[open] EO/MJ chit-chat

[E.C.]

Has this been peaceful?

 

[MariaRegina]

Has this been peaceful?

Likewise important, has this discussion been truthful?

Remember Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

 

[repentant]

So true!

A lot of people don't believe in miracles; however, in the Orthodox Church miracles abound.

A few years ago, in Santa Barbara, California, a Roman Catholic lady visited an Orthodox Church and decided to partake of Holy Communion even though the Priest had made an announcement that only those baptized and chrismated Orthodox Christians who if they were married, had been married in the Church, who had recently been to Holy Confession, and who had observed the pre-communion fast and Fast Days of the Church, should dare approach the Chalice.

Anyway, she still dared to approach carefully watching what others did so as to blend in and not be detected. Her ruse was flawless and the Priest held the spoon and pronounced, "The Servant of God" . . . and as she started to pronounce her name, suddenly a ball of fire emerged from the Holy Chalice and flew toward her.

Her eyes opened wide and her mouth grimaced in a picture of horror. The Priest noticed her change in appearance from one of faith to one of total panic, and asked her if she were Orthodox. She confessed that she was a Catholic. He gently told her to kiss the Holy Chalice which she did with Holy Fear then he said he would like to speak with her after the Divine Liturgy. She did so, and within six months she was chrismated and received Holy Communion as a true Orthodox Believer.

Wow, that is amazing.

I don't know if you have ever read about St. Nephon...but there is one story in his book similar to this, well similar in that it involved people receiving Communion unworthily. He was sitting in the Church, and observed the people in line to receive Communion. He noticed that some of them looked radiant, and some of them looked black or dark. Standing next to the Priest was an angel, and when the radiant people receieved Communion, nothing happened..but when the dark people went to receive Communion, the angel grabbed the Body and Blood off the spoon..

 

[ufonium2]

However the impression I've gotten here and from some other places is that the services are liturgical and like traditional Jewish services - do you know which is more common. Are there different types of MJ services? Thanks!

Obviously this is second-hand and totally anecdotal, but the MJs I've talked to have all been on the "Pentecostal-esque" side of the aisle, even down to spending inordinate amounts of thought and energy trying to figure out when and how the rapture was going to happen. So I'm curious, too. Anyone?

 

[E.C.]

Likewise important, has this discussion been truthful?

Remember Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

True.

So I guess I'm asking: has this thread been a spot of discussion, or rock throwing?

 

[Henaynei]

Obviously this is second-hand and totally anecdotal, but the MJs I've talked to have all been on the "Pentecostal-esque" side of the aisle, even down to spending inordinate amounts of thought and energy trying to figure out when and how the rapture was going to happen. So I'm curious, too. Anyone?

MJism covers a wide spectrum as those who come into this community come from a wide variety of backgrounds as pertains to their approach to worship.... therefore congregations run from the pentecostal to the charismatic, from Baptist to other Protestant types, from various churchs to communities that are much more Jewish and from Jewish communities that run from reform (rather liberal) to orthodox....

True.

So I guess I'm asking: has this thread been a spot of discussion, or rock throwing?

I haven't seen any rocks, caught a pebble or two, but nothing so big as to make me vary my gait or have to duck

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Philothei]

It is mostly a monologue of sorts.... just not too much of a conversation. My better half said he would like to participate in this but got involved with different projects and he has no time... I too got caught up with work.... But I will post sometime later on this week for sure.

Philothei

 

[eoe]

MJism covers a wide spectrum as those who come into this community come from a wide variety of backgrounds as pertains to their approach to worship.... therefore congregations run from the pentecostal to the charismatic, from Baptist to other Protestant types, from various churchs to communities that are much more Jewish and from Jewish communities that run from reform (rather liberal) to orthodox....

So it is basically whatever the practitioner wants it to be right?

