[open] EO/MJ chit-chat

[eoe]

Come in here with a faith Icon that states that Non-Trinitarian Messianic Judaism is the religion of the Apostles and the 1st century Christians and I will call you to the carpet on it.

The truth is that some MJ's ignore all of the evidence of what 1st century Christianity was and substitute their own ideas all the while claiming that they are following the original faith.

It is perfectly clear to anyone that is willing to actually read the early Christian writings that this is simply untrue. Messianic Judaism, while not pagan in itself, has a direct link to wicca in both were recently invented and both claim to have direct ties to the past. Neither do in any way shape or form. Both are completely free to personal interpretation and both completely ignore any evidence that is counter to their claims.


Here are the words of a REAL 1st century believer:

Chapter IV.—Beware of these heretics.

I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that ye also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this. But if these things were done by our Lord only in appearance, then am I also only in appearance bound. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] he who is near to the sword is near to God; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with God; provided only he be so in the name of Jesus Christ. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him, Comp. Rom. viii. 17.
He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me. Comp. Phil. iv. 13.

I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that ye also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from these beasts in the shape of men, from whom you must not only turn away, but even flee from them. Only you must pray for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance. For if the Lord were in the body in appearance only, and were crucified in appearance only, then am I also bound in appearance only. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] I endure all things for Christ, not in appearance only, but in reality, that I may suffer together with Him, while He Himself inwardly strengthens me; for of myself I have no such ability.

Chapter VII.—Let us stand aloof from such heretics.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Chapter VIII.—Let nothing be done without the bishop.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either 90 by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid

That is real 1st century Christianity.

 

[MariaRegina]

Chapter IV.—Beware of these heretics.

I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that ye also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this. But if these things were done by our Lord only in appearance, then am I also only in appearance bound. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] he who is near to the sword is near to God; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with God; provided only he be so in the name of Jesus Christ. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him, Comp. Rom. viii. 17.
He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me. Comp. Phil. iv. 13.

I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that ye also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from these beasts in the shape of men, from whom you must not only turn away, but even flee from them. Only you must pray for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance. For if the Lord were in the body in appearance only, and were crucified in appearance only, then am I also bound in appearance only. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] I endure all things for Christ, not in appearance only, but in reality, that I may suffer together with Him, while He Himself inwardly strengthens me; for of myself I have no such ability.

Quote:
Chapter VII.—Let us stand aloof from such heretics.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.
Quote:
Chapter VIII.—Let nothing be done without the bishop.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either 90 by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid
That is real 1st century Christianity.

Excellent passages. For the benefit of the non-Orthodox Christians, could you kindly cite your reference here along with the url?

Thanks.

 

[eoe]

Those were excerpts from St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter to Smyrna. Year 107ad. You can find the letter in both long and short forms housed at the Calvin College (uber protestant) library ccel.org.

For those who don't know - Ignatius was a direct disciple of John and was the third Bishop of Antioch. He was martyred in the Colosseum in Rome by being fed to lions.

 

[MariaRegina]

Sometimes the truth hurts, but the Truth will set us free.

Christ our Lord and God gave us the Truth.

He is the Way, the Light and the Truth, who came on this earth to set us free from the bondage of sin.

If we say that there is more than one Truth, then we would be believing a lie and make God a liar, but God can neither deceive or be deceived. Neither is Our God capricious.

We believe that Christ came on this earth to share the unchanging Good News of the Gospel. This faith is unchanging and for all men at all times. That is why it is called 'catholic' or universal.

Our faith is also Holy because the Holy Spirit has always guided us first through the Holy Apostles and then through the bishops and priests in an apostolic succession which can be traced to the Holy Apostles and Christ.

We are therefore not cut-root Christians with no historical claim.

 

[MariaRegina]

Oh, on the humorous side, there is this song, which Irene of PsalmNotes posted:

To the tune of the Beatles' "Yesterday"

HERESY

Heresy. I'm not as Orthodox as I ought to be.
Arius is looking good to me.
Oh I believe in heresy.

Nestorius. I don't understand what's all the fuss.
And what's the problem with Sabellius Oh I believe in heresy.

--chorus--
Doctrine, it just gets in the way of unity.
Why can't we all live in peace and harmony.

