about how the Hebrew Bible came to be.
For our purposes in this article, what was significant about the scrolls was that, while
many of them matched the MT that was known from medieval manuscripts, others
did not—they matched the LXX or the SP.2 This discovery evidenced several things:

1) There was a remarkable accuracy in the transmission of the Hebrew text.

2) There was evidence in some biblical books (notably Joshua and Jeremiah) for
more than one edition of the book as late as 300 BC.

3) The LXX was a real Hebrew text—the ancient Jews had a smaller version of
what we have today with so many English Bibles that are not identical. The DSS
proved that a plurality of texts existed as early as 300 B.C.

4) There was no evidence that this textual plurality was viewed as a bad thing.
The people at Qumran preserved all the texts; they did not censor any (and
so they were not “MT zealots”).

This brings us back to the Jeremiah problem. In the context of the above, the
reader should know that the MT of Jeremiah (the one used by Bible code
researchers) is 15% longer than the LXX of Jeremiah. This amounts to roughly 6000
words. At an average of four letters per word, that adds up to 24,000 letter
differences between the two versions of the Hebrew Bible.

According to standard text-critical rules, which are based on logic and the fact that the scribes held the
Scriptures to be sacred, the MT is arguably not the original text in many cases. This
is because a scribe who considered Jeremiah to be holy material would be far more
likely to add letters and words than he would to eliminate letters or words. Hence
one of the most familiar text-critical rules: “the shorter text is more likely to be
original than the longer text”—that is, when you have two texts of the same holy
document, the longer one has likely been added to rather than the shorter one
having suffered deletions at the hands of faithful scribes. This would mean that MT
Jeremiah, the text of the Bible code, has a good bit of un-original material in it.
 
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shmuel

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As far as I know the oldest material that can be said to contain a Biblical text are the Ketef Hinnom silver scrolls that contain the Birkat Kohanim. These scrolls date from the 7th century BCE. If the Torah is dated to the period 1200-1400 BCE depending on whether you favor an early date or a late date for the Exodus then there is a 500-800 year gap between the source and the preserved inscriptions.

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=17741
 
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christus

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simchat_torah said:
Christus,

I found this article online and thought you would find it interesting:
It seems to say that while certain Rabbis claimed a few small changes were made, these were most likely due to errors by a copyist as the earlier texts are actually the same as the copied texts. Considering the lengthy care a Sofer (Jewish Scribe) undertakes to copy the text of the Torah exactly letter for letter it seems highly unlikely that these changes took place at all. As well, the earliest texts do not reflect these changes. If a Sofer made a mistake with a single letter, they would throw the text away and start from scratch.

shalom,
Yafet
And what with Tikun Sofrim?
 
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christus

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simchat_torah said:
Also...

looking at Kri and Ktiv in Hebrew, the only variance between the two words is a single relatively minor or auxiliary letter such as "vav" or "yud". Yes, it changes the meaning slightly, but it is most certainly the case that it was argued among the Soferim as to which spelling to use as they were nearly identical. Again, considering the most modern texts have not changed since the most ancient texts in these regards, I would not get too worried. Some Rabbinical scholars in later reflection debated which word should have properly been used in that section, but it was never actually changed.

-Yafet

But if God never wrong so how there are mistakes in the bible?
 
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