 

[Philothei]

.... becoming an Apostle did not make one a Christian. ALL the Apostles were Jews and as I have shown in a previous post, also kept Torah (?). Sha'ul himself proclaimed at the end of his life that he had been zealous for the Torah (where?)all his life and had never transgressed the traditions as well



Sorry to disagree but this is completely wrong.
Read the following article please:




"St John Chrysostom was not really writing against Jews, but against Judaising Christians. There were Christians who would attend Jewish services and prayer meetings, and adopt Jewish customs, and say how superior they were to Christian ones. He rejects their approach, and compares Jewish theology and practice with Christian, trying to show the superiority of Christian beliefs and practices, and their incompatibility with each other.
It is quite clear that he thinks Christianity is superior to Judaism, and that Christians should therefore not attend Jewish services and prayer meetings or adopt Jewish customs. But is this "antisemitic", or does it justify antisemitism? Again, I would say it is not and it does not. Theological disagreement is not antisemitism, even when expressed in very rude language. And theological differences do not justify either pogroms or genocide. One could also look at the thing from the other side. In our day there are still Judaising Christians, and there are also Christianising Jews. These Jews call themselves "Messianic Jews". They have grown up as Jews, and call themselves Jews, but they believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They continue to call themselves Jews, but like to call themselves "completed Jews". Orthodox Jews regard them as apostates and heretics, and some of the web sites that denounce them as such use rhetoric that differs little from that of St John Chrysostom against Judaising Christians in the 4th century. "

Also St. John being a Jew was not excatly what you would call a practicing Jew either...and he was an apostle.
For more of the article read this:

http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/antisem.htm


God bless,
Philothei

 

[Henaynei]

So it is basically whatever the practitioner wants it to be right?

to the earnest lament of many it often seems to be so - but to give them all their due, remember that although itself over 2000 years old, the resurgence of MJism is not even 50 years old and it's adherents both are spread all over the world and come from vastly divergent backgrounds.
That is to say that it is very young and has a LOT of growing up to do. Something that is not easy when you also have both camps (Christians and Jews) insisting you are apostate and a threat to the salvation of others.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Henaynei]

.... becoming an Apostle did not make one a Christian. ALL the Apostles were Jews and as I have shown in a previous post, also kept Torah (?). Sha'ul himself proclaimed at the end of his life that he had been zealous for the Torah (where?)all his life and had never transgressed the traditions as well



Sorry to disagree but this is completely wrong.
Read the following article please:




"St John Chrysostom was not really writing against Jews, but against Judaizing Christians. There were Christians who would attend Jewish services and prayer meetings, and adopt Jewish customs, and say how superior they were to Christian ones. He rejects their approach, and compares Jewish theology and practice with Christian, trying to show the superiority of Christian beliefs and practices, and their incompatibility with each other.

It is quite clear that he thinks Christianity is superior to Judaism, and that Christians should therefore not attend Jewish services and prayer meetings or adopt Jewish customs. But is this "antisemitic", or does it justify antisemitism? Again, I would say it is not and it does not. Theological disagreement is not antisemitism, even when expressed in very rude language. And theological differences do not justify either pogroms or genocide. One could also look at the thing from the other side. In our day there are still Judaizing Christians, and there are also Christianising Jews. These Jews call themselves "Messianic Jews". They have grown up as Jews, and call themselves Jews, but they believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They continue to call themselves Jews, but like to call themselves "completed Jews". Orthodox Jews regard them as apostates and heretics, and some of the web sites that denounce them as such use rhetoric that differs little from that of St John Chrysostom against Judaizing Christians in the 4th century. "

Also St. John being a Jew was not exactly what you would call a practicing Jew either...and he was an apostle.
For more of the article read this:

http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/antisem.htm


God bless,
Philothei

Shalom Philothei,

I gave the scripture references for those things you have highlighted in posts that followed that one - although it was a couple of days later, sorry - but I know you will find them