Heresy. Canon Law says it's no good for me.
Can you help me spell "apostasy"?
Oh I believe in heresy.

 

[MariaRegina]

Since we were talking about Heresy ...

Here is another one.

Taken from here
http://southern- orthodoxy. blogspot. com/2007/ 06/jesus- loves-me- this-i-know. html

To the tune of "Supercalafragalist icexpialadocius" ...

Um diddle diddle um diddle ay
Um diddle diddle um diddle ay

Superchristological and Homoousiosis
Even though the sound of them is something quite atrocious
You can always count on them to anathemize your Gnosis
Superchristological and Homoousiosis

Um diddle diddle um diddle ay
Um diddle diddle um diddle ay

Now Origen and Arius were quite a clever pair.
Immutable divinity make Logos out of air.
But then one day Saint Nicholas gave Arius a slap--
and told them if they can't recant, they ought to shut their trap!

[chorus] Oh, Superchristological and Homoousiosis. ..

One Prosopon, two Ousia are in one Hypostasis.
At Chalcedon this formula gave our faith its basis.
You can argue that you don't know what this means,
But don't you go and try to say there's a "Physis" in between!

[chorus] Oh, Superchristological and Homoousiosis. ..

Um diddle diddle um diddle ay
Um diddle diddle um diddle ay

Now freedom and autonomy are something to be praised,
But when it comes to human sin, these words must be rephrased,
For Pelagius was too confident that we could work it out--
And Augustine said *massa damnata* is what it's all about.

[chorus] Oh, Superchristological and Homoousiosis. ..

Heresies are arguments that you might find attractive,
But just remember in this case the Church is quite reactive.
So play it safe and memorize these words we sing together,
'Cause in the end you'll find, my friend, that we may live forever.

[chorus] Oh, Superchristological and Homoousiosis
Even though the sound of them is something quite atrocious
You can always count on them to anathematize your Gnosis
Superchristological and Homoousiosis

Lyrics by Dan Idzikowski

 

[MariaRegina]

Oh, and since some people in this thread believe that Christ was just a man, as did Arius, there is this hymn verse sung on the Feast of St. Nicholas

Arius, heretic most hated,
stated that Jesus was created.
Seeing that he fell from grace,
Nicholas punched him in the face.
Holy father Nicholas!

Rdr. TJ

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Oh, and since some people in this thread believe that Christ was just a man, as did Arius, there is this hymn verse sung on the Feast of St. Nicholas

Arius, heretic most hated,
stated that Jesus was created.
Seeing that he fell from grace,
Nicholas punched him in the face.
Holy father Nicholas!

Rdr. TJ

 

[MariaRegina]

Oh dear,

People may misunderstand my use of the term "heretic" and "heresy."

We wouldn't want that, now, would we?

Okay, then the term "heretic" is usually reserved for those former Orthodox bishops and priests who have departed from the Holy Orthodox Faith and are preaching erroneous doctrines, and "heresy" is that erroneous teaching which is far from the doctrines preached by Christ and His Apostles.

So, since no one here in this thread is an Orthodox Bishop or Priest who is spouting erroneous ideas, there should be no worries, should there be? :o

Yes, this rhetoric may seem to be ambiguous because all of our sentences may carry a double meaning despite the best intentions of the writer if the reader wishes to infer that. However, in that case, the onus is on the reader and not the writer.




Remember the words of Christ our God and our Just and Merciful Judge: "Judge not, lest ye yourselves be judged."

 

[Yahudim]

Soooo...

I'm supposed to feel welcome here?
Wow. I think Ill just go back to where I came from.

 

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Soooo...

I'm supposed to feel welcome here?
Wow. I think Ill just go back to where I came from.

S/He has a point, guys. I've been watching this thread.....

 

[stone]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know we have differences, blessings to those that try to see past the differences and view the heart.

We didn't come here to debate. This was started so we could compare and talk about those things that come from jewish traditions.

Apparently there are some here that are only interested in maintaning the partition that separates. and i mean on both sides of the wall.

 

[E.C.]

Mods!

Please close this thread as soon as possible!

Thanks much.

 

[kamikat]

Closed at the request of the OP