Also, while I strongly disagree with the accuracy of your source I do see where he is correct in stating that anyone going around touting that their "brand" of practice in service to HaShem (G-d) is somehow superior because of an adherence to some supposed vaunted set of rules that makes them holier or more special... this is wrong no matter who does it.... also setting a set of rules as the way to true salvation is totally wrong as well. What was wrong was not that Jewish or gentile believers continued to keep the commands that G-d has said are "forever" but that some taught that one had to follow those commands *before* being able to access salvation (THAT is the definition of Judaizing, a term never found in the scriptures), which we all here agree is a free gift from G-d

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Monica child of God 1]

to the earnest lament of many it often seems to be so - but to give them all their due, remember that although itself over 2000 years old, the resurgence of MJism is not even 50 years old and it's adherents both are spread all over the world and come from vastly divergent backgrounds.

Wait, what is over 2,000 years old? I might be misunderstanding but it seems like you are saying that MJism is over 2,000 years old. Can you give evidence that MJism--ethnicly Jewish people who believe in Jesus as the Messiah keeping the Torah--has been practiced for over 2,000 years? I know that early Jewish believers in Christ kept aspects of the law if they chose. But with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, the general expelling of these people from Jewish synagogues and the growth and development of Christian worship in the Church, I am hard pressed to believe that MJism was practiced between say 400 AD and 1800 AD.

And again, part of my issue with MJism is that it is a recreation of something. A piecing together of what might have been when the Orthodox Church has been in continuous existance from Pentecost. It has both Jewish and Gentile elements. It is a seamless garment held together by the Holy Spirit through century after century of persecution. To turn from this miracle (yes, I think of the existance of the OC as a miracle) in order to recreate something seems like digging cisterns when there is a ready source of living water.

I know that I can say this because I have experienced Orthodox (Christian) worship. It is authenticly and effortlessly ancient yet relevant to modern people living in all parts of the world.

M.

 

[Henaynei]

Wait, what is over 2,000 years old? I might be misunderstanding but it seems like you are saying that MJism is over 2,000 years old. Can you give evidence that MJism--ethnically Jewish people who believe in Jesus as the Messiah keeping the Torah--has been practiced for over 2,000 years?

no, what scripture shows is that "ethnically Jewish" believers continued to keep Torah and the only concrete evidence that they stopped any portion of it is their flight from Jerusalem during the Bar Kokhba Revolt (because they could not follow one who claimed to be the Messiah and thus were cast as traitors during Israel's last major attempt to free herself from Roman tyranny before the final dispersion). Removed from both the Temple and the Jewish community Torah observance in the believing Jewish community continued until outlawed in the 3rd century by Constantinian law, in a not dissimilar manner as it was during the first great dispersion.

What I *did* say is that the resurgance toward seeking this original model is not yet fully 100 years old.

I know that early Jewish believers in Christ kept aspects of the law if they chose. But with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, the general expelling of these people from Jewish synagogues and the growth and development of Christian worship in the Church, I am hard pressed to believe that MJism was practiced between say 400 AD and 1800 AD.

you are right in that the numbers of practicing MJs was vastly diminished to a nearly extinguished number by these factors.

And again, part of my issue with MJism is that it is a recreation of something. A piecing together of what might have been when the Orthodox Church has been in continuous existence from Pentecost. It has both Jewish and Gentile elements.

why would you have an issue with believers trying to recreate the original model, even *if* you are convinced that you have that model? What challenge is to you if we do not agree that your model is fully the original model and that the recreation of the original model is necessary for the fulfilment of prophesy? I am certainly not trying to convince you to the contrary of your beliefs.

It is a seamless garment held together by the Holy Spirit through century after century of persecution. To turn from this miracle (yes, I think of the existence of the OC as a miracle) in order to recreate something seems like digging cisterns when there is a ready source of living water.

dear sister, I doubt anyone of the MJs participating in this thread are trying to get you to "turn from" your faith and practice. I have no doubt that the continued existence of the OC through it's ages is indeed a miracle. G-d is full of them.

As to water sources..... I think most MJs feel that the move toward a mature and authentic MJism is more akin to reopening an ancient ancestoral and G-d given well that others had deliberately shut with debris and sand .... and that it is from the long hidden-from-view flow from this well that the waters of your cistern, and all the others, have always been refreshed....

I know that I can say this because I have experienced Orthodox (Christian) worship. It is authenticity and effortlessly ancient yet relevant to modern people living in all parts of the world.

A very wise minister I once knew once said that a man with an experience is not often moved by an argument.... and I woud be both unloving and unwise to entertain any thought of challenging your faith and experience.

but I have to totally reject that premise of the Laws of an Eternal Omnicient HaShem, given to those He appointed as His people "forever," Laws He also said were eternal, that these Laws and the practice of them, as G-d gave them, are anything less than intensely relevant to modern people living in all parts of the world.

For it was always His intent that the Jewish people would take His Law, His instruction, to the utmost parts of the earth. Obeying G-d according to the Laws/instructions He gave as immutable and eternal has never been more necessary, more relevant or more liberating than it is today JMHO, but not mine only

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Removed from both the Temple and the Jewish community Torah observance in the believing Jewish community continued until outlawed in the 3rd century by Constantinian law, in a not dissimilar manner as it was during the first great dispersion.

Can you provide information or citation of this? Re: the bolded portion, can you give more information? What is the first dispersion.

why would you have an issue with believers trying to recreate the original model, even *if* you are convinced that you have that model? What challenge is to you if we do not agree that your model is fully the original model and that the recreation of the original model is necessary for the fulfilment of prophesy?

Okay, I am going to say this in the clearest way I know how but I apologize in advance because I ususally try to be more diplomatic about such things. The issue I have is related to the general problem I have with Christians making stuff up in order to worship God in a way most palatable to them. The western convention of protestantism has turned Christianity in to a cafeteria where people pick and choose what they like best and what makes sense to them based on their own reason. Please forgive me for being blunt, but I see MJism as another flavor of this phenomenon. This fracturing of Christianity based on preference is in my view undisciplined and immature.

Now in saying this, I do not in any way feel that MJism is a threat to anything. Orthodox Christianity will continue. If we survived the 20th century when more Orthodox were martyred that at any other time (~20 million I believe), we can survive anything. That isn't pride talking--it is faith in the Holy Spirit having witnessed His work in knowing people who survived with their faith intact. This is the Church of the martyrs, those who witnessed under Nero and Diocletian to those who witnessed under Stalin. It was Orthodox Christians who gathered up their bones and proclaimed the Lord's death until He comes at the places where they were born into the Kingdom. As we sing in one of our hymns, "This is the Faith of the Apostles, this is the Faith of the Fathers, this is the Faith of the Orthodox, this is the Faith which has established the Universe!" I guess I lament believers who through ignorance (willed or otherwise) remain in schism from the fullness of the Faith.

Have you read the Martyrdom of Polycarp? Polycarp was a bishop ordained by the Apostle John. If you haven't, you should read it if for no other reason than to round your knowledge of early Christianity.

I am certainly not trying to convince you to the contrary of your beliefs.
dear sister, I doubt anyone of the MJs participating in this thread are trying to get you to "turn from" your faith and practice. I have no doubt that the continued existence of the OC through it's ages is indeed a miracle. G-d is full of them.

and I am not trying to convice you to do anything. I am only pointing out the incongruities that I see.

As to water sources..... I think most MJs feel that the move toward a mature and authentic MJism is more akin to reopening an ancient ancestoral and G-d given well that others had deliberately shut with debris and sand .... and that it is from the long hidden-from-view flow from this well that the waters of your cistern, and all the others, have always been refreshed....

See, I don't think you can recreate Christianity that is authentic and ancient. There seems to be a whole lot of guess work involved in what you guys are trying to do. At least with Jews who want to rebuild the Temple there is a precident (the building of the 2nd temple) a mandate and a plan. With MJism, there is this mishmosh based on...what? Someone mentioned earlier doing archeological digs to find what Jewish Christians worship and belief would have been like if things didn't happen the way they did. But they did. The Holy Spirit has been faithful in leading the Church and today what you have is Orthodoxy. No dig necessary.

And the claim that MJism is a hidden well that supplies Orthodoxy is not something anyone who knows the Orthodox Church would believe. Orthodoxy has a contiuous 2,000 year history; MJ is a 50 year old movement. Orthodoxy has documentation of its link directly to the Apostles; MJs have to do a archeological dig. Orthodox are clear on what we believe; MJs differ on such basic issues as the Trinity, the very existance of the Godhead. Orthodoxy has an established tradition of worship that can be traced back to the early Church; MJs are still working on what MJ worship is. No, we are not supplied by MJism. This is the Faith that establised the universe.

A very wise minister I once knew once said that a man with an experience is not often moved by an argument.... and I woud be both unloving and unwise to entertain any thought of challenging your faith and experience.

Which is why you should visit an Orthodox Church. It would help you to understand what we are talking about: the link to Temple Judaism, the authenticity and the antiquity. I have been to more than one MJ worship service and it helps me in knowing where you all are coming from.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Too blunt?

M.

 

[eoe]

to the earnest lament of many it often seems to be so - but to give them all their due, remember that although itself over 2000 years old, the resurgence of MJism is not even 50 years old and it's adherents both are spread all over the world and come from vastly divergent backgrounds.
That is to say that it is very young and has a LOT of growing up to do. Something that is not easy when you also have both camps (Christians and Jews) insisting you are apostate and a threat to the salvation of others.

So it is much like Wiccans insisting that they are just like the olde tyme pagans right? Invent it as you go, revise history as you wish and simply "know in your heart" that this is the way "they must have done it" all the while ignoring any shred of evidence that point to anything that differs?

I really have to know how it is that you can ignore people like Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp and the rest that *actually were* 1st century leaders and knew the faith better than any. These two in particular were direct disciples of John the beloved. How can you ignore them when they are diametrically opposed to what it is that many MJ's teach?

The fact is that there is quite alot of information about the way that things really were back then and there is no reason to speculate.

There is an absolute truth. There is a faith once delivered. Christ has protected his Church and there is no need to rediscover anything. The One Church is still alive and well and needs no alteration, addition or subtraction. It is the Pillar of Truth and has stood since the day of Pentecost.

 

[Philothei]

Shalom Philothei,

I gave the scripture references for those things you have highlighted in posts that followed that one - although it was a couple of days later, sorry - but I know you will find them

Also, while I strongly disagree with the accuracy of your source I do see where he is correct in stating that anyone going around touting that their "brand" of practice in service to HaShem (G-d) is somehow superior because of an adherence to some supposed vaunted set of rules that makes them holier or more special... this is wrong no matter who does it.... also setting a set of rules as the way to true salvation is totally wrong as well. What was wrong was not that Jewish or gentile believers continued to keep the commands that G-d has said are "forever" but that some taught that one had to follow those commands *before* being able to access salvation (THAT is the definition of Judaizing, a term never found in the scriptures), which we all here agree is a free gift from G-d

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Although I agree somehow and understand what you are saying I am still at a loss of your position. Do MJ accept Jesus as a son of God? Do they believe in the Holy Trinity?

Forgive me.

God bless,
Philothei

 

[MariaRegina]

Great post Monica!

Okay, I am going to say this in the clearest way I know how but I apologize in advance because I ususally try to be more diplomatic about such things. The issue I have is related to the general problem I have with Christians making stuff up in order to worship God in a way most palatable to them. The western convention of protestantism has turned Christianity in to a cafeteria where people pick and choose what they like best and what makes sense to them based on their own reason. Please forgive me for being blunt, but I see MJism as another flavor of this phenomenon. This fracturing of Christianity based on preference is in my view undisciplined and immature.

Now in saying this, I do not in any way feel that MJism is a threat to anything. Orthodox Christianity will continue. If we survived the 20th century when more Orthodox were martyred that at any other time (~20 million I believe), we can survive anything. That isn't pride talking--it is faith in the Holy Spirit having witnessed His work in knowing people who survived with their faith intact. This is the Church of the martyrs, those who witnessed under Nero and Diocletian to those who witnessed under Stalin. It was Orthodox Christians who gathered up their bones and proclaimed the Lord's death until He comes at the places where they were born into the Kingdom. As we sing in one of our hymns, "This is the Faith of the Apostles, this is the Faith of the Fathers, this is the Faith of the Orthodox, this is the Faith which has established the Universe!" I guess I lament believers who through ignorance (willed or otherwise) remain in schism from the fullness of the Faith.

Have you read the Martyrdom of Polycarp? Polycarp was a bishop ordained by the Apostle John. If you haven't, you should read it if for no other reason than to round your knowledge of early Christianity.

St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp became friends, and both were mentored by St. John. When St. Ignatius was on his way to Rome to be martyred, he wrote to St. Polycarp encouraging him in the faith.

It is interesting that St. Ignatius was the little Hebrew child who sat on Christ's lap. He was mentored in the faith by St. John the Theologian (who was no more than 15 at the time of the Resurrection of Christ). So, it is safe to assume that St. John was about 11 to 13 years older than St. Ignatius.

See, I don't think you can recreate Christianity that is authentic and ancient. There seems to be a whole lot of guess work involved in what you guys are trying to do. At least with Jews who want to rebuild the Temple there is a precident (the building of the 2nd temple) a mandate and a plan. With MJism, there is this mishmosh based on...what? Someone mentioned earlier doing archeological digs to find what Jewish Christians worship and belief would have been like if things didn't happen the way they did. But they did. The Holy Spirit has been faithful in leading the Church and today what you have is Orthodoxy. No dig necessary.

And the claim that MJism is a hidden well that supplies Orthodoxy is not something anyone who knows the Orthodox Church would believe. Orthodoxy has a contiuous 2,000 year history; MJ is a 50 year old movement. Orthodoxy has documentation of its link directly to the Apostles; MJs have to do a archeological dig. Orthodox are clear on what we believe; MJs differ on such basic issues as the Trinity, the very existance of the Godhead. Orthodoxy has an established tradition of worship that can be traced back to the early Church; MJs are still working on what MJ worship is. No, we are not supplied by MJism. This is the Faith that establised the universe.

Which is why you should visit an Orthodox Church. It would help you to understand what we are talking about: the link to Temple Judaism, the authenticity and the antiquity. I have been to more than one MJ worship service and it helps me in knowing where you all are coming from.

M.

 

[Henaynei]

Too blunt?

M.

not at all -- just too busy.... will try to get back later this weekend

Shabbat Shalomom ii

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Henaynei]

So it is much like Wiccans insisting that they are just like the olde tyme pagans right? Invent it as you go, revise history as you wish and simply "know in your heart" that this is the way "they must have done it" all the while ignoring any shred of evidence that point to anything that differs?

I really have to know how it is that you can ignore people like Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp and the rest that *actually were* 1st century leaders and knew the faith better than any. These two in particular were direct disciples of John the beloved. How can you ignore them when they are diametrically opposed to what it is that many MJ's teach?

The fact is that there is quite alot of information about the way that things really were back then and there is no reason to speculate.

There is an absolute truth. There is a faith once delivered. Christ has protected his Church and there is no need to rediscover anything. The One Church is still alive and well and needs no alteration, addition or subtraction. It is the Pillar of Truth and has stood since the day of Pentecost.

I, as an MJ, was invited here for a discussion and fellowship.

I did not come here to be compared to pagans. I will not disgrace your forum with an attempt to argue or justify a response to such a statement.

With all due respect I now take my leave and unsubscribe to this thread.

May the G-d of Avraham, Yitzkakh and Yaacov grant you a generous heart and abundant wisdom according to His mercy.

b'Shalom
Henaynei